Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: NotFair on July 29, 2023, 03:36:35 pm

Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: John U.K. on October 31, 2024, 03:00:30 pm
@finesbreakingmybank   Please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and start your own topic with a brief summary of the circumstances and all sides of the PCN (only redact your name & address - nothing else) and a GSV link to the location.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: finesbreakingmybank on October 31, 2024, 02:51:04 pm
I've literally JUST received this fine and completely shell shocked at the cost of the fine at £160 discounted price. Is there a high chance of a successful challenge here? I see that the PCN was dropped for other reasons and not in contest to the yellow box being illegal.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on August 26, 2024, 10:59:35 am
The PCN was cancelled on review of the appeal. Unfortunately, though, not because of the yellow box issue but because TfL took such a long time to respond to reps.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: newbie819 on July 29, 2024, 10:18:15 am
Thanks all.

There is a helpful website which actually has a pretty perfect photograph of the exact junction in question, gate and all, which I've included in my appeal for review: https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/1-the-box

I've submitted this:

---

Following the decision of Adjudicator Mr John Lane, in which my appeal was refused, I now wish to apply to the adjudicator for a review of the decision under paragraph 12 of Schedule 1 to The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022. I am making this application within 14 days of the date of the adjudicator’s decision.
I am seeking review on the following ground(s): The interests of justice require a review.
My reasons for applying for a review are as follows:
1. The adjudicator failed to address and consider the very specific fact that the second alleged "road" is private and gated to which the public does not have access. It is therefore not a "road" as per the Road Traffic Act 1988 definition and the yellow box is therefore not in a permitted location. This was detailed in the original appeal to TfL, but does not appear to have been considered by the adjudicator. I enclose a photograph below of the supposed “road” in question, and the yellow box. This is clearly private, gated, closed, and thus the “road” is not at all accessible to the public. It therefore fails to meet the legal definition of “road”. It should be noted that the gate was closed at the time of the alleged contravention.
 

I quote below some legal cases, and also a London Tribunals adjudication, that further confirm this viewpoint. There is no information/detail as to how the adjudicator came to his conclusion. TfL also failed to provide any evidence that it is a "road" to which the public have access.


London Tribunals case 2220655535 (Kate Gardener vs London Borough of Croydon):

This is a case in which a box junction has been placed at a junction between a private driveway and a road. The appeal was allowed. The junction above, Ealing Village, is also a private driveway, and so this case sets an important precedent.

“Second, I find that the box junction in this particular case extends beyond a junction, it appears to extend for some distance in front of the driveway of a private building. Whilst the TSRGD 2016 has relaxed the law in relation to box junctions, such as the need for Departmental approval and to touch the kerb. They did not dispense with the requirement for box junctions to be at junctions (or outside police or fire stations); they cannot be placed anywhere.”


From https://www.londondrinkdrivingsolicitor.co.uk/-What-is-a-road-anyway:

"Mrs Justice Rafferty held in Hallett v DPP that the presence of a sign or barrier lends weight to a claim that the land is open only to a special class of the public and thus that it is not a road to which the public has access."

"The Divisional Court, presided over by Lord Widgery, heard the case of Deacon v AT (A Minor) and concluded that the land must be open to the public in general and not merely a special class of the public, such as residents or visitors."

2. TfL took 5 months to respond to representations. The adjudicator seems to have ignored the fact that (as quoted on London Tribunals own website: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process) "the adjudicators have decided that a Enforcement Authority should normally respond to representations within 3 months." In this case, TfL have given no explanation to justify the undue delay in sending their Notice of Rejection.

Have you heard anything yet from the adjudicator? I recently got a PCN with maybe half of my vehicle remained in the box. I think in such a heavy traffic road it is really harsh to have such a yellow box, and no wonder it is one of the most fined yellow box in London...

So if your appeal is successful, i would try to do the same...
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: meaty on June 12, 2024, 12:11:27 pm
Thanks all.

There is a helpful website which actually has a pretty perfect photograph of the exact junction in question, gate and all, which I've included in my appeal for review: https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/1-the-box
Yes that's my site and I took that photo  :)

Personally I would not have referenced the croydon case. I've seen adjudicators use other references as an excuse to refuse because it's different.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: cp8759 on June 07, 2024, 11:02:46 pm
@NotFair well if you've fixed your spam filter and your case gets listed for a review hearing I can still represent you, let me know if you get a review listing.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on June 03, 2024, 05:39:22 pm
Reads well to me, but I've got no experience in submitting a review application so wait for others to comment.

