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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: H-M3 on August 01, 2024, 10:03:50 pm

Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on November 08, 2024, 11:39:35 am
My pleasure.  ;D
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on November 08, 2024, 01:41:21 am
I wanted to say a very BIG THANKS to Hippocrates for his support and attending to this for me. Both cases positive outcome, thanks to all for your support too!
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on November 05, 2024, 12:26:59 am
The other one won too.

The amount of the penalty charge for moving traffic contraventions in London Borough of Redbridge is £130.

It is not open to the Enforcement Authority to seek a sum different from the amount prescribed.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on November 04, 2024, 06:51:33 pm
One cancelled due to no PCN adduced. Waiting for the other decision re the £110 subceeded amount. As fate would have it, I had the same adjudicator for the 2.30 hearing too and they demanded £130 in that case.

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/yellow-box-junction-pcn-3025/msg43944/#msg43944

We also had an interesting chat about practice direction re 14 days to submit a skeleton argument and the ethos of the Tribunal and representatives.......... ???

I half-expected for these two cases to be rescheduled because I was later than usual in submitting my evidence due to "case management issues" re other cases last week. I had some busman's holiday as I had two cases with 22 PCNs to deal with last week which were rescheduled without my knowledge.  I won one of them but really, when one has asked quite properly for cases to be consolidated and gone through the necessary hoops, one expects something better than this. (Lewisham cases)

Anyway, back to the cases in hand. He was not with me re the PCN locus nor the limitation to one ground. But, we will see. I did spell out the NOR is an important document and it is not good enough for a council to respond to the issue in their evidence pack. And I mentioned a John Lane decision re similar issues re pictures.

Anyway, Mt Everest conquered. A.N.Other adjudicator must have heard it all.  ;D
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on November 03, 2024, 08:30:36 pm
@cp8759 Thanks for the other case sent to me today.  :)

2240333189.

Tomorrow is the hearing : I will do my best and incorporate the collegiate views.  ;) Now I wear the T shirt, I may well be recognised. Literally, not metaphorically. Plus Lotus Esprit necklace in The Spy Who Loved Me.
please don't wear Ursula's Anderss's bikini  :-\

As the Doctor said: No.  :D
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: mickR on November 03, 2024, 08:24:45 pm
@cp8759 Thanks for the other case sent to me today.  :)

2240333189.

Tomorrow is the hearing : I will do my best and incorporate the collegiate views.  ;) Now I wear the T shirt, I may well be recognised. Literally, not metaphorically. Plus Lotus Esprit necklace in The Spy Who Loved Me.
please don't wear Ursula's Anderss's bikini  :-\
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on November 03, 2024, 07:18:18 pm
@cp8759 Thanks for the other case sent to me today.  :)

2240333189.

Tomorrow is the hearing : I will do my best and incorporate the collegiate views.  ;) Now I wear the T shirt, I may well be recognised.* Literally, not metaphorically. Plus Lotus Esprit necklace - the car as in The Spy Who Loved Me. The adj. has already seen it once and allowed the appeal. ;) Bus lane last week. May be that what was why I was not mentioned? **

*
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/how-do-we-get-more-people-to-fight-their-pcns/msg41917/#msg41917

**

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/motorcycle-in-bus-lane-confusing-sign/msg43158/#msg43158

What fun this is.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on November 02, 2024, 04:12:46 pm
@cp8759 Thanks for the other case sent to me today.  :)
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on September 13, 2024, 10:03:04 am
Well said. Appeal now filed.

@cp8759 As they are asking for less than the legal amount, I decided not to use the penalty exceeded the amount ground!  ::)
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: cp8759 on September 12, 2024, 10:57:04 pm
A few posts that added no value have been removed, if you're a newbie seeking help be constructive in your comments and take the advice that is given gracefully. If someone tells you to create your own thread, the appropriate response if you've already made one is to provide a link rather than get all snotty about it.

