Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: IHateUnfairPCNs on August 03, 2024, 06:22:13 pm
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If it's any help I won a case against shepway DC about 16 years ago on assisted boarding. I had to park on DYL and find an elderly gent who had got mislaid in the local market! I was a private hire driver at the time. I used the help of the good people of the late PPPsite and won the case. Gould-v-Shepway DC, it should be on the PPP "library" if that's acessible from here. I won at Tribunal.
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The more recent policy refers to 2 minutes' obs. On its own it doesn't prove your case, but by all means give it an appropriate profile.
the person I was picking up is elderly, disabled and had that specific incontinence. As far as I'm aware, that does sufficiently meet the conditions for assisted boarding
I'm not, but there we are. Not all disabilities require assistance, elderly is not a condition, it's a relative age and incontinence isn't relevant IMO because I don't see how it bears on the issue.
However, if they have difficulty walking unaided, which you said initially, and also has a BB - hopefully issued for this condition- then this would be my focus. You must be careful to ensure that reference to a BB is solely for the purpose of bolstering your evidence as to their physical condition, in this way there's no option for this to be disregarded.
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Please view pages 10 and 28/30 of the attached document which outlines cancellation procedures for those dealing with PCN's, to find their policy regarding 'picking up and setting down' i.e assisted boarding. Page 28 goes in depth in terms of the policy. I understand that the document is old, however I cannot find a more recent and similar document. It is also found specifically in the 'PCN spreadsheet' on the FTLA website. In that document named newhamparkingpolicyprocedures, nothing is stated about picking up and setting down, however the period of observation is mentioned required for code 40 is.
In the second attachment, please view subtitles: 4.4 - Observation Policy on page 36 and the corresponding Appendix C. As far as I'm aware, that document is the latest edition I can find after searching 'Newham parking policy' on Google, it being the first result
I must also state that in the Civil Enforcement Officers handbook document issued by London Councils (publicly available document), for code 40, it states that an observation period is required, with A (picking up and setting down being an exemption, no mention of requirement of valid BB) being an exemption.
As for the latter you've mentioned, the person I was picking up is elderly, disabled and had that specific incontinence. As far as I'm aware, that does sufficiently meet the conditions for assisted boarding and I have provided hard evidence to the council to prove that. He does have a blue badge but he forgot it at home, and the council will not accept pictures of it as it was not in the vehicle at the time of alleged contravention.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Can you direct us to what you say is the council's policy on assisted boarding pl. You keep referring to 2 minutes and twice the council have responded in the NOR that there is no such requirement for BB bays.
Also, IMO I was picking up an elderly person from a local mosque, who was having a medical bowel incontinence emergency, does not meet the conditions for assisted boarding. I'm going to be direct because we don't have time to dance around matters. You seem to have lost sight of what you need to present to meet the conditions for the assisted boarding exception, assuming it even applied.
You scoped:
Elderly;
Incontinence;
2 minutes observation;
'a friend of my father who has significant trouble with walking'.
I know which aspect I'd focus on because it bears directly on the conditions.
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Well, after supplying hard evidence in the form of a medical fit note issued by the GP of the elderly person which clearly stated he had diarrhea on the day of the alleged contravention, as well as further evidence showing that Newham's policy with observation periods/assisted boarding meant that my PCN should be cancelled... I have received this (lazy) notice of rejection.
I explained it correctly and made valid points, included the original PCN slip which showed 0 minutes observation time as well as what the standard observation time for code 40 etc...
The 1st point they mention is just lazy and absolutely factually incorrect. Newham's own policy state that picking up/setting down or assisted boarding can be done ANYWHERE except for bus stops, school keep-clears, pedestrian zig-zag markings and footway parking. There is no mention of disabled bays (whether they be for residents or for public use). This exemption applies for up to 2 minutes, and if longer than hard evidence must be supplied (I did so). No mention of the requirement for a valid disabled badge is found in the document/policy nor is it even hinted at, whether the assisted boarding took place in a disabled bay or anywhere else except the aforementioned.