Just to check, as the video link no longer works.  Was the gate definitely closed when you stopped there? Seems like it's open quite often so wouldn't want you to undermine your case when the video is reviewed.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on June 03, 2024, 02:02:37 pm
Thanks all.

There is a helpful website which actually has a pretty perfect photograph of the exact junction in question, gate and all, which I've included in my appeal for review: https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/1-the-box

I've submitted this:

---

Following the decision of Adjudicator Mr John Lane, in which my appeal was refused, I now wish to apply to the adjudicator for a review of the decision under paragraph 12 of Schedule 1 to The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022. I am making this application within 14 days of the date of the adjudicator’s decision.
I am seeking review on the following ground(s): The interests of justice require a review.
My reasons for applying for a review are as follows:
1.   The adjudicator failed to address and consider the very specific fact that the second alleged "road" is private and gated to which the public does not have access. It is therefore not a "road" as per the Road Traffic Act 1988 definition and the yellow box is therefore not in a permitted location. This was detailed in the original appeal to TfL, but does not appear to have been considered by the adjudicator. I enclose a photograph below of the supposed “road” in question, and the yellow box. This is clearly private, gated, closed, and thus the “road” is not at all accessible to the public. It therefore fails to meet the legal definition of “road”. It should be noted that the gate was closed at the time of the alleged contravention.
 

I quote below some legal cases, and also a London Tribunals adjudication, that further confirm this viewpoint. There is no information/detail as to how the adjudicator came to his conclusion. TfL also failed to provide any evidence that it is a "road" to which the public have access.


London Tribunals case 2220655535 (Kate Gardener vs London Borough of Croydon):

This is a case in which a box junction has been placed at a junction between a private driveway and a road. The appeal was allowed. The junction above, Ealing Village, is also a private driveway, and so this case sets an important precedent.

“Second, I find that the box junction in this particular case extends beyond a junction, it appears to extend for some distance in front of the driveway of a private building. Whilst the TSRGD 2016 has relaxed the law in relation to box junctions, such as the need for Departmental approval and to touch the kerb. They did not dispense with the requirement for box junctions to be at junctions (or outside police or fire stations); they cannot be placed anywhere.”


From https://www.londondrinkdrivingsolicitor.co.uk/-What-is-a-road-anyway:

"Mrs Justice Rafferty held in Hallett v DPP that the presence of a sign or barrier lends weight to a claim that the land is open only to a special class of the public and thus that it is not a road to which the public has access."

"The Divisional Court, presided over by Lord Widgery, heard the case of Deacon v AT (A Minor) and concluded that the land must be open to the public in general and not merely a special class of the public, such as residents or visitors."

2.   TfL took 5 months to respond to representations. The adjudicator seems to have ignored the fact that (as quoted on London Tribunals own website: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process) "the adjudicators have decided that a Enforcement Authority should normally respond to representations within 3 months." In this case, TfL have given no explanation to justify the undue delay in sending their Notice of Rejection.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on June 01, 2024, 12:26:20 pm
Worth also including a reference to the fact the adjudicator seems to have ignored the fact that (as quoted on London Tribunals own website) "the adjudicators have decided that a Enforcement Authority should normally respond to representations within 3 months."  In this case, TFL have given no explanation to justify the undue delay in sending their Notice of Rejection.

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: meaty on May 30, 2024, 10:19:09 pm
I am just wondering what to write and how to phrase, as the review criteria seem very specific.
Please see below. Add a photo of the gate with the yellow box if not already clear. Was the gate closed when you got your ticket? Use template at link below. I have emailed review request to them in the past
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/ruc/your-hearing/i-dont-agree-ruca-adjudicators-decision-what-can-i-do

I am requesting a review in the interest of justice. The adjudicator failed to address and consider the very specific fact that the second alleged "road" is private and gated and the public does not have access. It is therefore not a "road" as per the RTA 1988 definition and the yellow box is not in a permited location. I quote below some legal cases that further confirm this viewpoint. There is no information/detail as to how the adjudicator came to his conclusion. TfL also failed to provide any evidence that it is a "road" to which the public have access.

https://www.londondrinkdrivingsolicitor.co.uk/-What-is-a-road-anyway
"Mrs Justice Rafferty held in Hallett v DPP that the presence of a sign or barrier lends weight to a claim that the land is open only to a special class of the public and thus that it is not a road to which the public has access."

