Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: BDayOwl on August 13, 2024, 04:41:12 pm

Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on November 10, 2024, 04:53:38 pm
Hey all, claim form arrived yesterday. Any advice on next steps would be much appreciated!



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 30, 2024, 04:25:30 pm
Did she actually use those dates?

Quote
We write in response to your correspondence received in our office dated 24/09/2024.

We now respond to the same as follows.

We refer to our communication of 24/09/2024,

Never mind. This will be used against them when the time comes. You now sit back and wait for the inevitable N1SDT Claim form to arrive in theist from the CNBC.

The only piece of paper in the envelope will be the actual N1SDT form. All the other forms can be discarded. You will not be responding by post. It will all be done online and by email.

When the clam from arrives, show us all the detail except your name and address, the claim number, the VRM of the vehicle and the MCOL password. Leave everything else showing.

We will give you the necessary advice on how to acknowledge it and defend it.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 30, 2024, 03:37:15 pm
Thanks for the above reply, however I would have had more luck just shouting at a brick wall:

Quote
We write in response to your correspondence received in our office dated 24/09/2024.

 

We now respond to the same as follows.

 


We refer to our communication of 24/09/2024, we confirm that despite your latest correspondence, our position remains as previously advised. As such, should our client instruct us to proceed with further legal action, we reserve the right to do so without any further reference to you.

 

If you are at all unsure of your legal position, you may wish to seek your own independent legal advice. For example, you may wish to seek independent legal advice from the Citizens Advice Bureau. 

 

You now have 24 days from the date of this email to make payment of £170.00. Failure to make payment will result in a Claim being issued against you without any further reference.

Payment can be made via bank transfer to our designated client account: -

Account Name: DCB Legal Ltd Client Account   
Sort Code: 20-24-09   
Account Number: 60964441
You must quote the correct case reference (XXXXXXXX) when making payment. If you do not, we may be unable to correctly allocate the payment. If further action is taken by us as a result of an incorrect reference being quoted, you will be liable for any further fees or costs incurred.

We would ask that you kindly furnish us with your most up to date telephone number, this can be emailed to us at info@dcblegal.co.uk.

Alternatively, you can contact DCB Legal Ltd on 0203 838 7038 to make payment over the telephone or online at https://dcblegal.co.uk/response/pay-online/.


 
Kind Regards,

 

Louise Bridle

 

DCB Legal Ltd 
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 24, 2024, 05:50:44 pm
Nothing unexpected. However, I suggest you respond to that letter with the following:

Quote
Subject: Continued Non-Compliance with Pre-Action Protocol

Dear Ms Bridle,

I acknowledge receipt of your latest response, dated [insert date].

It is regrettable that you have once again failed to fully comply with the requirements of the Pre-Action Protocol (PAP). Despite my repeated and clear requests for information, you have not provided satisfactory answers or the required documentation.

You have also failed to fully address my queries regarding the additional £70 charge, which you assert is a "contractual cost" but provide no breakdown or justification of its calculation in relation to any specific contractual terms. Your attempt to characterise the fee as such does not exempt you from providing clarity, especially in light of the fact that this charge was introduced post-PCN and does not appear to be part of the initial contract at the time of the alleged parking event.

Your refusal to engage with my questions regarding whether VAT applies to the debt recovery fee and your continued reliance on the BPA Code of Practice without addressing the specific issues raised is unhelpful and inconsistent with the spirit of transparency required by the PAP. Simply restating positions without answering reasonable questions amounts to obfuscation, and I find your behaviour obstructive.

I must remind you that the court expects both parties to act reasonably and proportionately before litigation. Should you continue to fail in your obligations under the PAP, I will have no hesitation in bringing this to the attention of the court as evidence of your unwillingness to comply with pre-litigation conduct requirements.

This will be my final request for answers. I therefore give you one final opportunity to:

1. Provide a proper breakdown of the additional £70 charge, including the basis upon which it has been added to the claim, and whether it includes VAT.

2. Confirm the full chain of authority for your client’s right to issue parking charges at the location, including the landowner's contract and any applicable sub-contracts.

