Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: bigbluffang on July 30, 2023, 08:54:31 am

Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on October 08, 2023, 05:39:40 pm
Hello Ivan

Thank you so much for your help on this YBJ appeal. I’m over the moon with this result.  :D

What you do is fantastic and you are definitely a Wizard of the Highest Order.

TYTYTY
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: DancingDad on October 08, 2023, 02:30:14 pm
That'll do nicely!
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: cp8759 on October 08, 2023, 01:00:49 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=12meJb39GAeR5Ae8Qe2r3g-7a9WjZh0FG).
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on August 20, 2023, 10:41:08 pm
This is 1st page

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on August 20, 2023, 04:09:51 pm
Hi Ivan, I have now received the Notice of Rejection for this YBJ PCN. 
Any advice on taking it to adjudicator?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: cp8759 on August 04, 2023, 12:12:52 am

I think you'll find this applies:

1.  The driver of a vehicle must not cause the vehicle or any part of it to stop within the limits of a section 25 crossing unless prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or it is necessary to stop to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.
I think you'll find it doesn't: a section 25 crossing is defined at Schedule 1 of the TSRGD (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/1/made) as "a Puffin crossing or a Zebra crossing", the crossing at this location is a Toucan crossing (also defined in Schedule 1).
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: guest179 on July 31, 2023, 10:43:25 am

I think you'll find this applies:

1.  The driver of a vehicle must not cause the vehicle or any part of it to stop within the limits of a section 25 crossing unless prevented from proceeding by circumstances beyond the driver’s control or it is necessary to stop to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.

Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: MrChips on July 31, 2023, 08:36:48 am
I don't believe it's prohibited to stop on the crossing, although it wouldn't be best practice.  So long as there isn't already a car blocking the exit, it's perfectly allowed to wait in the box rather than sitting on the crossing (although given the practice of most councils you'd probably still get a PCN in the post which you'd then have to appeal, rather like this one).

Re this PCN, I'm happy the "vacant" space argument is the strongest one but if/when that's rejected it might be worth including a "turning right" exemption for the tribunal.  From the look of the angle of the car immediately in front it doesn't look like it has fully aligned with the angle of the road it's turning into.  As per exemption, it's permitted to stop in the box for the purpose of turning right if you are waiting behind another vehicle also waiting to complete a right turn.
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: guest179 on July 30, 2023, 05:27:45 pm
Surely a driver may not stop on the parallel crossing which constitutes all/the vast majority of the 14ft, therefore surely this wasn't a legal exit option. 

A driver's difficulty on approach is that whereas the YBJ markings might be visible the extent of the prohibited parallel crossing is more problematic.
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on July 30, 2023, 03:11:30 pm
Thanks so much for this. I will let you know what reply I receive.

Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: cp8759 on July 30, 2023, 01:27:20 pm
That's not how red lights work, at least not in the UK. The rule is that you cannot cross the stop line, your stop line would have been here:

(https://i.imgur.com/NMniONZ.png)

Once you're past the stop line, the lights simply don't apply to you and you're entitled to keep going. This means that if you're halfway across a junction when the lights turn red, you can (and usually should) simply keep going.

So while I appreciate why you stopped where you did, the law on red lights did not require you to do so.

As for the PCN, here's a simple representation you can send, I recommend you put this into a PDF document and upload it to the council website as an attachment, together with a photo from your car's owner's manual showing the length of the vehicle.

Dear London Borough of Waltham Forest,

I challenge liability for PCN FR60117364 on the grounds that the alleged contravention did not occur. As the video confirms, there was space ahead of my vehicle when I stopped:

(https://i.imgur.com/wqjFI02.png)

I could have proceeded further, but chose not to do so because I would have then obstructed the pedestrian crossing. My path was not blocked by stationary vehicles.

My car is 14.71 feet in length, and having measured the gap in front of my car using google maps, I can see there were at least 14.34 feet clear ahead of me when measured perpendicularly to Lea Bridge Road:

(https://i.imgur.com/PkJACuT.png)

As I was travelling at an angle, there was actually ample space to accommodate my vehicle without colliding with the car ahead:

(https://i.imgur.com/tz88try.png)

It follows that I did not stop in the box junction because my path was impeded by stationary vehicles, rather I stopped because I chose not to obstruct the pedestrian crossing. It is a common myth perpetuated by councils that stopping in a box junction for any reason is a contravention, but this is not the case: it is only a contravention if the vehicle stops because it cannot proceed owing to the presence of stationary vehicles. Where a vehicle stops for some other reason, whatever that reason might be, the contravention alleged cannot occur.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on July 30, 2023, 12:42:22 pm
4485mm (176.6 inches) in length.

I read the road and the traffic on Lea Bridge Road had started to move. I drove forward  as I knew there was enough space for me. I couldn’t have foreseen that all the lights would turn red. The video doesn’t show the oncoming traffic it just shows me and car in front turning right. It also doesn’t show the red lights at that crossing but you can see the other lights are red. At this junction all the lights turn red at the same time and the crossings makes a bleeping sound all round. I and the car in front had stopped for the red light and I got trapped in the box.
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: cp8759 on July 30, 2023, 12:21:32 pm
Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km7-LgAmWUY

This is the position where you stopped:

(https://i.imgur.com/wqjFI02.png)

There were roughly 14 feet clar ahead of your car:

(https://i.imgur.com/wTpzzw9.png)

So the key question is, how long is your car exactly? The handbook should tell you.

As far as I can see from https://www.carexpert.com.au/kia/sportage/2021-gt-line-awd-daa49dae your car should be 14.7 feet, so given you were at an angle you should have just about been able to squeeze in the gap. However if you can get the exact spec from the owner's manual, that's more reliable than some random website.
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: John U.K. on July 30, 2023, 12:03:49 pm
He's around... if you look, he's just edited my last post to you!
He's a very busy man, but he'll be along...,
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on July 30, 2023, 11:46:11 am
Also I was asked to post here by Ivan Murry-Smith.

I posted on FB Free Traffic Advise, he asked me to post here as he could draft me a reply. I’ve not been able to find him on here.
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on July 30, 2023, 11:44:05 am
I’m totally lost on here, lol.

I came up Argyle Way to turn right onto Lea Bridge Road. Still not sure what I did wrong or what I could have done differently.

What more of the PCN should I post here?

Thanks
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: John U.K. on July 30, 2023, 11:31:58 am
Lea Bridge Road/ Argall Way E10 according to the PCN. Here?
https://goo.gl/maps/XX51Q4UD7NYs7nC68

And you were coming from - to?

One of the experts here should be able to get the video for you (beyond my pay grade).

And the rest of the PCN, please.
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on July 30, 2023, 11:18:59 am
HI

I’m not very computer savvy and I don’t know how to post the video.
Also what is GSV?

This PCN is for the box junction on Lea Bridge Road, N17, London.

There was oncoming traffic and when I made the turn the lights all round had turned red. This is why I couldn’t move forward or into the space to the left.
Title: Re: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: John U.K. on July 30, 2023, 09:47:37 am
Please post up rest of PCN and a GSV link to the location as per

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/


You also need to obtain and post up a link to the video, which is the evidence.
Title: Yellow box junction PCN
Post by: bigbluffang on July 30, 2023, 08:54:31 am
Hi Ivan

I received this PCN yesterday, contravention code 31.
Any help would be most appreciated. 
Thanks

[attachment deleted by admin]