Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: HoundDog on August 03, 2024, 04:47:24 pm

Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: DWMB2 on September 09, 2024, 10:33:29 pm
They don't fancy their chances, so have withdrawn now to save themselves having to pay the POPLA fee. Yes, it means you've won! Good result  :)
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on September 09, 2024, 10:03:23 pm
I received the following email from POPLA today which I presume means that we have won!

"The operator has contacted us and told us that they have withdrawn your appeal.

If you have already paid your parking charge, this is the reason your appeal will have been withdrawn. Unfortunately, you cannot pay your parking charge and appeal, which means that POPLA’s involvement in your appeal has ended. You will not be able to request a refund of the amount paid in order to resubmit your appeal to us.

If you have not paid your parking charge, the operator has reviewed your appeal and chosen to cancel the parking charge. As the operator has withdrawn your appeal, POPLA’s involvement has now ended and you do not need to take any further action.

Kind regards

POPLA Team"
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: DWMB2 on August 21, 2024, 09:25:10 pm
In due course, PPS will respond with an 'evidence pack' - come back to us when they do, as you will be given the opportunity to respond to it.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 21, 2024, 09:18:06 pm
Just "for the record" - I have just submitted my appeal to POPLA.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 18, 2024, 09:44:18 pm
Thankyou - I will use that
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: b789 on August 18, 2024, 09:10:43 pm
You could try this:

Quote
No evidence of landholder authority

The operator is also put to strict proof, by means of contemporaneous and unredacted evidence, of a chain of authority flowing from the landholder of the "relevant land" to the operator. It is not accepted that the operator has adhered to the landholder's definitions, exemptions, grace period, hours of operation, etc. and any instructions to cancel charges due to complaints. There is no evidence that the freeholder authorises this operator to issue parking charges or what the land enforcement boundary and start/expiry dates are, nor whether this operator has standing to enforce such charges in their own name rather than a bare licence to act as an agent ‘on behalf of’ the landowner.

The operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice. As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the “relevant land” then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only). Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules.

A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement. Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does
not apply.

Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and, of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement). Paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

(a) the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
(b) any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
(c) any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
(d) who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
(e) the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 18, 2024, 08:37:56 pm
Thank you, I will put it in a PDF and upload that.

Based on your comment, does the following paragraph make sense to add?

Quote
4 No evidence of landowner authority

PPS have issued their invoice to me assuming consent from the landowner, but have provided no evidence that the landowner has provided that consent. It is assumed that PPS are themselves not the landowner and it is unclear that they have any authority to issue an invoice on behalf of the landowner.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: b789 on August 18, 2024, 04:48:44 pm
I don't know what a POPLA appeal form looks like - so am just logging on to it to see. I presume I'll be able to back out of it. Broadly my intention is to submit the same appeal provided to me previously, maybe making small adjustments to counter what PPS responded with, if appropriate.

There is no "form". It is a webform but you don't use that. Put your POPLA appeal as a PDF which you can upload.

The above appeal is fine. You can add other things such as No landowner authority to issue contracts in their own name. Make them provide a copy of a valid and current contract that states precisely what they can and can't do.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 18, 2024, 03:55:47 pm
This is what I intend to submit to POPLA as my grounds for appeal - effectively it is what DWMB2 provided me with for the PPS appeal.

Quote
1. No keeper liability - failure to comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA)

The driver has not been identified and this invoice has been issued to me as the vehicle keeper. The vehicle has been photographed in "Matisse Street". The invoice has been issued as a charge for parking in "Holloway Street, Hounslow". There is no evidence provided that the vehicle at any stage entered Holloway Street, much less parked there. The invoice has therefore been issued incorrectly as the relevant land required under paragraph 9(2)(a) of PoFA has not been correctly identified and therefore, as the registered keeper, I cannot be held liable. Maps attached (one from Ordnance Survey and one from Google Maps) highlight the location where PPS show the vehicle, on Matisse Street.

2. The driver was not afforded a sufficient consideration period

It is well-established in contract law that a party cannot be bound by contract terms with which he has had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted. This is reinforced by 5.1. of the Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice, which deals with appropriate consideration periods. The pictures taken by the PPS operative of the vehicle cover a period of ~1 minute, a time that is clearly insufficient to properly read the terms of the alleged contract.

3. The signage is incapable of forming a valid contract between PPS and the driver

The signage at the site states "NO PARKING AT ANY TIME", and "strictly no parking, waiting or loading at any time". These instructions are clearly forbidding, and make no offer to the driver to park on certain terms. On the contrary, they forbid any parking or waiting. If there is no offer to park on certain terms, there can be no contract, meaning no charge can be due.