Please be nice to each other, we're all on the same team here.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on September 07, 2024, 12:25:09 pm
Penalty Charge Notice: AF98910562
Vehicle registration: RX64VTG
Contravention date: Saturday, 20 Jul 2024 22:32
Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Street: ILFORD LANE
Location:
Status: Representation Rejected

*****

Penalty Charge Notice: AF98910278
Vehicle registration: RX64VTG
Contravention date: Saturday, 20 Jul 2024 23:26
Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Street: ILFORD LANE
Location:
Status: Representation Rejected

*******
Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on September 07, 2024, 09:50:41 am
Penalty Charge Notice: AF98910562
Vehicle registration: RX64VTG
Contravention date: Saturday, 20 Jul 2024 22:32
Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Street: ILFORD LANE
Location:
Status: Representation Rejected

*****

Penalty Charge Notice: AF98910278
Vehicle registration: RX64VTG
Contravention date: Saturday, 20 Jul 2024 23:26
Contravention: Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited
Street: ILFORD LANE
Location:
Status: Representation Rejected

*******

Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: mickR on September 06, 2024, 10:16:23 pm
Hi, any update on your appeal? I just got one on Ilford Lane!
Please start your own thread.  :)
Hi, in future please check a users profile before making such comments.  :)
members are busy helping people and can't be expected to carry out checks on every new posters comments.
....maybe if you had just mentioned your thread ::)
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on September 06, 2024, 09:10:51 pm
Total failure to consider the locus issue and cases in support.  Up to you.  I am happy to represent. The prices are wrong too! J.S.Bach could have written it. Pure "Invention"!
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on September 06, 2024, 08:47:16 pm
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4mv1ndka3xjxbc8e3c47z/Redbridge-Rejection?rlkey=y38itj9o3xj7ekcjsnqtofm86&dl=0

Sorry not sure if this works?
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on September 06, 2024, 08:19:19 pm
Can’t load without file extension
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on September 06, 2024, 07:17:12 pm
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4mv1ndka3xjxbc8e3c47z/Redbridge-Rejection?rlkey=y38itj9o3xj7ekcjsnqtofm86&dl=0
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on September 06, 2024, 07:15:44 pm
Good Evening.

As I thought, Redbridge have refused and have used a standard template letter. I guess next stage would be Tribunal. I await for the experts.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on September 05, 2024, 01:18:54 pm
PM sent.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: John U.K. on September 05, 2024, 12:35:25 pm
Hi, any update on your appeal? I just got one on Ilford Lane!
Please start your own thread.  :)
That's assuming you want advice. Experience here is that almost all cases of box junctions we need to see the individual videos, so best to start a thread. Keep an eye on this case, of course.

He did start it - yesterday:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-in-box-junction/
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Incandescent on September 05, 2024, 11:39:26 am
Hi, any update on your appeal? I just got one on Ilford Lane!
Please start your own thread.  :)
That's assuming you want advice. Experience here is that almost all cases of box junctions we need to see the individual videos, so best to start a thread. Keep an eye on this case, of course.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Hippocrates on September 05, 2024, 11:15:13 am
Hi, any update on your appeal? I just got one on Ilford Lane!
Please start your own thread.  :)
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on September 04, 2024, 09:39:14 pm
Hi, no not yet, will keep this thread posted once I do.
Thanks
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: monz87 on September 04, 2024, 09:26:29 pm
Hi, any update on your appeal? I just got one on Ilford Lane!
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 03, 2024, 06:41:38 pm
Grand! Thanks I will get that drafted and sent.
Thank you
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: MrChips on August 03, 2024, 04:59:33 pm
Very happy with that.

Don't forget you need to submit representations against both PCNs.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: cp8759 on August 03, 2024, 03:54:48 pm
It would strengthen this argument if we knew how many there are along the length of Ilford Lane.

Maybe it strengthens the argument even more if we don't know how many yellow boxes there are.

@H-M3 here's a draft I've come up with:

Dear London Borough of Redbridge,

I challenge liability on the ground that the penalty charge notice does not adequately particularise the alleged wrongdoing. The location of the alleged contravention is given as "Ilford Lane", the name of the road junction is not given. I have looked online and I can see that Ilford Lane is over a mile long and has some 35 junctions, but I cannot find any box junction markings so it seems the box markings have been painted since the Google Street View car last drove down this road.

