Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: fakenews2024 on August 02, 2024, 06:32:07 pm
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Whether the bays in front and to the rear being improperly marked and signed is a question. But the fact remains that if the restricted parking times are correct, then it follows that both ahead and behind him the OP should have seen single yellow lines. As regards ahead a single yellow line at least 20m long.
This could not have been missed had it been there.
But it wasn't.
You've lost the plot with this but I've now lost the will to live...
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Whether the bays in front and to the rear being improperly marked and signed is a question. But the fact remains that if the restricted parking times are correct, then it follows that both ahead and behind him the OP should have seen single yellow lines. As regards ahead a single yellow line at least 20m long.
This could not have been missed had it been there.
But it wasn't.
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I think my point has been misunderstood. Herron and Parking Appeals Ltd put paid to 'invalidating' CPZs.
The parking bays are improperly signed and marked. The TSM simply gives a plainer English expression with examples of the definition of a CPZ.
The OP's defence is that they did not see the line, consulted the traffic sign in the parking space and paid.
Had this sign been formatted as required and had the bay been marked as required then they could argue that this would have brought to their attention that waiting restrictions were in effect in the area.
But if the authority wants to have free waiting in the bay during the CPZ then it can.
@stamfordman, IMO this is incorrect. The definition of a type (a) CPZ is clear. I wonder what source document was used in this post because section 12.4 doesn't exist in the 2019 TSM Chapter 3. Regulatory Signs.
Sorry it's me who got this wrong and the OP is right - it is section 14.1.6 in the current manual.
(https://i.ibb.co/zbwsx1X/Screenshot-2024-08-07-at-18-10-11.png)
But the OP here didn't see the yellow line and just thought was in a pay bay so I can't see you have a point here.
If the pay bay had a yellow line and a no waiting plate for the 1 hour before and 1 hour after the pay times this would indeed bring the bay into the same hours as the CPZ but while this may serve to alert to a wider restriction it doesn't mean much to someone paying to park.
There's also the point that the guidance says 'apart from meter bays' which this is - it's not a shared use bay (although the other smaller bay on the other side of the small yellow is shared use but is the same times as the CPZ).
I can't work out the logic of the guidance - a signed bay is a signed bay and I don't think we've ever seen one co-signed with CPZ waiting where longer - that's mainly because authorities rarely use different times for bays in resident zones (but do mix bays for different purposes such as taxis - but that is different). Barnet is one of the few I've seen that has some shorter res bays than CPZ but I think they are errors.
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I think my point has been misunderstood. Herron and Parking Appeals Ltd put paid to 'invalidating' CPZs.
The parking bays are improperly signed and marked. The TSM simply gives a plainer English expression with examples of the definition of a CPZ.
The OP's defence is that they did not see the line, consulted the traffic sign in the parking space and paid.
Had this sign been formatted as required and had the bay been marked as required then they could argue that this would have brought to their attention that waiting restrictions were in effect in the area.
But if the authority wants to have free waiting in the bay during the CPZ then it can.
@stamfordman, IMO this is incorrect. The definition of a type (a) CPZ is clear. I wonder what source document was used in this post because section 12.4 doesn't exist in the 2019 TSM Chapter 3. Regulatory Signs.
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Definition of CPZ:
an area—
(i)
in which every part of every road is subject to a prohibition indicated by single or double yellow lines or single or double yellow kerb markings (except where parking spaces have been provided, where entrance to or exit from the road is made, where there is a prohibition or restriction on waiting, stopping, loading or unloading indicated by a different sign or where there is a crossing)
But here the parking spaces are not subject to restrictions during the times I've quoted, they are unrestricted lengths of highway.
IMO, you cannot have these within a CPZ and these bays should have single yellow lines(this is what your Traffic Signs Manual is referring to) with these 'no waiting signs' placed above the 'P' parking signs. (TSM Chapter 3, 14.2.6 refers..'where the parking bays operate for a shorter period than the CPZ[as here] the [upright traffic] signs should indicate both the parking controls and the waiting restrictions....').
I understand you are trying to disqualify the CPZ based on the bay signs? Even though the contravention is a yellow line.
