Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: calypso24 on August 15, 2024, 04:31:37 pm

Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: b789 on November 08, 2024, 04:49:51 pm
You don't fill in any forms they send you.

Respond with the following:

Quote
Dear Gladstones Solicitors,

Re: Letter of Claim dated 18th October 2024

I refer to your letter of claim.

I confirm that my address for service for the time being, assuming you don’t faff about and delay any claim, is as follows, and any older address you may hold must be erased from your records:

[MY ADDRESS]

The alleged debt is disputed and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

I note that the amount being claimed has increased by a hugely exaggerated amount which the Government called “extorting money from motorists.” Don’t send me your usual blather about that.

I have two questions, and under the PAP I am entitled to specific answers:

1. Am I to understand that the additional £70 represents what you lot dress up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this nett or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?

2. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on November 08, 2024, 04:11:01 pm
Hello

Thank you for the advice so far on this one.

As predicted in a previous reply, a solicitor has now written to request payment plus a fee of £70. They have also included a form to complete if the intention is to dispute the debt. As that is indeed the intention, should this form be completed at this stage?

I will try to upload the images of the letter and form but may need some help with the links as they usually fail!

Thank you!


(https://i.imgur.com/eh3zGhs.jpeg)


(https://i.imgur.com/hSVgK96.jpeg)


(https://i.imgur.com/AL7fiBn.jpeg)
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on September 16, 2024, 04:41:29 pm
Notice serve date is 29th August. Second part of your question, "how does this relate to the definition of 'given' in the NTK?" - Could you explain? Not sure what this means...

thanks
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: H C Andersen on September 16, 2024, 02:46:42 pm
What is the Notice of Serve date and how does this relate to the definition of 'given' in the NTK?
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: b789 on September 16, 2024, 01:22:26 pm
None of the advice here puts anyone in danger of getting a CCJ. The common misconception (the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree reasoning) is that any form of litigation or even being unable to successfully defend a claim will "affect" their credit rating. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In the event that a claim is unsuccessfully defended and a CCJ is ordered, as long as the full amount is paid within 28 days of the order, there is no record of it on your credit file. It is completely expunged from the record. So, you could receive 20 CCJs and as long as each one was paid in full within the required time, no one would be any the wiser and it would not appear on your credit record.

What some people don't realise though, is that if a CCJ is paid after the 28 day deadline, it remains on your credit record as "satisfied" for the next 6 years. Having a "satisfied" CCJ on your record is only about 1% less financially painful that having an "unsatisfied" CCJ.

So, no impact on your credit record and at worst possible scenario around £200 at risk if unsuccessful. Of course, a huge ego boost and life learning experience if you are successful as well as the Schadenfreude of knowing that it has cost the operator to have gone that far and lost.
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: DWMB2 on September 16, 2024, 12:58:11 pm
Not if you pay the judgement promptly - if you do that then the CCJ gets removed from the public register, and will not show up in credit checks etc.

The only time these things have an adverse impact on one's credit rating is where a CCJ is made against a defendant, and they fail to pay, either at all, or on time.
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on September 16, 2024, 12:52:22 pm
Thank you. And is there any impact on credit score?
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: DWMB2 on September 16, 2024, 12:44:40 pm
For a single ticket, even if you lost, the costs are seldom above £200. They can claim the £100 charge, the hearing fee (£35 I think), legal rep fees (£50 I think), plus interest. They'll try to add on £70 debt collector fees but they can usually be successfully challenged.
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on September 16, 2024, 12:41:47 pm
Thank you - that's very helpful.

If the PPC does bring court proceedings and the driver is not successful in defending the claim, what is the likely worst case scenario financially (e.g. court costs.) The driver is up for a fight but needs to make an informed decision!
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: b789 on September 16, 2024, 11:13:02 am
It is too late to appeal and, in any case, even if you could, PD would reject any appeal and the IAS would almost certainly have rejected it too. There are minor technical failures in the NtK with regards to PoFA which would have a limited chance of success if you were to argue them as a basis for not holding the Keeper liable.

However, you have a strong case to argue that no contract was formed, due to the impossibility of registering for free parking, the lack of clarity in the signage, and the absence of financial loss to the operator or landowner. Based on these points, it would be reasonable to challenge the PCN on the grounds that the terms were unenforceable due to the circumstances surrounding the closure of the pub.

If you choose to contest the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) and are past any appeal stage, here's what to expect:

Initially, the Private Parking Company (PPC) will send reminder letters, followed by letters from Debt Recovery Agents (DRAs), who often add a fake £60-£70 charge. These DRAs operate on a no-win, no-fee basis and are entirely impotent. As a third party with no involvement in any alleged contract between the driver and the PPC, they cannot take any legal action against you, no matter what they claim.