(https://i.ibb.co/hDTf2m6/Ordnance-Survey.jpg) (https://ibb.co/86QcP7C)
(https://i.ibb.co/WvsWD2s/Google-Maps.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7tbJg1b)
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 18, 2024, 03:32:00 pm
I don't know what a POPLA appeal form looks like - so am just logging on to it to see. I presume I'll be able to back out of it. Broadly my intention is to submit the same appeal provided to me previously, maybe making small adjustments to counter what PPS responded with, if appropriate.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 13, 2024, 07:00:56 pm
Is there any reason it would be any different to the appeal already submitted to, and rejected by, PPS? (as drafted by DWMB2)
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: b789 on August 13, 2024, 06:03:38 pm
So you have 33 days from today to submit your POPLA appeal. Put together what you intend to say and show us before sending it for a critique.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 13, 2024, 05:44:37 pm
As expected (though slightly quicker than I expected), PPS have rejected the appeal.

(https://i.ibb.co/hFkTsp2/PPS-7C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gZGcyst)
(https://i.ibb.co/CsXzHMd/PPS-8C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8cD7fv)
file and image uploader (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: b789 on August 12, 2024, 11:39:17 am
It doesn’t matter if POPLA agree or not. You will see that when the operator provides its response, they will include a map (Google) that has been doctored.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 12, 2024, 07:30:04 am
Thanks.

That seems a little worrying to me. It seems that POPLA did not agree that it was Matisse Road and also it sounds like (but I may be wrong here) the vehicle in this case was further on the road than my vehicle was in this case.

For reference, I attach the Google Maps and Ordnance Survey images I added to the letter.

(https://i.ibb.co/hFMNWnH/Ordnance-Survey.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5h938zv)
(https://i.ibb.co/Khdx99d/Google-Maps.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tKgpbbg)
upload images (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: b789 on August 11, 2024, 04:04:56 pm
Here is a POPLA Appeal that was successful for the same location:

Quote
Successful POPLA appeal against Private Parking Solution (London) Ltd.  Matisse Road / Holloway Street Hounslow.

Decision: Successful
Assessor Name: Stuart Lumsden

Assessor summary of operator case

The operator has issued the parking charge notice (PCN) due to parking in a no parking area.

Assessor summary of your case

The appellant has raised the following points from their grounds of appeal:

• They say they were dropping their daughter off at a party on the day of the breach.

• They say their daughter has a disability which limits their mobility and as such, they parked as close to ‘Flip Out’ as possible.

• They say they stopped on Matisse Road to drop off their daughter and wife and waited for less than 5 minutes for their wife to return before leaving.

• They say they didn’t realise they were on private land and saw no signs.

• They say no contract can be formed as no parking or waiting is permitted.

• They say the parking operator has not complied with 13.1 of the BPA Code of Pracitce.

• They say they did not stop on Holloway Road, but Matisse Road, which is not private land.

• They say they stopped forwards of the sign and could not see it as it was too small.

• They add that Matisse Road is a public highway and they did not stop on the operators land.

• They say the signs are too small to be read whilst driving and do not make the boundaries clear as it’s assumed they refer to the parking bays which they did not use.

The appellant has provided the following as evidence to support their appeal:

• Images of the site, the route to the sign and signs on site. The above evidence will be considered in making our determination.

Assessor supporting rational for decision

I find in favour of the appellant and allow this appeal, below I will explain my reasoning.

I acknowledge the appellants grounds of appeal and appreciate they only stopped to drop off their daughter at a party. I acknowledge the images provided to demonstrate their route to the site, the area they stopped and the land in question. I note the appellant parked largely on the road, but partially on the white lines.

I also note the appellant parked next to signs but was unaware of any terms as they claim they didn’t see any, but has commented to advise that the signs are too small upon review of the evidence, the boundaries aren’t clear and what area the signs relate too.

As such, I have reviewed the parking operators evidence pack and it has provided images of signs throughout the site, a site map showing the controlled areas and also the location of the signs. According to the site map the appellant stopped on Holloway Road, not Matisse Road. The appellants evidence shows the entrance to Matisse Road, but I must conclude that they stopped on Holloway Road.