The 2nd point is also false, as the serious offences they refer to are the one's mentioned above. Also, the serious offences which do not require an observation period and are subject to immediate enforcement are clearly distinguished in Appendix C of newhamparkingpolicyprocedures.pdf i.e those with 0 minutes and 'on-street'. An example of this which I did not mentioned above, is parking adjacent to a dropped footway i.e blocking a driveway. Surely my alleged offence under code 40 is not serious, as it has a observation time of 2 minutes. If it was serious, it would be stated as 0 minutes accordingly and then that point/paragraph would make sense.
I have a feeling that they did not even bother with looking at my evidence and just skimmed over what I wrote in my formal appeal. Also, they are offering me a discount at the rejection of formal representation stage, which is not normal from them. Would this win at the Tribunals or should I just pay to secure the discount, even though I am fully of the belief that I did NOT commit any contravention due to exemption.
It has got me starting to wonder why they are so biased in their judgement of appeals at these early stages.
(https://i.imgur.com/CgnwAfD.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RWfXPCF.jpeg)
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I have received the NtO. I have posted it via Imgur, please view if need be. I will by today, submit formal reps under the first ground for appeal: 'The contravention didn't occur' as I am arguing under the exemption: 'Assisted boarding' and also CEO Error
I also have obtained a fit note from the GP of the person I had picked up on that day, stating that he had diarrhea which necessitated him needing a pick-uo from the mosque. He has also written, by hand, a witness statement for me on that day which he has signed. As far as 'hard evidence' goes, I think in my opinion that is suitable enough (see previous, fob off rejection letter)
Also, CEO gave incorrect observation time contrary to Newham policy (which is 2 minutes), so I will mention that point in there too. I really don't want to go to Tribunals, as I got one ticket that is at that stage and quite frankly, it is super long-winded. I will attempt to refute their fob off letter precisely, as they did state they require hard evidence, which I have got.
Hopefully this is the end of it. If there is any other 'hard evidence' types that I have not considered to authenticate my circumstances, please let me know.
Any helpful advice regarding, including potentially a draft of formal reps given my previous replies in this thread would be hugely appreciated :)
(https://i.imgur.com/T22Dtxu.jpeg)
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The key is to provide evidence of difficulty in walking as that means assistance is needed. A note from any authority they will take notice of is what should work, and that could be a doctor (obviously), friend/family member with professional credentials, the imam etc.
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Get all you can.
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So, in terms of assisted boarding and that only, what hard evidence would be suitable? I don't think I can get a note from the imam as he wasn't involved. However, I can definitely get medical evidence to prove that he needed help with boarding, and I had to leave my car parked for 2 minutes to do so. The question is, what medical evidence would be suitable as it isn't clear... he did have diarrhea that day. Don't know if that is excusable.
Would a sick note be sufficient, or what about a witness statement signed by the person I was picking up, my dad's friend...
It's very hard to think of 'hard evidence' that they would require.
Either way, the CEO didn't observe my car for the 2 minutes that I was gone to assist him in boarding. I mentioned assisted boarding without evidence as I didn't think it would be needed, and wasn't clear on what exact evidence was needed to prove my version of events. But I want to mainly try appeal from the technicality of incorrect observation time, as if the CEO observed as per Newham policy, I would have made clear my circumstances to him and I wouldn't have got the ticket in the first place.
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It sounds like they will reconsider when presented with 'hard evidence' so I would go back to them with medical info, note from imam?, pic of person concerned maybe.
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The discounted sum of £65 is actually on offer until 24th Sept.
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Well, their informal challenge portal is not very helpful in terms of giving you any of the statutory grounds. Let's see what happens when the Notice to Owner is received. And if the grounds are irrelevant, wrong or incomplete on the website, then that is winnable at the Tribunal.
https://bit.ly/2ALghSS
Adjudications - key cases
629 ff.
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Well since I didn't park in contravention and there was also a clear and obvious CEO Error on the PCN that they don't want to acknowledge, I don't want to pay. I'll happily pay if I was liable and at fault.