As the notice does not allow me to understand where it is that the contravention is alleged to have taken place, the notice does not adequately specify the grounds on which you believe the penalty is payable, I refer you to the decision of adjudicator Carl Teper in Saijal Patel v London Borough of Brent (2160240742, 8 August 2016) and adjudicator Andrew Harman in Sandra Grauzyte v London Borough of Redbridge (2230201115, 31 May 2023).

It follows that the notice must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send the representation online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 03, 2024, 03:43:52 pm
It would strengthen this argument if we knew how many there are along the length of Ilford Lane. I normally look at satellite view on Google maps but I think these have been painted on since it was last updated.

From other Redbridge cases I've seen on here, they seem to have been busy recently adding ybjs all over the place, even to junctions with minor side roads.
After these two PCNs I feel even scared to step on that damn road :'( will see if I can pop down one eve after work.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: MrChips on August 03, 2024, 03:07:35 pm
It would strengthen this argument if we knew how many there are along the length of Ilford Lane. I normally look at satellite view on Google maps but I think these have been painted on since it was last updated.

From other Redbridge cases I've seen on here, they seem to have been busy recently adding ybjs all over the place, even to junctions with minor side roads.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 03, 2024, 12:43:55 pm
I've had a look at both videos.  Both show a pretty textbook contravention.

However, I believe we've had some success in the past with Redbridge YBJ PCNs as they always just state the location as a singular street name when in reality it is at the junction of two roads.  Both PCNs are in respect of different box junctions along Ilford Lane, but this road is about 1 mile long and clearly has more than box junction along it (I say clearly as you have been caught in two different ones - they must be newish as they don't feature on Googlemaps yet so I cannot say specifically how many there are).

A PCN is required by law to state the grounds on which the authority believe a penalty charge is payable.  If the location is unclear, there's a reasonable case to be made the PCNs cannot be enforced.

In respect of the first one, the time of contravention is also slightly wrong.  It says 2232 when you entered the box (and stopped) at 2231.
I see your point. They have only specified the road as “Ilford Lane” that road is a long stretch of road with several YBJs I believe. Thanks
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 03, 2024, 12:39:07 pm
I was just reading up and came across case ref 2160240742. What are the experts views, also I feel that the council need to consider the drivers view and not cctv especially at night time. I am still in shock as I am dumbfounded as to how I missed these boxes! Thanks peeps
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 03, 2024, 01:55:29 am
Sorry All, can anyone help with me uploading the PCN. It keeps throwing errors. I can email the pdf to someone. Thanks
Normally you have to use a hosting site as per our instructions for posting that we gave for you to read.
Link works!
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Incandescent on August 03, 2024, 12:42:49 am
Sorry All, can anyone help with me uploading the PCN. It keeps throwing errors. I can email the pdf to someone. Thanks
Normally you have to use a hosting site as per our instructions for posting that we gave for you to read.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 02, 2024, 11:08:08 pm
You'll need to use a third party site. If it's a PDF, Dropbox and Google Drive are both decent options.

If its images, Imgur is free and doesn't require sign up.
Not sure why the link is not working  :-[
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 02, 2024, 10:14:41 pm
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/cqy2dojyxwm1gc3un21et/Ilford-lane.pdf.pdf?rlkey=fmtcjqcrfshxq5ddbm98223z6&dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/cqy2dojyxwm1gc3un21et/Ilford-lane.pdf.pdf?rlkey=fmtcjqcrfshxq5ddbm98223z6&dl=0)
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: DWMB2 on August 02, 2024, 10:03:06 pm
You'll need to use a third party site. If it's a PDF, Dropbox and Google Drive are both decent options.

If its images, Imgur is free and doesn't require sign up.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 02, 2024, 09:51:01 pm
Sorry All, can anyone help with me uploading the PCN. It keeps throwing errors. I can email the pdf to someone. Thanks
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Incandescent on August 02, 2024, 05:18:32 pm
I've just noticed, looking at the YBJ on the video, is that it is correctly placed at the junction. Note that the corners do not go to the kerb, but are positioned exactly at the extrapolation forward, of the side road kerbs to the main road  kerb. This might be of help to the OP on this current thread on this forum, where the YBJ covers more than the junction.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-for-being-in-a-box-junction/msg31561/#msg31561
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: stamfordman on August 02, 2024, 01:19:47 pm
I'm having trouble getting inline videos to display for all - the one above and this one you need to click on to view.

https://imgur.com/3WjfcYU
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 02, 2024, 12:52:09 pm
Thanks All.

