Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Ali khan on July 28, 2023, 06:00:51 pm
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Well after an exercise that felt very much like pulling teeth, I've finally got hold of The Bedford Borough Council (Bedford Controlled Parking Zone) (Prohibition and Restriction of Waiting and Loading and Parking Places) Order 2017 (Amendment No.22) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1oRoF11PWFr6z61AfyqNEffnTQyuTODGT), which amends The Bedford Borough Council (Bedford Controlled Parking Zone) (Prohibition and Restriction of Waiting and Loading and Parking Places) Order 2017 (https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/TRO/Bedford/CPZ-Consolidation-Order-2017.pdf).
Interestingly the order does appear to define the CPZ, so at least we know for future Bedford cases.
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Thanks all, for all your contributions. I have taken this on board and the majority of opinion here cpz would serve us better with rather than without. I hope my local councillors come up with something soon regards verge parking, as mentioned in a message here, despite cancelling the PNC they've put me on notice for it.
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The kerb distance between Maryville and Churchill for example, excluding the DYL, is 47m. In 2 dimensions there are 7 frontages, but in 3 dimensions who knows?
47m is 9-10 car lengths.
So, 1 car per 2-dimensional frontage. Not 2 or 3.
You cannot suddenly create more space to cater for 2/3 car households.
The council invent a problem and then say you have a problem.
It doesn't look like it. When planning approval is given to new developments these are often 'car-free' in that cars would not be permitted to park on the road.
For existing properties councils use other mechanisms such as gradated pricing mechanisms for permits. You can't get a quart from a pint pot.
Permit parking is the only way to keep out interlopers and optimise the space available for residents.
Not that I agree with your approach, but your solution would be to keep permit parking but sub-divide the CPZ e.g. permits SV only for Southville residents.
But be careful about what you wish for!
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I emailed them today in a complaint as i mentioned this last week via the councillor and parking services that emergency vechiles will not pass if parking is according to bays, they all seem to push the issue from one department to the next,according to parking services it's highways that i need to speak to, but no doubt if i speak to them it will be parking that i need to speak to,had enough of running around in circles so put in a complaint.
This isn't a service complaint, this is a political issue that you can only take up with your local councillors.
To recycle my previous example, there would be no point in me writing to the police or that highways agency to complain that the speed limit is stupid, they'd just pass me from pillar to post and I wouldn't get anywhere. The correct redress would be for me to take this up with my MP.
The same is true here, this is a political issue that needs to be taken up by your local councillors. If your councillors take this up, they can promote an amendment to the traffic order to permit off-carriageway parking. This is not something council officers, either in parking or anywhere else, will do for you. Even if a council officer did take this up (which is unlikely in the extreme), they'd have to take it to the councillors to get it signed-off, so you might as well start with them in the first place.
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I emailed them today in a complaint as i mentioned this last week via the councillor and parking services that emergency vechiles will not pass if parking is according to bays, they all seem to push the issue from one department to the next,according to parking services it's highways that i need to speak to, but no doubt if i speak to them it will be parking that i need to speak to,had enough of running around in circles so put in a complaint.
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In your shoes I would still pursue the width issue. I would not like to watch my house burn as the fire brigade couldn't get through because of cars parked in accordance with the Council's latest scheme.
If no-one tellls the Council and the fire brigade of the problem nothing will be done :(
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Residents returning from work in the evening would congest the area as some households are bedsits with 2 cars per household as well as some family households with more than 2 cars, i never had a problem with finding parking during the day. With us being the last in the cpz zone and the charges councils place on 2nd and 3rd cars in a household i do know of some residents who were already in a cpz that were reluctant to pay the fees they charge for the 2nd and 3rd cars and then would use this area to park and hey ho the council would say you have a parking problem here, half of it because they push people without permits in pre existing cpz's to park in roads where they dont exist and because we have a series of walkways it only takes 1 min to be on college road, muswell road and mabel road that were pre existing cpz. I guess I'll give up on the idea. The council invent a problem and then say you have a problem.. If they charged the same amount per car regardless of how many cars you had it probably wouldn't be such an issue for people to try and find alternative parking but when you charge excessively more for the 2nd and 3rd cars it hardly seems fair and almost forces people to find parking elsewhere, I'll hang up my boots as the battle i guess will be lost.. Long live fleecing the motorist from all sides. Thanks to all those who gave an input to this subject, hopefully at some point they'll change it to allow us to park on the verges,i guess they would have to, Bedfordshire fire brigade if the info i found today are 3m wide mirror to mirror.