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Well they are playing hard ball and will not reoffer the discount as I read it. So you have to decide. I agree that the rejection letter is a failure to consider. Can you provide proof etc ?
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Here is the rejection letter, it failed to attach!
Here is the link for it: https://acrobat.adobe.com/id/urn:aaid:sc:EU:de335904-b551-4351-b229-70cf3e793332
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UPDATE: I got a rejection letter from Newham Council, and the person behind my appeal barely bothered to read my appeal in detail as she mentions this (probably an automated/ready-made copypasta paragraph. Please advise on next steps, and whether or not I will still have the opportunity to pay the discounted rate, even after a potential formal representation rejection.
What kind of hard evidence would I need to supply to prove my circumstances, as the guidance she gave and the guidance of the council is VERY vague??? Also, my legitimate point about the incorrect observation time was not even acknowledged. She even said (highlighted) that the CEO didn't note any exempt activity during their observation... I wonder why that is lol. The CEO gave 0 minutes observation time, which is against Newham's own policy for disabled non-resident bays (2 minutes).
I am thinking of appealing formally, when the notice to owner comes, under 'The contravention did not occur' reason. Is that suitable? [attachurl=1]
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To be honest, it is a bit long, so I've cut it down a bit. I'm also not sure what you mean by
: had applied a 15-minute free parking allocation just in case, and nowhere on MiPermit or Newham Council website does it state that this is NOT allowed to be used in a disabled *non-resident* bay or does it say that this free parking allocation is ONLY for resident/shared use bays.
Dear Sirs
Re PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> served at <location>
I dispute liability for the above PCN, on the grounds that the contravention did not occur, for the reason of boarding a passenger.
In explanation, my itinerary for the day involved picking up an elderly person (a friend of my father who has significant trouble with walking and has diabetes. He also had diarrhea on that specific day). He came to the mosque for Friday Prayers with another person and I was tasked with picking him up and dropping him at his house.
I am aware that the law permits vehicles to stop and wait to pick up/drop off passengers, provided the time taken is reasonable in the circumstances. Those circumstances can include assisting disabled/elderly people and also children and includes collecting them from a nearby location.
Arriving at 13:35, I parked and proceeded to the mosque to collect and to assist my dad's elderly and disabled friend to my car.
However, upon arrival back at the car with my passenger at 13:38, I had to my surprise been issued a PCN. On the PCN, the observation time was shown as 0 minutes On inspection of the Newham Parking Policy Procedures, it is clear that the CEO did not follow council policy regarding Observation periods. This is clearly set out in the Newham Parking Policy Procedures document under sub-heading 4.4. It does say that there are some very serious offences which do not warrant a observation period, however my alleged offence does not fall under that as in Appendix C of the same document, the observation time period for a contravention code 40 offence is listed as '2 minutes'. Had CEO no.1462 followed standard council policy and waited these 2 minutes, He would've seen me approaching my vehicle and I would have made my circumstances clear then. Also, in the aforementioned document regarding incorrectly issued PCN's, on Page 5/30, it states that one of the cancellation options for these incorrect PCN's are 'CEO Error - No/incorrect Observation. Option A - It is a contravention where 2 minutes observation should have been carried out but the CEO in my case recorded 0 minutes observation i.e none
I should also state that as a resident, I had obtained a 15-minute free parking allocation just in case, and nowhere on MiPermit or Newham Council website does it state that this is NOT allowed to be used in a disabled *non-resident* bay nor does it say that this free parking allocation is ONLY for resident/shared use bays.
In light of the above circumstances, I request that you cancel this PCN because I was engaged in assisting a passenger with boarding my car, and in addition, arrange to retrain your CEO in the correct procedures for serving PCNs.
YOUrs faithfully
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I have got 2 days left to make an informal challenge within the discount period. I'd really appreciate if someone could help me out and check over.