"The Divisional Court, presided over by Lord Widgery, heard the case of Deacon v AT (A Minor) and concluded that the land must be open to the public in general and not merely a special class of the public, such as residents or visitors."
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: Incandescent on May 30, 2024, 12:35:35 am
Sod the Review Criteria, you have the right to request a review ! Hopeflly, you'll get one of the more experienced adjudicators on the review. 

I would go for "in the interests of justice", because over the years since decriminalise enforcement came in in 1991 nearly 35 years ago, there have been High Court rulings on the process, one of which clearly stated that if a public authority are given penal powers by Parliament, the expectation is that those powers will be exercised fairly and expeditiously

Information on the London Tribunals website as you posted, mentions the problems that can arise for excessive delay in enforcement. This adjudicator ignored his own website !

I'm afraid your case is a classic example of why we recommend never to opt for a papers-based hearing.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on May 29, 2024, 11:14:58 pm
Yes, post 19. I posted that a couple of days before submission to TfL.

It was, unfortunately, a papers hearing. Lesson learned.

I still have 5 days to go before the 14 days for review are up. I am just wondering what to write and how to phrase, as the review criteria seem very specific.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: Incandescent on May 29, 2024, 09:56:58 pm
Not yet.
I came here to seek some advice first.
Please feel free to suggest what I should write?
I thought my tribunal appeal was fine 🤷🏽.
Clearly it wasn't.
Have you posted the full reps, and was it put up here for a review before the adjudication ?  ALso this was a papers-based adjudication ?  Bitter experience here of papers-based adjudications means we never recommend this. I'm afraid it is a fact that there are some adjudicators at LT that can only be described as "time servers". So best to go for a review if you're still in time to request one.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on May 29, 2024, 08:53:18 pm
Not yet.
I came here to seek some advice first.
Please feel free to suggest what I should write?
I thought my tribunal appeal was fine 🤷🏽.
Clearly it wasn't.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: meaty on May 29, 2024, 12:00:58 am
Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the legal definition
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and only look at what they've been told? They should check the legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.
Well, sorry, but they are adjudicators, so must only deal with the evidence presented to them by the two parties. That's the way it works, and is intended to work, so if there is a next time, come on here and never, ever, go for an adjudication on papers-only basis.
Wasn't me doing the appeal. How do you know this is the way it is intended to work? Do you have a link to their terms of reference or job description that says this? Its not "evidence" that's the issue. The "evidence" of an illegal box is staring them in the face, its the fact they refuse to consider or check it unless a lay motorist raises it. I saw the same for years at the illegal box outside camberwell bus garage.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: Incandescent on May 28, 2024, 11:22:40 pm
Have you requested a review of the decision ?
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on May 28, 2024, 11:19:13 pm
Do the adjudicators not refer to the original reps (as is stated when completing the tribunal application)?

I didn't include all the fine details as they're all mentioned in the reps, which they say they will read...

The process is unfair to the lay person (me) if the adjudication only looks at the tribunal form and absolutely nothing else.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: Incandescent on May 28, 2024, 10:17:52 pm
Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the legal definition
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and only look at what they've been told? They should check the legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.
Well, sorry, but they are adjudicators, so must only deal with the evidence presented to them by the two parties. That's the way it works, and is intended to work, so if there is a next time, come on here and never, ever, go for an adjudication on papers-only basis.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: meaty on May 28, 2024, 09:25:16 pm
Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the legal definition
I find it unbelievable that these adjudicators who are supposed to be the experts need to be led by lay people. Is there anything in their remit that says they must put on blinkers and only look at what they've been told? They should check the legality of every box as part of a standard process regardless of whether or not it is raised in the appeal.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on May 28, 2024, 09:26:12 am
Alas, yes, an in person (or on the phone) appeal would have helped here as there's nothing in the text below which guides the adjudicator as to why you think the road doesn't meet the legal definition (key to stress it's private and gated so the public don't have unfettered access).  A link to that picture on Google Street View with the gate closed would have been really useful.