Whilst the road is public land, the land to the side of it is not. The operators site map shows the area they control which includes the white lines, but only part of the white lines. I must agree with the appellant that the signs do not make the boundaries clear. One would assume that the signs refer to the parking bays and not the road or white lines. I accept that there are signs in place which should have been reviewed by the appellant, but the operators site map does not show the area they parked is monitored by them.

As stated above, the operator monitors the side of the road including the white lines, but not all the white lines. It’s down to the operator to demonstrate that the appellant breached the terms and conditions and whilst I accept they stopped partially on the white lines, I cannot conclude that the signs are clear enough to make motorists aware that the white lines are part of the relevant land or that the white lined area the appellant stopped is monitored by the parking operator.

As such, I cannot conclude that the PCN was issued correctly and must allow the appeal. I note the appellant has raised other points relating to the parking charge notice, but as I have allowed the appeal it will have no bearing on the case.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 11, 2024, 03:38:24 pm
Appeal just submitted, electronically, exactly as above (with reference number and reg added) and with screenshots of Google Maps and Ordnance Survey attached.

"Appeal Submission Successful
Thank you for your Online Appeal Submission. Please be advised that we are dealing with your appeal and will contact you again within 14 days regarding the outcome. During this time the PCN is placed on hold and no further action will be taken until we have replied to you. Please contact us if you have not received a reply to your appeal after 14 days. If you would like to make a payment or view our photographic evidence, please visit paypps.co.uk."
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 07, 2024, 07:34:50 am
Thanks, looks great.

I will deal with it as soon as I can - may not be until the weekend (or may be before - depends how work goes).

Really appreciate your support.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: DWMB2 on August 05, 2024, 09:03:16 am
As for the above, one way to counter would be to provide something that might be considered more authoritative than Google Maps.

Hounslow produce a map of the roads in their area: Highways Register Map (https://hounslow.statmap.co.uk/map/Aurora.svc/run?script=%5CAurora%5CFind_your_nearest_Highways_Register.AuroraScript%24&nocache=0c655523-8194-795f-d6bc-a1266393886e&resize=always). Unhelpfully, as it's not an adopted road it's not listed by name. However, the Land Registry's Map Search feature, which uses the Ordnance Survey, does list Matisse Road: Land Registry Map Search (https://search-property-information.service.gov.uk/search/search-by-map/)
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: b789 on August 05, 2024, 12:22:56 am
You can guarantee that they will provide a Google Map satellite photo of the are that has been doctored to change the name of the road. You won’t get to see that map until they submit their own operator evidence to POPLA but you will be a bale to comment on their map.

I may have a copy of their map and the Google actual version. I’ll let you know if I find it.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: DWMB2 on August 04, 2024, 09:29:56 pm
As I said further up, PPS will definitely reject, and there's a fair chance POPLA will too (although the relevant land point might interest them). With that in mind, my personal view would be that you should submit a robust appeal to PPS. Although they will reject, it will show them that you are not a pushover, and that you know your stuff. As a starter for 10, here's what I've drafted up:

Dear sirs,

I have received your notice to keeper (Reference # ________) for vehicle registration mark ____ ___, in which you alleged that the driver of the vehicle is liable to pay a parking charge. I am appealing as the registered keeper. There is no obligation for me to name the driver and I will not be doing so. I am appealing this charge on the following grounds:

1. No keeper liability - failure to comply with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (PoFA)

I note from your correspondence that you claim that you will be able to recover the charge from me, the keeper, using the provisions of Schedule 4 of PoFA. However, you have failed to comply with the strict requirements of the Act. Your notice alleges that the vehicle was parked at "Holloway Street, Hounslow". However, as can be verified from your own photos, the vehicle was not stopped at Holloway Street at any point. The photos show the vehicle in question was actually stopped on Matisse Road, a different road entirely.

As your notice does not correctly specify where the vehicle was, you have failed to specify the relevant land, as required by paragraph 9(2)(a) of PoFA. As a result of this failure, you are unable to recover any unpaid charge from me, the registered keeper.

2. The driver was not afforded a sufficient consideration period

It is well-established in contract law that a party cannot be bound by contract terms with which he has had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted. This is reinforced by 5.1. of the Private Parking Sector Single Code of Practice, which deals with appropriate consideration periods. The pictures taken by the PPS operative of the vehicle cover a period of ~1 minute, a time that is clearly insufficient to properly read the terms of the alleged contract.

3. The signage is incapable of forming a valid contract between PPS and the driver

The signage at the site stats "NO PARKING AT ANY TIME", and "strictly no parking, waiting or loading at any time". These instructions are clearly forbidding, and make no offer to the driver to park on certain terms. On the contrary, they forbid any parking or waiting. If there is no offer to park on certain terms, there can be no contract, meaning no charge can be due.