3. Supply any further documents you deem necessary to clarify your position.

Failure to respond to these reasonable requests in a timely and transparent manner will result in me relying on your failure to comply with the PAP as part of my defence in any future proceedings.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Full Name]

This makes it clear that you do not intend to make further requests for clarification and strengthens your position in case this proceeds to court.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 24, 2024, 05:04:11 pm
Reply received:

Quote
We write in response to your correspondence received in our office dated 05/09/2024.

 

We now respond to the same as follows.

 

The Parking Charge Notice (PCN) was issued as the vehicle, XXXXXX had stopped to pick up in a restricted zone. The signage on site clearly stipulated, 'no pick up or drop off'. Please see attached. As evidenced by the images of the vehicle attached, the vehicle picks up a passenger. This is a clear breach of the Terms and Conditions of the site. Therefore, it is our Client's position the PCN was issued correctly.

 

Your appeal was received by our Client on 16/05/2024. In response to your appeal our Client informed you that upon review of the CCTV evidence, it was confirmed your vehicle stopped to collect a passenger on an access road where restrictions apply. Our Client then afforded you the opportunity to pay the PCN at a reduced sum of £60.00 or make an appeal to the Independent Appeals Service. No further payment or appeals were made. Please see attached both the appeal and response.

 

Given that the case has been escalated to this firm for recovery action, the time to appeal further has now elapsed and payment of the PCN is now required.

 

The PCN was not paid within the prescribed 28 days or indeed at all. In view of this the sum of £70.00 is also claimed as a contractual cost pursuant to the Contract. The £70.00 contractual cost is not inclusive of VAT.

For clarity, our Client is an approved operator of the International Parking Community. We apologise for the administrative error within our previous correspondence.

We can confirm the Landowner Agreement has been extended by mutual consent. As such, our Client has sufficient authority to manage parking in this location.

Please note, we will not be engaging in further correspondence regarding matters previously discussed.

If there are any documents that you have requested, but that are not attached, it is because we have deemed the request to be disproportionate and/or not relevant to the substantive issues in dispute. We respectfully draw your attention to paragraph 2.1(c) of the Protocol and remind you that both parties are expected to act reasonably and proportionately. 

You now have 30 days from the date of this email to make payment of £170.00. Failure to make payment will result in a Claim being issued against you without any further reference.

Payment can be made via bank transfer to our designated client account: -

Account Name: DCB Legal Ltd Client Account   
Sort Code: 20-24-09   
Account Number: 60964441
You must quote the correct case reference (XXXXXXX) when making payment. If you do not, we may be unable to correctly allocate the payment. If further action is taken by us as a result of an incorrect reference being quoted, you will be liable for any further fees or costs incurred.

We would ask that you kindly furnish us with your most up to date telephone number, this can be emailed to us at info@dcblegal.co.uk.

Alternatively, you can contact DCB Legal Ltd on 0203 838 7038 to make payment over the telephone or online at https://dcblegal.co.uk/response/pay-online/.


Kind Regards,

 

Louise Bridle

 

DCB Legal Ltd
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 05, 2024, 05:29:05 pm
Please, don't use "Hi" when writing formal letters. It may as well be signed "with love and kisses". Use Dear Sir (or the name of the person) and sign with Yours Faithfully (if you don't know the person) or sincerely (if you know the person).

These are not your "mates" or friends. They are out to scam you out of hundreds of £s.

I note you are also seeking advice on the advice you've received here from us over on the MSE forum.

This will never reach a hearing and will be discontinued in due course. What we are trying to achieve here is extra work and expense for DCB Legal and their intellectually malnourished employees.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 05, 2024, 03:04:18 pm
Noted, will be sure of that moving forwards.

Quote
Hi Shahera,

Thanks for your prompt reply, but you seem to have missed a few points.
My initial question was about whether the additional £70 'debt recovery fee' was inclusive or exclusive of VAT, not the original parking charge. Please clarify whether the recovery fee of £70 is inclusive of exclusive of VAT, or whether it's VAT-exempt as you seem to have indicated above.
Point 2 has been completely ignored, so I'll share it again: "Regarding the principal sum allegedly due under the PCN: Is this being claimed as damages, or is it intended to be pleaded as consideration for a service (i.e., parking)?"
You've shared 3 pages of what, according to the numbering in the footers, is an 8 page document. In addition, the term specified within the contract lapsed in January 2023. Furthermore, the contract you have shared is signed by Bristol Airport Ltd, with no reference to the landowner. Please provide the full and valid contract flowing from the landowner, Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan (OTPP), through their managing agent, Bristol Airport Ltd, to your client, evidencing their contractual right to issue PCNs in their own name.
You've alluded to the BPA Code of Conduct, but I note that VCS LTD aren't listed on the BPA's Approved Operators. Can you confirm whether VCS Ltd are bound by the BPA's Code of Conduct?
Under the PAP I am entitled to specific answers to these questions, so please share full answers at your earliest convenience.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 05, 2024, 03:02:53 pm
It would help if you could show us any planned response, just in case there is anything that could prejudice your case that you may not have noticed but maybe we will.