The reference to 56 days probably also threw him off as that's a misstatement of the box junction legislation.  He needed to be reminded (made aware?) that the adjudicators have themselves stated 3 months as the benchmark for unfair delay without a good excuse from TFL.

Not trying to make you feel worse, just trying to be constructive for future cases to avoid same mistake being made twice.

Hopefully, someone here can assist with a review application.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on May 28, 2024, 09:12:55 am
Thanks for the replies.

Unfortunately cp8759, I missed your message. It turns out all e-mail notifications from this forum appear to be getting intercepted by the spam filter, which is a shame, as I'd have taken you up on it.

The hearing was on the papers. I had no ability to attend personally.

I will dig out the original reps.

This was my LT appeal (which I expect to be criticised for!):

Quote
ABUSE OF PROCESS
Transport for London have taken in excess of 5 months to respond to the representations initially submitted. This is significantly more than the 56 day limit stated in the regulations. It is highly unreasonable for Transport for London to abuse the process in this manner. Despite the length of time taken, their response does not in any way address the representations submitted and almost entirely ignores the core issue raised. This is unreasonably dismissive and constitutes a failure to consider.

ORIGINAL REPRESENTATIONS
TfL have largely ignored the original representation that the yellow box junction in question is invalid. The yellow box does not meet the official definition per the law. We maintain that the contravention cannot have occurred on this basis.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: cp8759 on May 28, 2024, 12:31:03 am
@NotFair I did offer to represent you but I never heard back from you. I'm willing to try a review if you're interested in still pursuing this, but I have to say you've made it significantly harder by trying to argue the appeal yourself.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on May 27, 2024, 09:09:01 pm
@NotFair did you attend the appeal or was it done on the papers?
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: meaty on May 27, 2024, 08:26:57 pm
Agreed, the public clearly does not have access to a private gated road. No evidence that point was considered.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: Incandescent on May 27, 2024, 05:52:21 pm
Seems to me that a review should be requested, as the adjudicator has totally ignored advice on their own website which woul encourage anybody reading it, to register an appeal if a response is delayed well over that period, plus ignored the fact that the road in question is gated, so not a public road.

Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on May 27, 2024, 04:43:55 pm
I'm very surprised at this outcome.  The London Tribunals own website emphasises "The adjudicators have decided that a Enforcement Authority should normally respond to representations within 3 months."

Did you emphasise this point and that Ealing Village is a private and gated?

Case number is 2240112496 if anyone wants to look in more detail.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on May 27, 2024, 03:36:19 pm
The adjudicator didn't find either point in my favour. Very disappointing and means that TfL now have a precedent with respect to what I feel is clearly an illegal box junction.

--

Quote
The issue of this appeal is whether the said vehicle entered and stopped within the box junction there owing to the presence of another stationary vehicle. It is a contravention if a person causes their vehicle to enter a box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

To stop means to come to a stand as in the course of a journey, to halt or to cease moving.

The contravention was created by statute: Paragraph 11 of Part 7, Schedule 9 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD).

The contravention does not apply to any person

a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right: and

b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

The appellant has stated the markings need to be removed from the location; Ealing Village is not a road. Transport for London responded to the appellant’s representations after the 56 days deadline.

I have considered fully the representations of both parties and I have examined carefully the video evidence provided by the local authority.

Did the appellant cause their vehicle to stop on the box junction because of the presence of another stationary vehicle?

I am satisfied by it that the appellant’s vehicle followed another vehicle onto the box junction. The first vehicle stopped and it prevented the appellant’s vehicle from clearing the box junction. Consequently, the appellant’s vehicle entered and stopped on the box junction owing to the presence of another stationary vehicle in front of it in circumstances other than the one permitted statutory exemption. Crucially the appellant’s vehicle did not wait outside the entrance to the box junction before entering the box junction. Had it done so and waited for a definite clear space there would have been no contravention. . It is not uncommon for traffic to proceed in a line onto the box junction but this is what box junctions try to prevent.

The appellant has asserted that the contravention did not occur.

As stated, had the appellant’s vehicle waited for clear space before entering the box junction then it would not have been affected by whatever occurred on the other side, such as a change of colour of traffic lights or pedestrians crossing the road or vehicles suddenly stopping.

A Box Junction is defined in Paragraph 11(6) of Part 7, Schedule 9 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (TSRGD). It means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in the diagram at item 25 of Schedule 9, part 6 of the TSRGD.