Each of the reasons above is sufficient grounds to cancel the PCN. I therefore request that you uphold this appeal. If you chose not to do so, you must issue a POPLA code.

Yours,

Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: DWMB2 on August 04, 2024, 04:00:40 pm
It's another point that can be added to your appeal, they have failed to specify the relevant land, and can therefore not have complied with the conditions required under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act (there's a link to it in my Signature at the bottom of this post) to hold you liable as the registered keeper.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 04, 2024, 03:32:25 pm
You're right, it doesn't match. The driver stopped on Matisse Road, and the ticket is for Holloway Street.

I've used the red highlighter in this satellite image to show exactly where the driver stopped.

How does this change how I should respond?

(https://i.ibb.co/mHC31P6/Screenshot-2024-08-04-153034.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q6F4zxr)
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: b789 on August 04, 2024, 11:41:29 am
This location is a well known entrapment zone. Double check the name of the street with what is on Google Maps.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 04, 2024, 07:55:49 am
Thank you very much for your response and offer of assistance for drafting a response. I'm definitely happy to follow the pathway you have outlined.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: DWMB2 on August 03, 2024, 08:11:36 pm
That is certainly one argument you can run - if the signage prohibits parking, how can they claim that the driver hade entered a contract to park for £100?

You can also argue that given the very short period of time of 'parking', that they have failed to provide a sufficient consideration period... A driver needs to be given suitable opportunity to read the contract on offer before deciding whether he accepts it (not that a contract was on offer here, but the argument still stands).

I can help you draft something up but it'll probably be tomorrow evening before I have time, others may beat me to it. There's no rush to submit anything as you're not near the deadline for appeals, so worth waiting for a few opinions before sending anything.

So that you're going into this with your eyes open, PPS will reject whatever appeal you submit, because they can. You then get the opportunity to appeal to POPLA, who won't agree with the 'no contract' argument, but might go for the 'no consideration period' argument. If they reject your appeal (which is very much possible), it'll then be a case of seeing if PPS decide to go to court, at which point you'll have the opportunity to defend the matter.
Title: Re: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 03, 2024, 06:06:24 pm
I'm probably wrong here but .....

The notice prohibits all parking. No Parking at any time. There is no means of paying for parking. Can they therefore issue the driver with a charge for parking there?
As a penalty charge for parking where parking is prohibited, have they got the authority to issue such a penalty charge?
Title: PPS - Parking Charge Notice - Parking in no Parking Area - Hounslow TW3
Post by: HoundDog on August 03, 2024, 04:47:24 pm
The driver is a sameday courier. He was collecting High Street Quarter, Hounslow TW3. It is a modern pedestrianised area. He hadn't been there before and didn't know where he was going. There are multiple entrances and he didn't know which one he wanted. The first one he went to was down Hounslow Street. This led to a large gate, with single file traffic approaching it. He didn't want to block the gate, so pulled up on the left short of it and approached the gate on foot to see if it was the entrance he needed. It wasn't, he returned to my van, did a u-turn and went back the way he came.
His initial thought was he was stationary for maybe 2 minutes - however he received a call from his office as he pulled up at 09:44 and he can see that call lasted 1 min 59 seconds. The ticket was issued to him at 09:48 - so assuming all clocks are accurate, that suggests he was there for a minimum of 4 minutes (which surprises him - he thought it was less).

The photographic evidence from PPS shows him there between 09:47:07 and 09:48:18 (1 minute 11 seconds).

Obviously it's a scam and rip off to charge him £100 (reduced to £60 in 14 days) for "parking" there. However, does he have any choice but to pay it?

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle and the V5C is in my name.

Streetview Location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/tpsi6H8p9thxzw9KA

4 photos attached extracted from the PPS photographic evidence on their website.
(https://i.ibb.co/yhMVrHV/PPS-1C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CJXWfRW)
(https://i.ibb.co/DV9rWTX/PPS-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gjS49h1)
(https://i.ibb.co/34t2P9r/PPS-3c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Dz3hjHV)
(https://i.ibb.co/hyjZBwC/PPS-2c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y3Mycwb)

Images of the Parking Charge Notice:
(https://i.ibb.co/gg298PP/PPS-5C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QmgQVCC)
(https://i.ibb.co/BqVGqC0/PPS-6C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NZ6rZyc)