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The problem is that the OP hasn't given us any info regarding the process.
OP, don't reinvent the wheel.
The normal procedure (having determined that there might be a problem) is for the council to:
Call for evidence from stakeholders- normally a letter seeking views on whether the recipient has experienced problems, their details, what they think might be the cause, why?
Possibly a roadshow;
Consideration of options and further consultation on (if it exists) a preferred option;
Officer recommendations to decision maker;
Draft order with mandatory consultation period;
EVERY letter/notice would include the responsible officer's name and contact details.
OP?
Anyway, as you don't have a live PCN perhaps this should be continued in the Flame Pit.
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full edit
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I must admit, I had assumed (dangerous I know) that it was the requirement to park wholly on the carriageway that needed abolition. There are many places where parking half on pavement is allowed. and many where bays are painted to facilitate this.
It seems to me that Ali has two main issues:
1) obstruction of traffic by parking in marked bays
2) timing of end of restriction at 6pm.
re 2: would changing to 7pm help? or 8pm?
Could it be that the problem in the evening is caused by residents returning from work or from using non-permit areas during the hours of enforcement, rather than by outsiders?
I used to live in an area surrounded by ever-increasing CPZs. As my area became the last CP free zone for miles around, on-street parking became virtually impossible and residents were begging the Council for a CPZ.
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Have what abolished, the requirement to display a permit in Southville or the whole amended area?
1. In Southville alone
Why would you want to? Apparently the reason for introducing the controls was because residents had raised concerns with the council about 'congested parking by visitors'. For visitors read any non-resident.
So if you changed Southville only you would worsen, not improve, the situation because those motorists displaced from other streets would soon clutter your street and then where would you park?
2. The whole amended area?
On what basis, your experiences? A non-starter especially since you had your chance to express views during the consultation period before the council finalised its plans and during the formal consultation period of the order.
3. Or what other option
??
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on a further note do you think there is anything we can to do have this abolished or once implemented it's here to stay
You'll never know until you try.
As I said, start with your local ward councillors, enlist the support of your neighbours.
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Thank you for all your help regards this matter, on a further note do you think there is anything we can to do have this abolished or once implemented it's here to stay. I wasn't in favour and i know having spoken to the vast majority of residents they weren't either hence why the lack of communication from the council, it does appear that this has been a back door implementation of the cpz around here, don't ever remember receiving anything regards it until it was approved , parking was never a problem during the day even GSV shows an abundance of places to park and it was only ever in the evening parking was a problem and with the restricted parking times finishing at 6pm it doesn't solve the evening parking issues and most residents new this wouldn't and were against it.
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Congratulations :) :)
You are now free to pursue the case for amending the traffic order
https://www.bedford.gov.uk/media/5461
to allow parking half on pavement as before.
Begin with your own ward councillors
https://councillorsupport.bedford.gov.uk/mgFindMember.aspx?XXR=0&AC=WARD&WID=12835&sPC=Enter%20postcode
and through them the environment committee.
You need to enlist the support of your neighbours.
As I indicated earlier, your strongest point would seem to be
It surely cannot be right that the Council are insisting that cars park in such a manner as to cause an obstruction - in itself an offence.
You need to point out the inability, not only of rubbish trucks, but more seriously fire-engines etc., to reach properties.
You should find these
Road widths are given here
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/341513/pdfmanforstreets.pdf
page 79 and onstreet parking discussed pages 102ff.
Road widths are also discussed here
https://mocktheorytest.com/resources/how-wide-are-roads/
helpful in making your case.
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Be aware that the Council's cancellation of your PCN puts you (and your neighbours) on notice that the Council are strictly enforcing the condition made when issuing a permit to park within a marked bay.
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I recieved this today.