Can you please show us the wording you used in your response?
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 05, 2024, 02:50:24 pm
Appreciate the help! I've already sent a response but it effectively covers all of the points in your message.

Thanks again.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 05, 2024, 02:30:35 pm
It is probably worth responding to them with the following:

Quote
Subject: Mendacious Response and Failure to Comply with PAP

Dear Shahera Begum,

I write to address the glaring contradictions in your recent response and your apparent disregard for honesty and transparency.

You have stated that parking charge notices fall outside the scope of VAT according to HMRC’s VATSC06140, and therefore, no VAT invoice is required. However, you go on to state that the additional £70 is for "debt recovery fees" incurred by your client as a result of my alleged non-payment.

This assertion is inconsistent and misleading. Debt recovery fees, unlike parking charges, are not VAT-exempt. You have explicitly admitted that the £70 is for debt recovery, which is a separate service from the PCN. As such, these charges are subject to VAT. Yet, you have chosen to obscure this fact by refusing to provide a breakdown of the amount or clarify whether VAT has been included. This evasiveness strongly suggests that you and/or your client are knowingly attempting to recover an inflated sum without properly accounting for VAT.

Furthermore, your reliance on the BPA Code of Practice to justify the £70 fee does not negate the fact that debt recovery services are not VAT exempt. Your failure to disclose whether VAT is included in this fee, combined with your attempt to characterise the £70 as part of a debt recovery process, exposes a deliberate effort to mislead.

Should this matter proceeds to court, I will bring to the court's attention your blatant contradictions, your mendacious response, and your refusal to comply with the Pre-Action Protocol. This lack of honesty and transparency will be noted as an attempt to confuse and overcharge. The court is unlikely to look favourably upon such conduct, especially when coupled with your disregard for the rules governing pre-litigation disclosure.

I strongly suggest you reconsider your position and provide the clarity and full documentation required by the PAP, including a proper breakdown of the £70 fee with reference to VAT. If you fail to do so, I will have no hesitation in using your own admissions against you and your client in any subsequent proceedings.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Name]

Keep the failure to disclose the contract and the fact that they have failed to evidence the contract for subsequent comms. Let's see if they bother to respond to the above.

It is a fact that any claim issued by DCB Legal will be discontinued just before they are required to pay the trial fee. The above is simply to have a bit of fun at their expense and puts them on notice that they are not dealing with low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: DWMB2 on September 05, 2024, 12:38:46 pm
I'm broadly of the same view as b789... In general it's not worth getting into protracted correspondence at this stage. They're not going to budge from their position that you owe their client money and you're not going to budge from your position that you do not.

But in this case, they haven't even bothered to answer one of your questions, and have done a shoddy job of answering the other two. Given that, pointing this out seems a decent movie.

I'd be minded to ignore the contract date at this stage. If they want to present a contract that expired in 2023 as evidence they had authority to issue parking charges in 2024, let them crack on.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 05, 2024, 12:00:20 pm
We don’t normally recommend responding to their response to your response to the LoC but I’m minded to suggest something, just to give them notice that even though they are going to discontinue the claim in due course, they are on notice that their failure to comply with the PAP by not providing the answers or the full contract, is going to cause them anxiety as they scramble to cover their backsides.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 05, 2024, 11:52:48 am
Thanks for the above.

Yes, just to be clear, the 3 pages I've shared is the sum of what was sent to me by DCBLegal.

Very good point on the VAT front. I'll report them immediately.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 05, 2024, 11:50:33 am
Is what you’ve shown us, the sum total of the “contract” they have sent to you?