I am satisfied that the box junction in this case complies with paragraph 5 of Part 8 of the TSRGD.

A road is defined by section 142 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as any length of highway, or of any other road to which the public has access. I am not persuaded that the roads are not roads within the said definition.

I must find that the local authority was entitled to issue the penalty notice. The penalty notice in this case was issued under Section 6 of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. The local authority is entitled to issue the penalty notice to the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle concerned.

Paragraph 1(7) of Schedule 1 of the London Local Authorities Act 2003 states that it shall be the duty of the local authority to consider the appellant’s representations and serve on that person notice of their decision.

There is no statutory time limit, within which the local authority must serve the notice.

I am satisfied that the penalty notice expressed the correct penalty amount, a fixed penalty, fixed by law. It did not therefore exceed the relevant amount in all the circumstances of the case.

It follows that I must refuse the appeal.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on February 19, 2024, 07:41:31 pm
They have reoffered the discount but the wording in the letter is hopelessly confusing.

Nevertheless, the other points stand. I'll take it to a tribunal.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: Hippocrates on February 19, 2024, 11:27:10 am
I bet Mr cp8759 would love this job.  ;)
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: Incandescent on February 19, 2024, 12:05:51 am
Well, it is a total no-brainer to take them to London Tribunals as there is no re-offer of the discount, plus their extremely tardy response to your reps.  5 months is really quite ridiculous, and you should emphasise this in your reps to LT. Yes, it is LLA & TfL Act 2003, and not the TMA 2004, which imposes 56 days max for response.  Any adudicator worth his pay should regard 5 months to respond as abuse of process.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on February 18, 2024, 10:36:44 pm
As expected, NoR has now been received (more than 5 months after submission of reps).

The only line refuting the matter of my appeal says that the 'road is TfL property.' I don't think that makes any of the appeal reasoning invalid, and think I should take this to a tribunal.

(https://i.ibb.co/By2jHVF/PCN.jpg) (https://ibb.co/By2jHVF)
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on August 28, 2023, 09:39:52 pm
I have embellished the content slightly, in the hope that some more detail might increase the 1% chance that TfL won't force this to a Tribunal.

Quote
The alleged contravention did not occur, and the box junction markings need to be removed from this location.

Schedule 7, Part 9, 11 (6) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 sets out the permitted locations for yellow boxes. In addition Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 defines a "road" as: “any highway and any other road to which the public has access”. Ealing Village is not a road to which the public have access; it is a gated drive to which there is no public access.

The box junction markings are not at the junction of two or more roads. Thus, no contravention can ever occur at this location.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: cp8759 on August 28, 2023, 05:55:46 pm
It seems the TFL website is undergoing maintenance so you probably won't be able to make representations until tomorrow. When you do, don't forget to get a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on August 28, 2023, 05:39:12 pm
Many thanks everyone.

I didn't realise the "junction" in question is not actually at the Hanger Lane roundabout. I posted "Hanger Lane" because that's what the PCN says!

In addition to the Pepipoo thread referenced by MrChips, I've found this website which references the exact same yellow box as an example of a non-junction: https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/1-the-box
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: cp8759 on August 28, 2023, 02:44:14 pm
@MrChips that case was a case of a private individual where the name field was swapped out for "the company secretary".

For instance if your car is registered to Mr Chips with DVLA at 123 High Street, and TFL sends a PCN to "The Company Secretary, 123 High Street", that PCN is obviously invalid.

If on the other hand TFL send a PCN to The Company Secretary, Stanmore Quality Surfacing Ltd, 123 High Street (as they frequently do, even though they never get paid), that's perfectly acceptable because they've served it on an actual company.

In this case the car is registered to a limited company and the limited company has been served, so none of the issues in the case you've highlighted apply. Also see sections 1139 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/1139) and 1140 of the Companies Act 2006 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/1140).
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on August 28, 2023, 02:20:31 pm
In case there's anything useful on there, here's the case I was recalling from pepipoo

Also involved a company secretary

http://www.pepipoo.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t135162.html
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: cp8759 on August 28, 2023, 01:38:19 pm
Prior to my previous post I did search through multiple successful tribunal decisions at this location and none were based on this argument.  Perhaps TFL tactically do not contest where this ground is raised?
My suspicion is that nobody has ever raised it.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on August 28, 2023, 12:41:10 pm
Various sources highlight this as one of the most penalised box junctions in London, so would be good to get a decision that it's not valid.