(https://i.imgur.com/Z8D9FU8.jpeg)
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https://www.bedford.gov.uk/media/5464
https://www.bedford.gov.uk/media/5460
Reason for Proposal:
Bedford Borough Council has received a request to extend Permit Holders and Pay and Display parking to include St Leonard’s Avenue, Station Road, Maryville Road, Churchville Road, Eastville Road and Southville Road, Bedford. Congested parking in these streets by visitors reduces available parking for residents.
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Reposted with address redacted
https://imgur.com/a/InF7rhn
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You might want to redact your name and address.
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The paper part can be seen here.
https://imgur.com/a/fo3F4tO
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There's two aspect to this, the legalities and common sense.
By the letter of the law, you cannot take it upon yourself to decide to park outside of the bay markings, just as I can't decide to do 100 mph on the motorway just because I think the 70 mph limit is outdated and stupid.
That being said, please can we see the terms and conditions for your permit? It has been held on numerous occasions that the requirement to park within the bay markings must be communicated to motorists, and this is usually done in a CPZ but saying so in the terms and conditions of the permits. If this requirement has not been communicated to motorists, it can be argued that this requirement of the traffic regulation order has not been brought to the attention of persons using the road, and for that reason the contravention did not occur.
Decisions on this point:
Cooper v London Borough of Richmond Upon Thames (1990292199, 18 July 2000) (http://bit.ly/3ZXRgh0)
Ernesto Villa Blandino v London Borough of Barnet (2110474195, 28 November 2011) (http://bit.ly/3WCbvxL)
Michal Budai v London Borough of Barnet (2120008348, 06 February 2012) (http://bit.ly/3iZgaMB)
Caroline Ratner v London Borough of Barnet (2140338414, 10 September 2014) (http://bit.ly/3JaxaKG)
Cheryl Kuczynski v London Borough of Barnet (2160033974, 30 April 2016) (http://bit.ly/3J3WCkW)
Sultan Gangji v London Borough of Barnet (2160439695, 15 November 2016) (http://bit.ly/3XyBQy4)
Tecwyn Evans v London Borough of Merton (2160499981, 05 January 2017) (http://bit.ly/3wlTfOL)
Gerald Halibard v London Borough of Barnet (2170225166, 15 June 2017) (http://bit.ly/3Hmjg5J)
Lamin Sesay v London Borough of Southwark (2180188510, 22 June 2018) (http://bit.ly/3kAFUj0)
Anthony Westmore v London Borough of Barnet (2180064744, 15 March 2018) (http://bit.ly/3nwzArv)
Keren Lewin v London Borough of Haringey (2190290943, 28 August 2019) (http://bit.ly/3XI0n3A)
Then there's the common-sense issue of whether the bay markings should be changed to allow part-footway parking, this would require the nearside part of the bay to be marked on the pavement. That is a political issue to be taken up with the local councillor.
Finally there's the question of whether, in the circumstances where the council seems to be moving towards permitting part-footway parking on this road, the bay markings should be enforced in any event, even if they are enforceable. This comes down to the council's powers to not enforce the PCN.
I have requested the traffic order from the council, in the meantime please post the terms and conditions of your permit.
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https://imgur.com/a/GXxEvo1
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It is the same sign as covered up in GSV. Note the telegraph pole, the background houses, satellite dish and roses! If this helps when you go on GSV I'm the vauxhall zafira parked on the opposite side on the day i got the ticket i was parked in the place of the hyundai well way from the edge of the bay, literally where he was parked is where i was parked
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I'm struggling to add more pictures to this post any suggestions please
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The covers came off on the 3rd of july this year, as far as the consultation goes I'm aware there was one, i assumed most of the residents were against it and that it wouldn't go ahead, other than how what and when i have no clue other than something i believe recieved in march this year to let us know it was going ahead.. On google maps it can me seen that the concrete verges are on the left hand side of southville road when you enter from Maryville road and then both sides after churchville road
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OP, you could take photos easily, so I suggest you do. Also, where are the councils photos?
@John UK, Poirotesque sleuthing is all well and good but we don't know where the OP's car was parked and this sign's relevance.
And for the benefit of other readers, as regards GSV there are moment in time shots (covering as long as it took the GSV vehicle to traverse the road) from Jun 2023, Apr 2012 and 2009 in each of which the majority of cars is parked on the carriageway, even after the parking bay markings had been placed. Closer inspection suggests a correlation between limited specific locations and parking on the footway i.e. vehicles in the immediate vicinity of the Churchville junction.