The DRAs will use intimidating language designed to scare recipients, relying on ignorance of the process and the law. They'll throw around terms like "bailiffs" and "CCJ" (County Court Judgment), but this is pure bluff. They cannot instruct bailiffs or issue a CCJ – only a court can do that, and then only after a formal legal process. As DRAs are merely a third party, their threats are empty and can be safely ignored.

Once the DRAs give up, the PPC may decide to pursue the matter in the small claims track of the county court, but they have up to six years to make this decision. Before they can issue a claim, they must send a Letter of Claim (Loc), giving you 30 days to respond. There is no guarantee that they will actually follow through. It is all part of the intimidation process.

If/when a claim is eventually issued, it will need to be defended. Even then, many claimants will discontinue their case before a hearing, realising that you are not an easy target. The whole process is aimed at getting "low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree" to pay up, and once they see you’re not, they will move on in search of easier prey.

So, if you are up for a fight, here are some possible defence points if they decide to go all the way:

Based on the sign and the OP's statement about the event, there are several points to consider regarding the enforceability of the parking charge and the potential defence.

Key Observations from the Sign:

“Home Bar Patrons Only”:

The sign specifies that parking is exclusively for patrons of the Home Bar. However, if the pub is closed for renovations, there would be no patrons, making it impossible to register for parking. This creates an unfair obligation on drivers, as it places an unreasonable burden on them when they cannot fulfil the condition of registering their vehicle.

“Guests of Home Bar must register their vehicle registration number at reception to qualify for free parking”:

As the pub was closed, it was not possible for the driver to register the vehicle at the reception. This rendered the driver unable to comply with the parking terms. Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, terms must be fair and transparent. Requiring the driver to register when the venue is closed creates a situation where compliance is impossible, making the term inherently unfair and unenforceable.

“Breach of any term or condition will result in a parking charge of £100”:

While this suggests that failure to comply results in a £100 charge, the inability to comply due to the pub being closed makes the enforcement of the charge unreasonable. Imposing a penalty under these circumstances could be seen as an unfair term under the CRA, since it creates a significant imbalance between the rights of the operator and the consumer, and such terms are not binding.

Defence Points:

Impossibility of Performance:

As the bar was closed, the driver had no means to comply with the requirement to register the vehicle for free parking. In contract law, if fulfilling a term becomes impossible due to circumstances outside the consumer's control (such as the closure of the pub), the contract can be deemed void due to impossibility of performance. Enforcing a parking charge under such conditions is not only unreasonable but also in breach of consumer protection laws, specifically Section 62 of the Consumer Rights Act, which prohibits unfair terms from being binding.

Unclear and Unfair Contract Terms:

The signage does not address what drivers should do if the pub is closed, creating ambiguity. This lack of clarity makes the contract terms unfair and non-transparent, which violates Section 68 of the CRA. The driver had no reasonable way to understand how to comply with the parking terms in the event the pub was closed, which means the contract was not formed in a fair manner.

No Offer of Service:

As the pub was closed, there was no valid offer of service that the driver could accept by parking in the bay. Without a clear offer and acceptance, no contract can be said to have been formed. The Consumer Rights Act also supports this point by requiring that terms must be clear and fair—there was no way for the driver to know what alternative actions they should take if the service (in this case, registering the vehicle) was unavailable.

No Loss to the Landowner:

Since this is not a paid parking area and no other vehicles were prevented from parking, the landowner or operator has not suffered any financial loss. The CRA requires that terms must be proportionate and fair. In cases such as ParkingEye v Beavis, the charge was upheld due to a legitimate interest in managing parking, but in this instance, the pub’s closure means there is no legitimate interest, making the charge penal and unreasonable rather than compensatory.

Conclusion:

By including the Consumer Rights Act 2015 throughout the argument, it makes it clear that the parking terms are not only impossible to meet but also unfair and non-transparent, making them unenforceable under both contract law and consumer protection law. The fact that the pub was closed rendered compliance impossible, which falls foul of the CRA’s requirement for fairness and clarity in contract terms, making the £100 parking charge invalid.
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on September 16, 2024, 09:43:09 am
Thank you for the replies. Please see the blue box on the NTK front page.

http://(https://i.imgur.com/tIVxxnP.jpeg)[/img]
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: b789 on September 15, 2024, 01:44:42 pm
Quote from: calypso24 on September 14, 2024, 11:54:15 pm
There was a PCN on the windscreen and then the NTK letter. The contravention in question is ‘not registered for a parking session at a location that had the terms of parking clearly displayed on the warning signs.’