Prior to my previous post I did search through multiple successful tribunal decisions at this location and none were based on this argument.  Perhaps TFL tactically do not contest where this ground is raised?
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: cp8759 on August 28, 2023, 12:26:06 pm
Finally have the DVD.

Seems bang to rights.
Not if you look at the "junction" from here:

https://goo.gl/maps/QE89gHurxd74qC8B9

This is easy peasy:

Dear Transport for London,

The alleged contravention did not occur, and the box junction markings need to be removed from this location. This is because Ealing Village is not a road to which the public have access, it is a gated drive to which there is no public access. It follows that the box junction markings are not at the junction of two or more roads, so no contravention can ever occur at this location.

Yours faithfully,

@mrmustard, one for next year's objections against TFL's accounts.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on August 27, 2023, 12:11:59 pm
Ealing Village is a private road and has space for 132 vehicles. There currently is not a parking permit system. Instead everyone is encouraged to co-operate in a voluntary approach to moderate the use of parking on the estate.

(From a quick Google search)
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: MrChips on August 27, 2023, 12:04:31 pm
I'm away on holiday at the moment so can't wait check myself but I think I've seen previous cases here and there might be an argument that the side road (Ealing village) isn't a road to which the public have unfettered access, and hence isn't a 'road' under the yellow box junction regulations.

If that's right, there's no contravention in spite of the video showing a clear entering and stopping due to stationary vehicles...
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on August 26, 2023, 09:21:17 pm
The company.

Well, the full registration is...

"Driver's name c/o Company's name"

...as the driver, who is a director, is the only driver of the car.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: Pastmybest on August 26, 2023, 09:14:00 pm
Call TFL and ask for the video, they will put the penalty on hold and send you a DVD in the post.

Also, please tell us what your connection is t the limited company.

As long as the car is actually registered to a company there's nothing wrong with the PCN being addressed to the Company Secretary, but TFL have a habit of messing up the process when it comes to limited companies making representations, see paragraphs 68 to 70 of https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf

Thanks, I will do that.
The driver of the car is a company director.

Who is the vehicle registered to
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on August 26, 2023, 07:52:00 pm
Finally have the DVD.

Seems bang to rights.

https://streamable.com/fn4j6q
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on August 10, 2023, 01:27:52 pm
No sign of a DVD.
I'll call them to chase it...
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on July 31, 2023, 04:56:01 pm
I have requested the footage. They've placed a hold on the PCN for 14 days.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: cp8759 on July 30, 2023, 01:34:19 am
The absolute deadline to make representations is 24 August 2023, but really you should chase the video if you've not had it within a week or so.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on July 29, 2023, 06:09:08 pm
Call TFL and ask for the video, they will put the penalty on hold and send you a DVD in the post.

Also, please tell us what your connection is t the limited company.

As long as the car is actually registered to a company there's nothing wrong with the PCN being addressed to the Company Secretary, but TFL have a habit of messing up the process when it comes to limited companies making representations, see paragraphs 68 to 70 of https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf

Thanks, I will do that.
The driver of the car is a company director.
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: cp8759 on July 29, 2023, 03:46:17 pm
Call TFL and ask for the video, they will put the penalty on hold and send you a DVD in the post.

Also, please tell us what your connection is t the limited company.

As long as the car is actually registered to a company there's nothing wrong with the PCN being addressed to the Company Secretary, but TFL have a habit of messing up the process when it comes to limited companies making representations, see paragraphs 68 to 70 of https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/files/keycases/Red%20Route%20Panel%20Decision.pdf
Title: Re: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on July 29, 2023, 03:43:39 pm
VRM: AF72TFO
PCN: GX0883096A
Title: TfL Yellow Box - Hanger Lane
Post by: NotFair on July 29, 2023, 03:36:35 pm
PCN received by post addressed to "The Company Secretary" for an alleged yellow box contravention.
The driver can't remember the event. The CCTV photos provided are 4 seconds apart and so I'm not sure a de minimis argument can be made.
I have read that addressing to "The Company Secretary" might be a flaw?

(https://i.ibb.co/KFcKCvn/Scan-29-Jul-23-13-47-25.jpg) (https://ibb.co/18YzHWc)