The traffic signs manual is just OTT IMO. The times in the parking bay signs can be what the authority wants and there is no need for combined parking/waiting as the bays are entirely independent of the yellow lines and zone entry signs. Also the manual distinguishes between P&D bays and others and the guidance doesn't apply to P&D only, which is the bay in question here but I think this is a red herring.
IMO where times are shorter in bays than the CPZ it's usually a mistake where the authority has changed the CPZ but forgot to do the bays. Why would they want to allow a free for all in permit bays within the CPZ times?
But if the authority wants to have free waiting in the bay during the CPZ then it can. In any case here we only have some free parking in a pay bay.
It's section 12.4 we are talking about.
(https://i.ibb.co/DCSsrXg/Screenshot-2024-08-07-at-10-13-11.png)
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Definition of CPZ:
an area—
(i)
in which every part of every road is subject to a prohibition indicated by single or double yellow lines or single or double yellow kerb markings (except where parking spaces have been provided, where entrance to or exit from the road is made, where there is a prohibition or restriction on waiting, stopping, loading or unloading indicated by a different sign or where there is a crossing)
But here the parking spaces are not subject to restrictions during the times I've quoted, they are unrestricted lengths of highway.
IMO, you cannot have these within a CPZ and these bays should have single yellow lines(this is what your Traffic Signs Manual is referring to) with these 'no waiting signs' placed above the 'P' parking signs. (TSM Chapter 3, 14.2.6 refers..'where the parking bays operate for a shorter period than the CPZ[as here] the [upright traffic] signs should indicate both the parking controls and the waiting restrictions....').
Have you paid?
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Thanks a lot for your help and for clarifying the rules!
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Thank you for the clarifications. It seems like a minefield - clearly the councils are not incentivised on making this simple. I wonder why we don't have a parking ombudsman who can keep the councils in control!
CPZs are simplified parking/waiting zones and make sense in urban areas where councils need to control all kerbsides.
There is copious legislation and guidance on regulating traffic, and there is recourse to a tribunal for all decriminalised parking/moving traffic contraventions.
There is a Local Government & Social Care Ombudsman that includes transport in its remit.
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Thank you for the clarifications. It seems like a minefield - clearly the councils are not incentivised on making this simple. I wonder why we don't have a parking ombudsman who can keep the councils in control!
@HCAndersen do you mean the two bays next to the single yellow?
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Have you paid?
If not and for others, what restriction applies in the bay behind you between 8am and 1.30pm on Sundays and for the bay ahead 8-9am Mon-Sat and how are these conveyed?
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It may not be the beginning of the road, it could be half a mile away or more. The idea is to look at all signs that you pass and then try to remember the signs as you go, not easy if you are crossing London and then fancy stopping on an inviting single yellow. You are much less likely to be caught out in a residents bay and in a pure pay only bay the penalty level is lower £80 instead of £130 in barnet for example.
If others also learn from this your penalty will not have been in vain.
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In most cases councils put in CPZs to unify parking in a zone and often the bay times are the same as the CPZ times so if you are in a zone a big clue is the bay times as to when the single yellows are controlled. Councils do not want to deploy CEOs into zones for different times.
While you can't assume totally, if you see say resident bays controlled 8.30am-6.30pm you can be pretty confident a nearby yellow is OK after 6.30pm unless it has its own timeplate with different timing.
One bone of contention is that zones can get too big to be sensibly controlled by entry signs passed some way back and that can be an appeal factor.
Councils should have maps on their websites showing zones and times.
As always, checking before setting off is wise.
One thing - there are some CPZs with no parking bays and just controlled yellows. These may not be included in CPZ maps (yes I'm looking at you, Redbridge).
Another instructive point - where you parked was right by a boundary between two zones - the other zone is controlled for just one hour a day to deter commuters - Barnet is very fond of these as obviously they only need patrolling for one hour a day but still do a good job for residents.
(https://i.ibb.co/dgd4Xcg/Screenshot-2024-08-05-at-22-24-24.png)
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The question is - is The Ridgway in a CPZ ? If it is then the unsigned single yellow line times will be on the CPZ entry signs.