I am hoping to challenge this with all your support guys.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: MrChips on August 02, 2024, 12:29:17 pm
I've had a look at both videos.  Both show a pretty textbook contravention.

However, I believe we've had some success in the past with Redbridge YBJ PCNs as they always just state the location as a singular street name when in reality it is at the junction of two roads.  Both PCNs are in respect of different box junctions along Ilford Lane, but this road is about 1 mile long and clearly has more than box junction along it (I say clearly as you have been caught in two different ones - they must be newish as they don't feature on Googlemaps yet so I cannot say specifically how many there are).

A PCN is required by law to state the grounds on which the authority believe a penalty charge is payable.  If the location is unclear, there's a reasonable case to be made the PCNs cannot be enforced.

In respect of the first one, the time of contravention is also slightly wrong.  It says 2232 when you entered the box (and stopped) at 2231.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: stamfordman on August 02, 2024, 11:35:10 am
https://imgur.com/jaBgbHK
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Incandescent on August 02, 2024, 11:28:09 am
YBJs are not signed at all, one must just look out for the road markings. Probably all YBJs in London are CCTV enforced, because it is such a huge earner for councils.
100%!
Not only that, that road is narrow and when there is start stop traffic it’s hard to see further up. If that makes sense?
With YBJs, you've got to "look before you leap", and never motor-on gung-ho fashion when you see a YBJ ahead. If you do get caught in the box with no way out of it, then slow right down and tootle across very slowly, hoping the traffic will move on. If it does you're OK.

If you get more PCNs start threads here, rather than just coughing-up.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 02, 2024, 11:12:48 am
YBJs are not signed at all, one must just look out for the road markings. Probably all YBJs in London are CCTV enforced, because it is such a huge earner for councils.
100%!
Not only that, that road is narrow and when there is start stop traffic it’s hard to see further up. If that makes sense?
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Incandescent on August 02, 2024, 09:07:22 am
YBJs are not signed at all, one must just look out for the road markings. Probably all YBJs in London are CCTV enforced, because it is such a huge earner for councils.
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 02, 2024, 01:53:34 am
Having viewed both videos, it seems clear to me that you seem to know absolutely nothing at all on what you must do when approaching a yellow box junction. The video for the second PCN shows your car entering the box despite there being a stationary vehicle on the other side of the box thus meaning you have no exit from the box at all, and you had to stop in the box. This is a classic example of a yellow box contravention. It is almost the same with the first video.

So am I right ?
Thanks for your response. Tbh the traffic was mad that day and I was not at all aware of the junction boxes. You are probably right my knowledge on these boxes are very limited.
Thanks
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Incandescent on August 02, 2024, 01:28:12 am
Having viewed both videos, it seems clear to me that you seem to know absolutely nothing at all on what you must do when approaching a yellow box junction. The video for the second PCN shows your car entering the box despite there being a stationary vehicle on the other side of the box thus meaning you have no exit from the box at all, and you had to stop in the box. This is a classic example of a yellow box contravention. It is almost the same with the first video.

So am I right ?
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 02, 2024, 12:24:28 am
Sorry as I am a numpty with IT can I send the PCN number and reg for mods to help upload video please.
PCN - AF98910562
PCN - AF98910278
VRM - RX64VTG
www.redbridge.gov.uk/parkingPCN
Title: Re: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: Incandescent on August 01, 2024, 11:51:44 pm
Read this and update your thread accordingly: -

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Its recommended that you don't cough-up until we've had an opportunity to view the videos for the two PCNs and advise you.
Title: Re: 2 in one day, HELP!
Post by: roythebus on August 01, 2024, 11:16:22 pm
It may help if you gave us some more information, where, when, what sort of pcn?
Title: Ilford lane box junction. 31j
Post by: H-M3 on August 01, 2024, 10:03:50 pm
Hi All, hope all is well.
Really gutted as to how I managed to get two pcn in one day on the same stretch of road is beyond me.
Do I have a leg to stand on as I genuinely did not see this.

NB: can any IT wiz please upload the videos for me.

Thanks