Regarding the “template” response to the other questions asked...

Quote
This is not our client’s usual business, and the resources could have been better spent in other areas of the business. Had you of paid as per the Contract, there would have been no need for recovery action so the amount due would not have increased.

Just to highlight the level of intellectual malnourishment you are dealing with here, you can tell by the highlighted bit above that you are dealing with people who apparently never finished basic English grammar in primary school.

The response to the three questions is evasive and incomplete, providing limited answers and not addressing all your concerns directly. You asked whether the £70 charge is a debt recovery fee and if it's inclusive or exclusive of VAT, specifically why you'd be covering the operator’s VAT liability.

They cite the HMRC guidance, asserting that parking charges fall outside the scope of VAT, so no VAT invoice is needed. They have not directly clarified whether the £70 includes VAT or addressed the concern about VAT liability being passed to you. They have avoided explaining the exact composition of the £70 fee in terms of VAT and have tried to justify it as a debt recovery fee based on internal costs.

The second question asked whether the principal sum was being claimed as damages or as consideration for a service. In their response, they don’t explicitly answer whether it's damages or consideration, but they imply the amount reflects what you would have (of) paid under the contract (for parking). They emphasise that the fee increased due to non-payment and recovery efforts. The nature of the principal sum remains vague as they focus on the rationale for additional fees rather than clarifying the legal basis of the charge itself (damages vs. consideration).

The third question requested evidence of a valid contract involving the landowner, OTPP, and their managing agent, Bristol Airport Ltd, granting their client the right to issue PCNs. The excuse for a contract provided, consists of only three pages (cover page, definitions/services, and a partial signature page).

Crucially, the contract appears to be between Bristol Airport Ltd and the agent, VCS, not the landowner, as specifically requested. They have provided a partial contract that does not fully meet the request, as it lacks clear evidence of direct authorisation flowing from the landowner (OTPP) through the agent to VCS. The documentation is minimal and incomplete.

Their response is evasive and focuses on justifying the charges rather than addressing the specific legal queries. The VAT issue is not fully explained, the legal nature of the principal sum is unclear and the excuse for a contract provided does not sufficiently prove the authority they claim to have from the landowner.

DCB Legal are issuing thousands of claims every week and there appears to be a significant financial incentive to obscure the VAT aspect, particularly since they’ve chosen to sidestep the clear question regarding whether the £70 fee includes VAT. By failing to clarify whether the £70 is inclusive of VAT, they have avoided having to account for VAT payments to HMRC. This allows them to pocket the full amount, effectively overcharging you.

As the fee should include VAT but they are not declaring it, this amounts to VAT fraud as they are collecting VAT from consumers without passing it on to the tax authorities. Debt recovery fees are supposed to reflect actual costs, but by inflating the figure and leaving the VAT question ambiguous, they anre unjustly enriching themselves under the guise of "cost recovery."

As we strongly suspect VAT fraud, you should report the matter to HMRC, which may investigate whether the company is correctly accounting for VAT on these additional fees. It takes a few minutes to do so online here:

https://www.gov.uk/report-tax-fraud

It’s very straightforward and once reported, you will have no further involvement. The sums involved are suspected to be in the “millions”.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 05, 2024, 11:18:16 am
I also note that they've alluded to the BPA's code of practice, but VCS aren't a BPA Approved Operator. Is this anything?
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 05, 2024, 11:11:43 am
Yes, this is everything they sent me.

At this point do I go back questioning those points?
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: DWMB2 on September 05, 2024, 11:08:33 am
Your question #1 was about the debt collection fees, not whether the original parking charge is subject to VAT. They haven't even bothered to answer #2. For #3, you have only uploaded 3 pages (of what should be 8, by the looks of the footers), is that because they only sent you 3?

That contract had also expired at the time the parking charge notice was issued.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 05, 2024, 10:53:06 am
Received quite a swift reply.

Quote
We write in response to your correspondence received in our office dated 4th September 2024.

 

We now respond to the same as follows.

 

The address we have on our records is your current address - XXXXXXX.

Any previous addresses have been removed.

 

The HMRC ‘VAT Supply and Consideration manual’ (VATSC06140), which was last updated on 02 September 2020, confirmed that parking charge notices falls out of the scope of VAT. There is no requirement for a VAT invoice to be issued to you.