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I was just going through the manual, and came across point 14.1.6 below
"Where the parking bays operate for a shorter period than the
CPZ (e.g. the CPZ operates from 8 am to 6 pm, and the parking bays from 10 am to 4 pm), the
upright sign should indicate both the parking controls and the waiting restrictions, together with
any loading prohibition. This is because the waiting restrictions are different from those shown
on the entry sign, i.e. they do not apply when the parking bay is operational. The sign also
ensures that drivers are aware of all the restrictions."
If I understand this correctly, does it not mean that the sign on the parking restriction which runs from 9am, should also indicate the waiting restrictions of the CPZ (starting from 8am) on it? It probably doesn't change the PCN appeal decision and in any case I have paid the fine now, so it's more of an academic question at this point.
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Thank you, that is very helpful and much clearer regarding a CPZ. Also thank you for the link, it will be good bedtime reading :)
And one last question on this - if I want to park on a yellow line where there is no yellow board, then is the only option to go back to the beginning of the road to look for the large sign at the entrance of the road for the CPZ?
To give an example from the local area, the adjoining road (The Ridgeway) has several yellow lines without any restriction signage (one location shown on google map link below). How would I know what the parking restriction for that line is?
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Hodford+Rd,+London/@51.5707922,-0.1991731,3a,75y,27.11h,83.14t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sznjUEVG4UVuW_bKE-nAiSA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DznjUEVG4UVuW_bKE-nAiSA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D27.114677125094495%26pitch%3D6.855368438480127%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192!4m7!3m6!1s0x4876109ae1114399:0x6e271fa9ffb5456b!8m2!3d51.5690749!4d-0.198951!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F1tdx_cgs?coh=205410&entry=ttu
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Yes if Mr M is pessimistic the discount is probably best but it's an annoying one.
I can see you are still confused about yellow lines and CPZs.
Obviously double yellows are no waiting 24/7.
Single yellows are either controlled by yellow timeplates with a roundel:
(https://i.ibb.co/yYF7KMR/Screenshot-2024-08-05-at-19-48-17.png)
Or by zone entry sign signs in a CPZ like this one in the zone you were in:
(https://i.ibb.co/bXV6gSB/Screenshot-2024-08-05-at-19-51-15.png)
The white signs in parking bays are nothing to do with yellows lines but bays can have combined white/yellow restrictions where parking is prohibited at certain times such as during rush hours.
Confusingly, yellow lines in CPZs can have their own timeplate if the council wants to make the waiting restriction there different to the CPZ - they sometimes do this at the start of side roads near to busy roads.
If you want to read up on this the Traffic Signs Manual chapter 3 is your friend:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5c78f895e5274a0ebfec719b/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf
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Thank you both for your help on this topic - really appreciate it!
It is indeed correct that I did not see the line (which I admit is my mistake) and paid for parking as per the board closest to the car. Having read the replies I will swallow my ego and pay the fine given the low probability of winning and the ability to pay the lower rate till tonight.
As a separate point, it has also helped me realise that I did not know the rules correctly which I suppose is the silver lining in this whole situation. I did want to check one more thing to ensure I fully understand the rules. The Barnet council on the website says the following regarding CPZs:
"Yellow lines prohibit waiting either:
- on the days and hours shown on nearby signs
- if there are no signs, on the days and hours shown on the large signs at the entry points to a CPZ
- at all times for double yellow lines"
In this instance given that there are 2 parking signs near the yellow lines on either side, do these signs not count as 'nearby signs' mentioned in bullet 1 above? And if it does, then how are drivers meant to understand which of the 2 signs is the correct restriction for the CPZ?
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Agree with you but is it substantially compliant is the question and you only find the answer by ploughing on. It is the absolute right of the OP to do that as it is his money.
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Well, missing this small and somewhat faded yellow line is the point as OP thought was in a pay bay and paid. It was only on getting the PCN that the contravention became clear, if I'm reading this right.
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I think I might struggle with this PCN with all but the most generous of adjudicators.