OP, over to you for the council's photos pl and the backstory.
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I can see a close-up of a traffic sign. No idea where it is or if Southville what side of the road.
It is the same sign as covered up in GSV. Note the telegraph pole, the background houses, satellite dish and roses!
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1218969,-0.4712496,3a,31.4y,324.15h,85.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4zq-TDaqydEnJtAqW0JiLQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
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Ali, could you give us the date when the covers came off and the scheme began, please.
Also give us some idea of the consultations before the scheme was made and the advance warnings of its commencement.
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I can see a close-up of a traffic sign. No idea where it is or if Southville what side of the road. Indeed, we haven't seen any photos of the OP's car in contravention.
OP, we only see what you post, not the context.
And as regards uncorroborated claims about refuse vehicles.. As I posted but to which the OP has not replied, we need the backstory. IMO and IME it totally implausible that this issue has come out of the blue and equally that the general points raised here have not already been aired with and considered by the council.
IMO, there is no chance of a successful defence of legitimate expectation based only on the evidence of a moment in time snapshot.
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GSV shows that you had a 'legitimate expectation' of part-parking on footway.
Sorry John UK, why is this very limited legal defence engaged here?
...pl can we have a clear photo of one of the parking signs - they're covered in GSV.
The sign is in reply#2.
It would appear that GSV date is before the new scheme came into force. However, the series of GSV shot give strength to the OP's challenge in reply#3. As the residents had always parked in that manner because otherwise (as was proved this week with a rubbish collection vehicle) wide vehicles cannot get through (fire-engines?) it seems reasonable to me that absent any direction to park wholly in marked bays, they would continue to park in the accustomed manner. I am aware that as a defence to the current PCN it would only work once, but am assuming the experts here may also be able to find further reasons for cancellation of the PCN after, for example, examiming the 'small print' and the TMO...
It surely cannot be right that the Council are insisting that cars park in such a manner as to cause an obstruction - in itself an offence.
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Note to Ali
You are fighting on two fronts --
1) against the current PCN
2) against the execution of the new scheme itself.
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GSV shows that you had a 'legitimate expectation' of part-parking on footway.
Sorry John UK, why is this very limited legal defence engaged here?
The most recent GSV shows shots from June 2023 and April 2012, not a comprehensive time series. In addition, there weren't parking bays in 2012, so the situations are chalk and cheese IMO.
OP, what is the backstory here and pl can we have a clear photo of one of the parking signs - they're covered in GSV.
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As per the guidance here https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/ please re-post the front of the PCN without redacting anything.
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GSV shows that you had a 'legitimate expectation' of part-parking on footway.
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Just noting these for the wider issue.
Road widths are given here
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/341513/pdfmanforstreets.pdf
page 79 and onstreet parking discussed pages 102ff.
Road widths are also discussed here
https://mocktheorytest.com/resources/how-wide-are-roads/
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Appeal
[attachment deleted by admin]
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These are the pics of front and back of pcn aswell as signage
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Please add both sides of the PCN and a copy of your challenge.
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Hi guys,
I was hoping to get some advice on a new cpz that's been intoduced in my area and the road that's causing numerous problems is Southville Road Bedford mk42 9ps, this went live on the 3rd of july this year.
Numerous tickets have been issued namely for no parking permit, but of late we have had tickets issued for not being parked in the marked bays, to adhere to this we would make it impossible for emergency vechiles to pass as the width is 245cm from bay edge on one side of the road to the bay edge on the other side and for this reason we would park on what used to be grass verges that were concreted over to accommodate the safe passing of vechiles but now for those that are parking on these verges the council are issuing pcns. Is anyone able to tell me if the width inbetween conforms to regulation standards and if it doesn't can the cpz for this road be classified as null and void until such a time it's corrected and that all those that were issued tickets entitled to a refund or those going forward contest on this point, street view will show at least i hope the width in comparison to the adjacent roads, i look forward to any help you might be able to give regards this matter.
Road view here,
https://www.google.com/maps/@52.1218969,-0.4712496,3a,75y,45.92h,80.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4zq-TDaqydEnJtAqW0JiLQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Thanks in advance,
Ali