The sum added is a contribution to the actual costs incurred by our client as a result of your non-payment. Our client’s employees have spent time and material attempting to recover the debt. This is not our client’s usual business, and the resources could have been better spent in other areas of the business. Had you of paid as per the Contract, there would have been no need for recovery action so the amount due would not have increased.

In accordance with the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice, where the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) becomes overdue and before Court proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum may be added for the debt recovery fees. BPA - 24.1b “Where a Parking Charge becomes overdue and before Court Proceedings have commenced, a reasonable sum (which covers the cost of recovering debt) may be added for the debt recovery fees. This sum must not exceed £70 unless prior approval from the BPA has been granted”. The correct recovery fees have been added and will not be removed.

 

Please see the attached contract agreement.

 
You now have 30 days from the date of this email to make payment of £170.00. Failure to make payment will result in a Claim being issued against you without any further reference.

Payment can be made via bank transfer to our designated client account: -

Account Name: DCB Legal Ltd Client Account 
Sort Code: 20-24-09 
Account Number: 60964441
You must quote the correct case reference (XXXXX) when making payment. If you do not, we may be unable to correctly allocate the payment. If further action is taken by us as a result of an incorrect reference being quoted, you will be liable for any further fees or costs incurred.

Alternatively, you can contact DCB Legal Ltd on 0203 838 7038 to make payment over the telephone or online at https://dcblegal.co.uk/response/pay-online/.

 
Kind Regards, 

 

Shahera Begum

Administration Associate

DCB Legal Ltd 

Attachment: https://imgur.com/a/R0i2Oa3
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 04, 2024, 02:00:30 pm
Apologies, I thought it was an N1SDT claim form you received. Respond with the following:

Quote
Subject: Response to Letter of Claim dated 29th August 2024

Dear DCB Legal,

I acknowledge receipt of your Letter of Claim dated 29th August 2024.

Please note that my address for service, assuming you intend to proceed without undue delay, is as follows: [YOUR ADDRESS]. I require that any previous addresses be removed from your records in accordance with data protection regulations.

I wish to make it clear that the alleged debt is disputed, and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended. No contract can have been entered into, as any signage at the location is prohibitory. It is embarrassing that a firm of supposed legal representatives does not understand this concept.

It has also come to my attention that the amount claimed has been substantially increased by an additional £70. The Government has previously referred to such charges as 'extorting money from motorists,' and I share this view. Therefore, I expect you to refrain from sending any further correspondence justifying this inflated claim without addressing the specific points I raise below.

Under the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims, I am entitled to request specific information, and I ask that you provide clear answers to the following questions:

1. Am I correct in understanding that the additional £70 is being claimed as a 'Debt Recovery' fee? If so, is this amount inclusive or exclusive of VAT? If it is inclusive, please explain why I am being asked to cover the VAT liability of the operator.

2. Regarding the principal sum allegedly due under the PCN: Is this being claimed as damages, or is it intended to be pleaded as consideration for a service (i.e., parking)?

3. I will require evidence of a contract flowing from the landowner, Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan (OTPP), through their managing agent, Bristol Airport Ltd, to your client, evidencing their contractual right to issue PCNs in their own name.

I look forward to your prompt and full response to these queries.

Yours faithfully,

[Your Full Name]
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 04, 2024, 01:35:44 pm
Letter is dated 29th August 2024.

Picture here: https://imgur.com/a/w8EDu7w
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on September 04, 2024, 01:10:17 pm
What is the "issue date" of the claim? Please show us the Particulars of Claim (PoC).
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on September 04, 2024, 01:06:30 pm
Hi all,

Letter of Claim received today. What are the next steps?
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: slapdash on August 23, 2024, 02:36:03 pm
I am actually heading towards the car park. I was driving to the pickup area.

My mistake, it was hard to tell from the dark photos.



Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on August 23, 2024, 11:40:20 am
VCS are pursuing the keeper under the assumption that they were the driver
They are pursuing the driver, who has been identified to them.

In which case, the other points about no contract are still valid. Did the driver breach any contract as alleged by VCS? Signage parallel to the direction of travel is irrelevant and even if it weren’t, is it enough to form a “contract”.