The car is parked within 3 different restrictions, a pay only bay, a shared use pay and residents bay and a single yellow line. The sign for the CPZ entry is in Hodford Rd about 20m from the car and the OP has already shown in his informal challenge, which an adjudicator will see if the case gets that far, that the OP doesbn't know how the rules work (he is far from alone in this).
I can't predict the outcome and do win against the odds sometimes but I just feel a bit pessimistic about this one.
If the car is rented or leased it might we worth going on as the transfer of liability is often messed up by councils.
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I've re-visited the site and taken a few photographs of the single yellow line in questions
The 1st photo shows the length of the single yellow line
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FmE9wdrzIgnyneI1sKPXAi0Spwg0JoIi/view?usp=drive_link
The next two show the parking bays on either side
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V9LSI9WYq8MbTJyRYfj4gJJtMWOhRgG1/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HgK1iGyjBztS77MfYtu0nGYk22Zvk86z/view?usp=drive_link
They look pretty faded on both sides - if someone was to park right over the yellow line like in my case, then it could be mistaken for one continuous parking bay.
I also emailed mrmustard - thank you for the tip.
I have decided to wait for the NTO and appeal - it just feels like the right thing to do.
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Thanks for your help!
In this case, it was a genuine case of not seeing the lines and paying for what I thought was applicable rather than trying to dodge the fare. Which makes the fine even more annoying.
Will wait to hear from others over this weekend before taking a call on whether to pay the fine at the reduced rate.
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From this case below I recommend emailing My Mustard aka Mr Dishman who is Barnet's bête noire regarding your case plus scope for the CPZ map etc he won this case on.
mrmustard@zoho.com
2230112354
Decision Date 29 Mar 2023
Hodford Road
Parked restricted street during prescribed hours
Mr Dishman attended.
The allegation is that the vehicle was parked in a restricted street in a controlled parking zone.
Mr Dishman asserted that the diagrams provided by the local authority do not properly explain the extent of this particular controlled parking zone; the photographs of the signs provided by the local authority are out of date; and the local authority did not fulfil their duty by considering the appellant’s formal representations.
I am persuaded that the diagram evidence provided by the local authority is vague and uncertain.
Regulation 5(2) of the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007 states, “Where representations are made under Regulation 4 and served it shall be the duty of the enforcement authority to consider the representations and serve the person making the representations with their decision within 56 days beginning with the date on which the representations were served.”
Mr Dishman had cited a case 2220227611 in his formal representations. The local authority replied that it had no bearing on the case. I am persuaded therefore that they had not considered the representations. It was relevant to the case, no binding but relevant and persuasive.
I will therefore allow the appeal.
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These are the key pics which show you firmly over the line with no wiggle room that you were mostly in a bay. But the line isn't freshly marked and being short wasn't obvious to you as you said so it may be worth going on with this as this is a silly line that is only there because it has to be there if there is even a small gap between bays.
Another factor is how well marked the bays are now - they look OK on Google maps but from 2 years ago.
Given you paid to park Barnet could have used discretion here.
See what others say.
(https://i.ibb.co/4dq93fx/Council-pic-3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/fHCqBsk/Council-pic-4.jpg)
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Thanks for clarifying - definitely saved me some future tickets!
I have posted the pics below.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JnI1vIQDM89V-V2PYukVJb8Gi8idIH-j/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1H5FrQXRpov4PsNoZTBA3HMXc4L2aetCk/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FNfcDOSPoleELKdyWTATrl4Px362XDqm/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qM6yx-jYyYw1QnlmY2jJxB24EUb-hDbF/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fIZeOLu_U-diocdsOP_WodosbaxO1WX8/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R02MI4I3wp2ypa7Dz4C1o5yzIRo2ssqj/view?usp=drive_link
Please let me know what you think.
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Yes post the council's pics so we can see if it's a reasonable contravention for the layout.
CPZs - controlled parking zones - cover almost all inner London and much of outer and many other city areas. In a CPZ all kerbside space is controlled either by parking bays or yellow lines and the single yellows are controlled by zone entry signs unless overridden by a line timeplate for a particular line for different times to the CPZ.
In other words if you see a single yellow line without a timeplate you are probably in a CPZ.