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This is a draft of my informal challenge, please help me word it better or find any more standpoints on which to correctly appeal the PCN from. I would favour a quick response by anyone as I only have until 16th August to appeal this PCN within the discount period.
'Hello, I write to you today explaining why I firmly believe that this PCN was issued in error to my vehicle and why I believe that it should be cancelled in lieu of my specific circumstances, as well as a error committed by the CEO whilst issuing the PCN to my car.
My itinerary for the day involved picking up an elderly person (a friend of my father who has significant trouble with walking and has diabetes. He also had diarrhea on that specific day). He came to the mosque for Friday Prayers with another person and I was tasked with picking him up and dropping him to his house. I was planning on praying my Friday Prayers later in the day so I only came to pick him up and drop him off.
I circled the entire surrounding area TWICE of the mosque in question, Masjid Tauheed and could not find a single bay unoccupied to pick him up from. (I have a Zone E permit which allows me to wait/park in any resident/shared use bay). The only bay that was available, was this specific Blue Badge bay.
I am aware that in Newham, vehicles are permitted to stop and wait to pick up/drop off passengers for a total of 2 minutes, OR *longer* if need be due to a disability/elderly age etc. I am able to provide evidence in support of this claim, however it is unclear what type of evidence is required to substantiate it, therefore I will be omitting it temporarily for now. These rules regarding alighting passengers is clearly stated in a publicly available document which outlines the scenarios of incorrectly issued PCN's in Newham. It also states that there isn't an exemption under 'Picking up and setting down' should the contravening codes be: 62,47,99,48 but my Contravention code is 40, which implies that I was perfectly and legally permitted to wait for 2 minutes OR as long as necessary in that specific disabled bay
I arrived at 13:35. I tried to locate a CEO within the vicinity to explain my circumstances however they was not to be seen on East Avenue, nor on the corner of High Street North. I then made ways to assist my dad's elderly and disabled friend as due to the extreme overcrowding in the Friday Prayers, I feared that he would get lost and would not be able to find my car. Also, since he was suffering from diarrhea, I needed to make sure that he was OK and that I can safely escort him from the mosque to my car swiftly and quickly to avoid getting a PCN.
However, upon arrival at 13:38, I had to my surprise been issued a PCN and I was unable to find the CEO. On the PCN, the observation time was 0 minutes i.e the CEO did not follow council policy regarding Observation periods. This is clearly set out in the Newham Parking Policy Procedures document under sub-heading 4.4. It does say that there are some very serious offences which do not warrant a observation period, however my alleged offence does not fall under that as in Appendix C of the same document, the observation time period for a contravention code 40 offence is listed as '2 minutes'. Had CEO no.1462 followed standard council policy and waited these 2 minutes, He would've seen me approaching my vehicle and I would have made my circumstances clear then. Also, in the aforementioned document regarding incorrectly issued PCN's, on Page 5/30, it states that one of the cancellation options for these incorrect PCN's are 'CEO Error - No/incorrect Observation. Option A - It is a contravention where 2 minutes observation should have been carried out but the CEO in my case recorded 0 minutes observation i.e none
I should also state that I had applied a 15-minute free parking allocation just in case, and nowhere on MiPermit or Newham Council website does it state that this is NOT allowed to be used in a disabled *non-resident* bay or does it say that this free parking allocation is ONLY for resident/shared use bays.
In light of this, I highly request that you cancel this PCN due to CEO error and the fact that I was assisting a passenger with boarding. Thank you
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Draft a polite request for cancellation based on assisted boarding of a person with xxxx needs and nowhere else to wait near briefly and say you must have just missed the CEO as you were in and out in x minutes.
There's no point in having a go at observation time as that's not what you are claiming an exemption for and it's not something you can anyway.
Generally, assisted boarding/alighting takes as long as necessary but no more.
Post it here first.