Thinking of this as though some sort of “offence” has been committed by the driver is wrong. The pedestrian has not committed any “offence” and is not being sued. What the pedestrian may have seen or done is irrelevant.

The simple question is did the driver breach any contract? No.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on August 23, 2024, 11:33:59 am
You are at the second one it seems, but going out of the airport. In order to get there you would have gone past the short stay/arrivals car park turning (which you would have done of course since it's closed), gone to the next small roundabout, ignored/missed the left turn for the arrivals/pickup and gone fully round it to get back to that crossing.

I am actually heading towards the car park. I was driving to the pickup area, red traffic lights, passenger jumped in, green light, moved away, around the roundabout and then out of the airport.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: DWMB2 on August 23, 2024, 11:32:03 am
Your burden in court is proving that is how events unfolded on the balance of probability.

Other avenues might be better.
I think the 'other avenues' are the ones already covered above. How events unfolded is irrelevant if no contract was formed. Spending too much time forensically analysing the actions of the passenger may be of detriment rather than benefit, as I suggested above.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: slapdash on August 23, 2024, 11:28:08 am
There are actually 2 crossings, and I have just seen the notice (it failed for some reason the first time).

Both have signage on the railings saying no loading amongst other things.

You are at the second one it seems, but going out of the airport. In order to get there you would have gone past the short stay/arrivals car park turning (which you would have done of course since it's closed), gone to the next small roundabout, ignored/missed the left turn for the arrivals/pickup and gone fully round it to get back to that crossing.

Meanwhile your passenger would have missed the signage to the pick up pointing them left from the terminal. Missed the signage and visible buses to the right and instead headed over the road towards the terminal long term, hotels and coach station.

So you both got a bit lost at exactly the same time and your passenger fortuitously jumped in.

Your burden in court is proving that is how events unfolded on the balance of probability.

The other avenues might be better.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: DWMB2 on August 23, 2024, 11:22:46 am
VCS are pursuing the keeper under the assumption that they were the driver
They are pursuing the driver, who has been identified to them.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on August 23, 2024, 11:16:19 am
No “contract” was breached. You are apparently under the assumption that VCS are some kind of “authority” that can issue a “fine” or a “penalty” for an “offence”. It is nothing of the sort.

It is an alleged breach of contract by the driver. What “contract” do you think was in place? Where did you agree not to “pick up or drop off in a restricted zone”? Do the signs where the vehicle was stopped specifically state “no pick up or drop off” or do they say “stopping prohibited” or both?

Either way, there is no contractual offer of any kind. VCS are pursuing the keeper under the assumption that they were the driver (not allowed due no keeper liability) for a contractual breach which is an impossibility because for a contract to exist, there needs to be an “offer”, “acceptance” and “consideration”. A sign prohibiting something makes no “offer” and there is no “consideration”, so what was “accepted”.

Finally, there is the fact that a driver is not responsible for the actions of another adult. The vehicle was stopped at a red traffic light, which is a legal requirement, and the driver is obligated to stop.

While stationary at a red light, the driver is fulfilling a legal obligation under traffic regulations (airport bylaws in this case). The pedestrian's decision to enter the vehicle while it is stopped at a traffic light is an independent action of an adult. The driver is not responsible for the actions of the pedestrian who chooses to enter the vehicle at that time. Additionally, the notion of picking up or dropping off in a prohibited area typically implies a deliberate action rather than a consequence of following traffic signals.

There is ample defence argument to have VCS spanked in court should they actually issue a claim.

Remember, you do not have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on the claimant. You do not have to prove that it was a “coincidence”. The claimant would have to prove that the keeper was also the driver and that they breached a contractual term on a sign. That’s it. They can’t.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on August 23, 2024, 10:49:07 am
That's my argument I think. Lights went red, vehicle stopped, car door opened, car door closed, vehicle waited for a few seconds, lights went green, car moved off. Aside from fighting the passenger off or driving into the pedestrians, there wasn't really much of an option. The vehicle stopped in order to comply with the traffic lights.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: DWMB2 on August 23, 2024, 10:43:29 am
I'm also concerned about proving this coincidence was exactly that.
See what others think, but you might be better off not spending too much time trying to prove that. What you don't want is for the judge to think you're taking the p*** or trying to insult their intelligence.