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Thanks for the quick reply.
I didn't even know that there are separate signs at the entrance of the road! I always thought that the yellow line restrictions were determined by the restrictions on the adjacent parking bays.
Do you want me to post the pictures from the council?
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As Barnet says it's a controlled parking zone where all single yellows are controlled by entry signs as per the one right by there and this is nothing to do with the parking bays:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Hodford+Rd,+London/@51.5704198,-0.1977234,3a,15.2y,26.15h,91.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5AAS1t65IpkKxtet8scFnA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D5AAS1t65IpkKxtet8scFnA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.share%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26yaw%3D26.151403818914634%26pitch%3D-1.9709455532961044%26thumbfov%3D90!7i16384!8i8192!4m7!3m6!1s0x4876109ae1114399:0x6e271fa9ffb5456b!8m2!3d51.5690749!4d-0.198951!10e5!16s%2Fg%2F1tdx_cgs?coh=205410&entry=ttu
Seems mean though given the short line - let's see the council's pics in full.
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I received a PCN on 28/06 (Friday) for parking in a single yellow line during restricted hours.
I have attached a photo of the location of the PCN on google maps (https://maps.app.goo.gl/PesfwLY4B5DAknty9). As can be seen from the image, the road has 2 different parking bays separated by a short single yellow line. The parking restrictions on the 2 bays are different from each other - on Fridays one of them is from 9am to 5:30pm and the other is from 8am to 6:30pm.
I had parked over the yellow line, with one wheel in each parking bay as can be seen from the photo on the PCN. Unfortunately I did not realise that there was a yellow line at all, so I paid for the parking as if I had parked in a bay (photo also attached). What is not visible in the PCN photos but can be inferred from the location of the car across single yellow line is that the sign for the parking restriction from 9am to 5:30pm was right next to the bonnet of the car, whereas the sign for the restriction from 8am to 6:30pm was further back.
The PCN was served at 8:40am, which is the restriction for the yellow line as per the council. The sign for this restriction is to the right of the yellow line. However if we take the parking sign to the left of the yellow line, the restriction should only start from 9am. This sign is also much closer to the yellow line compared to the other parking sign which has the restrictions starting from 8am.
I challenged the PCN based on the fact that the parking sign next to the car should have been applicable and that the PCN was issued incorrectly due to the fact that it was issued before the parking restrictions started from 9am as per that sign. However, this was turned down by the council. In my challenge I also mentioned paying for parking from 9 to 9:15am (owing from the fact that I did not see the the yellow line at all) - on second thoughts I don't think this is relevant and probably confused the council as can be seen from their reply.
However given that the PCN was served at 8:40 am, I hope that I have still have a strong case. I have attached both my challenge and the council's reply.
I find this PCN extremely unfair as firstly the yellow line is extremely short and is easy to miss. And when we look at the yellow line, it is not clear which of the 2 parking restrictions should apply. And depending on where the car is parked, one can very easily only see one of the parking restrictions (like me).
My current plan is to wait for the NTO and challenge it. However the time period for the reduced payment ends on 05.08, so I wanted to get some advice on whether that is a sensible plan and whether I have any chances of winning the challenge.
I would be grateful for any help and advice from this forum.
PCN: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y8kz7_ibgcsN9Q9IhCTXmUOFsa_6ZHxl/view?usp=drive_link
PCN challenge: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1u5F-s_7v42IUCKUfE9IjL5KmyQHDOEnr/view?usp=drive_link
PCN challenge evidence 1: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wGmRiFMmPoRowXvSyNDxw0_UOnOLSLKi/view?usp=drive_link
PCN challenge evidence 2: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1M0iRiwAxB8_TxgpFLqOd0rQpdEfMhz2e/view?usp=drive_link
Council reply:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y99NkS5NjpSUt9Hh4i_u0t6Qz0GzATmn/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0WYt5KyvW1YH0P1E8ZsVGVGdtqq_zfR/view?usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-Qtnzs4vu7J8Lehbc_lptD1pcLkeyLq/view?usp=drive_link
Also re-confirming the location on google maps
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PesfwLY4B5DAknty9