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He is an elderly man who at the time was suffering from diarrhea and had to use the toilet after the Friday Prayer. It is very busy with over a 1000 attendees hence I had to go inside, look for him and make sure he’s alright and well, and escort him out (as he’s elderly). Don’t know what kind of evidence they would want for that hence why I haven’t submitted anything at this point
It took roughly 3 minutes and he was gone by the time I came which was at 13:35. Had he followed the observation time policy, he would’ve seen me coming but oh well. Also the cancellation document says that Option A) is the scenario where observation time was meant to be 5 mins (in my case: 2 mins with code 40) but CEO gave 3 mins… leads to cancelled PCN according to them.
This is why I’m confused, I can easily get this PCN cancelled with a sick note however I don’t want to go through that hassle if there is a procedural impropriety, and would like someone to help me draft ‘the perfect informal challenge’
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Assisted boarding is an exemption but with Newham you will probably have to provide evidence of need as to why the passenger couldn't wait for you outside.
Observation time is just guidance and a CEO will issue a PCN if nothing seems to be going on. How long did it take to get and board the passenger?
I can't see any time stamps on the pics.
(https://i.ibb.co/zJgJ9CD/Screenshot-2024-08-03-at-19-06-43.png)
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Google Maps Street view Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/QcWuELg2skphzPQa6
(https://i.imgur.com/gLaqiEP.jpg)
I was picking up an elderly person from a local mosque, who was having a medical bowel incontinence emergency and saw that there was absolutely no legal place to park at all near his location. Therefore, I decided to park in this vacant bay and quickly try to escort and pick him up. I do not initially want to go through the hassle of acquiring a fit/sick note as I believe there are two points I could appeal from, however if advised to so, I will:
1.) As far as I am aware, vehicles in Newham are allowed 2 minutes to drop off and pick up passengers as *stated by their own wording* in their cancellation policy document issued to their CS department who deal with these appeals. I found this document in the 'PCN spreadsheet' pinned on this site :
"In almost all locations (including loading bans & bus lanes), vehicles are permitted to stop to pick up or set down passengers. This is usually limited to 2 minutes except where the person dropping off/picking up needs longer i.e. elderly, suffering some form of disability, carrying heavy luggage or shopping etc. In these circumstances the vehicle may wait for as long as is necessary. The appellant must provide evidence in support of this claim.... There is no exemption for picking up/setting down on footway, at bus stops, pedestrian or school crossings, zigzag markings or waiting for passengers to visit a shop or emerge from buildings e.g. taxi or minicab driver waiting for passenger visiting an ATM.
This does not mention anything about disabled *non-resident* bays not being able to be used as an 'alighting point'. Therefore, I ask, what kind of evidence is suitable for me to prove that I was picking this elderly person up?
2.) As you may've already noticed, on the PCN, there is a 0-minute difference between Observation start time, and time of contravention. According to newhamparkingpolicyproceedures.pdf (a simple google search will provide you with this document), it states in Appendix C that the observation time for code 40 is 2 minutes. Clearly, this wasn't followed and abides by '4.4 - Observation Policy' in the same document. Also, in the cancellation document on page 5/30, it states:
CEO Error - No/Incorrect Observation
The CEO failed to observe the vehicle in accordance with the council’s observation policy or failed to record the first time seen.
This option should be used where the CEO has failed to observe the vehicle in accordance with the council’s observation policy or failed to record the first time seen. One of the following example’s may apply; A) It is a contravention where five minutes observation should have been carried out but the CEO only records 3 minutes. B) CEO fails to record the first time seen. C) CEO fails to record the time he/she entered the street.
The question is, do I have a valid case and if so, please advise me on how best to word it by either 1.) or 2.) to win the appeal at the informal stage. Will they just say some BS like 'observation policy is not mandated by civil law' even though the council self-admits in their own documents that it should be followed or...?
P.S: I activated a 15 minute Free Parking Allocation via MiPermit which was due to start at 13:37 however it is unclear whether this FPA is able to be used on 'communal' Disabled Badge Holder bays with a time limit, and fixed hours of operation as it is not clearly prohibited nor is it clearly allowed on the Newham Council website. Maybe this is the reason the CEO tried to blag it in order to get his bonus for the week.
Thanks in advance!