Your other defence points can hopefully stand on their own, regardless of the reason for the passenger being at the location. One of the points will presumably be that the signage is forbidding (a sign that says 'no stopping' 'no drop off/pick up' is not making an offer to stop/park on certain terms, so what contract can be formed?). Another will presumably be that even if a contract had been formed, the terms were impossible to comply with due to the presence of traffic lights forcing you to stop.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on August 23, 2024, 10:26:40 am
Thanks for your post.

The traffic lights were located where there is an existing zebra crossing (51.387023, -2.711737). I'm also concerned about proving this coincidence was exactly that. The passenger was incidentally in the wrong place because she thought the pick up was near the bus station. However, a coincidence is exactly what it was.

My main hope here is that ALL of the evidence that VCS hold shows the car stopped at the red traffic lights. There is no picture showing the car while the traffic lights are not red, therefore I would hope the 'reason' for stopping is abundantly clear, coincidence or not. Had they provided one picture of the car stopped at a green traffic light I'd absolutely pay up.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: slapdash on August 23, 2024, 10:19:11 am
A difficulty might possibly be "she just got in" and any defence might need to rest on other points.

Your only real option is to wait for a court claim and defend that. Cost of loss would be about £220. You don't get a ccj provided an adverse judgement is paid in time.

The contract is not to stop. However after that point there is a roundabout, a number of currently closed turning to the right for various non functional parking (including the short stay arrivals) 
and a pedestrian crossing below the terminal, a left turn into the drop off and the variable location of the constantly moving temporary lights.

Stopping under those circumstances - the normal course of traffic - cannot reasonably be a contravention.

A passenger jumping in coincidentally doesn't change the reason for the stop.

There is also a slim chance it occurred on a part of the roadway not under vcs control.

There is however a credibility issue. There is little reason that would put a potential passenger and the vehicle collecting them  coincidentally at the same place.

Where, exactly, were the temporary lights.


Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on August 13, 2024, 04:52:17 pm
Now you have to argue the fact that the "reasonable cause" they are claiming, namely "stopping to pick up/drop off in a restricted zone", is not true. If the driver stopped because of a red light and a person over the age of 14 decides to get in or out of the vehicle while the traffic light is red, the vehicle was not stopped to pick up or drop off and the driver cannot be responsible for the actions of that person.

You are past any chance to appeal this and are now waiting to see if/when VCS take you to court. You can safely ignore all the debt collector letters that are going to come your way with the fat added £70 DRA fee. Come back if/when you receive a Letter of Claim (LoC) that gives you 30 days to pay. We don't need to see any of the set collector letters or reminders. Use them as emergency toilet paper if you must.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on August 13, 2024, 04:45:06 pm
Naivety. It seemed a mistake on their part to be pursuing something so obviously cut and dry, so we contacted them to notify them of their embarrassing misunderstanding.

We appreciate what a mistake that was, but still hope the case is redeemable.
Title: Re: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: b789 on August 13, 2024, 04:42:50 pm
Why was the driver identified? What a waste of a guaranteed win.
Title: VCS - Bristol Airport - PCN for 'Stopping to Pick up/Drop off a passenger' at a temporary red light
Post by: BDayOwl on August 13, 2024, 04:41:12 pm
hi all,

We're being pursued by VCS for 'stopping to collect a passenger' at Bristol Airport, despite the passenger entering the vehicle while the vehicle was stationary at a temporary red traffic light. The light was red the entire time that the passenger was embarking.

Foolishly, we have identified the driver to VCS as this seemed an open and shut case and didn't realise that the appeals process is a kangaroo court. We have gone through the full appeals process and it has been denied at every point (both with VCS and with the IAS).

We're now being pursued by DCBL for £170 (increased from £100).

Formal complaints have been made to Bristol Airport, to VCS (who have not replied to the complaint) and to the DVLA, who advised us that the only recourse is to appeal to the IAS, a process that we had already exhausted.

Letters and appeal details available here: https://imgur.com/a/Utrmx2w

We've confirmed via a SAR that the photos included in the charge notice are ALL images that they have of the vehicle.

Any advice on how best to proceed here would be much appreciated. I only stumbled on this site today and see that you've been able to provide invaluable assistance to others, so holding out hope that we don't have to stump up for this injustice.