A "PCN on the windscreen" is known as a Notice to Driver (NtD). I asked:

Quote from: b789 on September 14, 2024, 04:11:09 pm
Does that NtK include the "reason" for the charge and also, does it include the times of observation?  Assume that you never received the NtD and the NtK was the first you knew about this, does the NtK contain the above information?

So... unless you can show us all the relevant bits of the NtK, please clarify your answer to my question. Does the NtK give the "reason" for the PCN? Is the "reason" given on the NtK match the "reason" given on the NtD? I also asked if the NtK include the times of observation. Does it?
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on September 14, 2024, 11:54:15 pm
Quote from: b789 on September 14, 2024, 04:11:09 pm
Does that NtK include the "reason" for the charge and also, does it include the times of observation?  Assume that you never received the NtD and the NtK was the first you knew about this, des the NtK contain the above information?

There was a PCN on the windscreen and then the NTK letter. The contravention in question is ‘not registered for a parking session at a location that had the terms of parking clearly displayed on the warning signs.’
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on September 14, 2024, 11:50:27 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/gaB1o9a.jpeg)

Struggling to find the embed link on the Imgur app.
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: DWMB2 on September 14, 2024, 05:06:59 pm
It might be useful to show us the bits you chopped off the front page (with the vehicle reg obscured of course)
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: b789 on September 14, 2024, 04:11:09 pm
Does that NtK include the "reason" for the charge and also, does it include the times of observation?  Assume that you never received the NtD and the NtK was the first you knew about this, des the NtK contain the above information?
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: DWMB2 on September 14, 2024, 02:53:28 pm
Quote
NB this is a free parking space - it’s necessary to provide reg no. at the bar. If pub closed for refurb, how can driver inform pub?
That's not quite true, as the signage you have shown us states, it is free parking for customers of the pub. To flip your question round, how can the driver be a customer if the pub is closed?

It would seem that the driver was trespassing, but that does not necessarily mean he has entered into a contract with Park Direct.

There is a potential argument to run that the signage is forbidding, in that it doesn't make an offer to non pub customers. This argument would need to be made in court, neither the operator not the IAS would consider it.
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: DWMB2 on September 14, 2024, 02:46:03 pm
(https://i.imgur.com/2JhTLqk.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3FFbIBP.jpeg)

Fixed the links for you
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on September 14, 2024, 01:42:03 pm
Apologies, Imgur link not working. Will keep trying.
Title: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on September 14, 2024, 01:41:10 pm
Following previous post, NTK now received.  It says the appeal deadline has passed. Is it still possible to appeal - possibly on grounds of forbidden contract as there was no way for the driver to inform the pub of the parking due to the pub not being open. NB this is a free parking space - it’s necessary to provide reg no. at the bar. If pub closed for refurb, how can driver inform pub?

(https://imgur.com/a/ntk2-rqIaGw1)
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on August 19, 2024, 11:37:21 am
Ah yes, remember now. (Successfully appealed a private PCN via POPLA 5 years ago thanks to the advice on the old forum! Memory was a bit hazy!)
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: b789 on August 15, 2024, 05:16:14 pm
They have to serve the NtK no earlier than 28 days after the NtD and no later than 56 days after the NtD in order to be able to hold the keeper liable. They have no idea who the driver is, so don't tell them, inadvertently or otherwise.
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on August 15, 2024, 04:55:52 pm
OK will do. Would this normally have arrived by now? (PCN issued more than 2 weeks ago...)
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: b789 on August 15, 2024, 04:53:05 pm
Just wait for the NtK to arrive. Show us when it does.
Title: Re: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on August 15, 2024, 04:33:09 pm
(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Bimg%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ff0Ol6xF.jpg&hash=d5b74b7fb295913ec28565b8cf295d7cad9dcd54)[/img]
Title: Park Direct PCN issued outside pub not currently trading
Post by: calypso24 on August 15, 2024, 04:31:37 pm
The driver parked in a bay outside a currently closed pub/bar formerly known as Home Bar & Kitchen in Ickenham at approx. 14:00 on Saturday 27th July. The driver arrived back at the car at approx. 15:00 and discovered a PCN had been issued.

Please note this is not a pay parking area. Previously, in order to park in bays outside the bar, drivers would need to register for a free session inside the pub. However, the pub is currently closed as management has transferred and is undergoing renovation so it is obviously not possible to register for a free parking session.

NB the photo of the site is from Google Street view and shows the bar when it was still open. It is currently boarded up.


(https://i.imgur.com/f0Ol6xF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Hq4DxFD.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bvM2mMI.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/oXu8kry.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/X0QdIKl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/G1ozaeK.jpg)