Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Jamran on July 28, 2024, 07:44:11 pm
-
Play a game of chicken with Mr Mustard and you will lose.
---------
Case reference 2240509048
I heard this appeal by telephone speaking to the Appellant’s representative Mr Dishman. His case is essentially that the sale of chicken does not amount to an event day and that the signage indicating the presence of an event day was in adequate. The onus is on the Council to prove that the day was an event day in law and that this fact was clearly and correctly indicated.
An event day is defined in the Traffic Management Order provided by the Council as (so far as is relevant to the present case) “any other sporting or non-sporting activity which in the opinion of the Traffic Manager for the London Borough of Newham is likely to benefit from the scheme being in force”. There seems to me to be no evidence from such a person that he/she formed that opinion. In the circumstances I am unable to be satisfied the day in question was an event day within the meaning of the TMO and the Appeal must be allowed on that ground alone.
(It is therefore unnecessary to consider whether the signage in place on the route described by the Appellant was sufficiently clear – something which might well have necessitated an adjournment for the Council and/or the appellant to provide photographic evidence of the particular sign passed and its location.)
-
Thank you. Very promising
-
Case yesterday.
------------
2240495930
10 Dec 2024
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being parked in a permit holder only parking bay in Holland Road at 9.18am on Sunday 9 June 2024 without a valid permit.
I have looked at the CEO's photographs and the Council's site images. These show that Mr Manners' car was parked in a bay which was signed as being for parking by permit holders only during the restricted hours of 9am to 6pm from Mondays to Fridays. Beneath this, a further restriction read "On event days 8am to 9pm". It is not in dispute that there was no valid permit for parking.
The Council's evidence shows that Sunday 9 June 2024 was an Event Day.
Mr Manners appeals because he says that the signage was not clear in Holland Road. He says that he had no way of knowing that this was an Event Day.
The Council relies upon CPZ signs alerting motorists to Event Days. Library images are submitted of CPZ signs which carry an Event Day notice at the foot of the sign alerting motorists to the next such day.
CPZ signs alert motorists to single yellow line parking restrictions. A motorist parking on a single yellow line in a CPZ is expected to check CPZ parking sign restrictions and, in so doing, will be aware of Event Day restrictions. However, a motorist parking in a resident's bay or a shared use bay is subject to the signed restrictions for the bay which may or may not be the same as CPZ restrictions.
The time plate for this bay does not provide motorists with any information about Event Days. It does not refer the motorist to CPZ signs or to a website for details of Event Days. A motorist parking in the bay cannot be expected to know where to find details of Event Days.
The signage is also misleading. The wording "On event days 8am to 9pm" appears directly beneath the Monday to Friday normal restricted hours so that the motorist could easily read the added restriction as meaning event days which are between Monday and Friday.
I therefore find that the signage was not adequate and I allow the appeal for that reason.
-
Checked back, the case I was thinking of was Tower Hamlets not Newham but there are still good arguments in this case.
Just starting the Appeal now, on the following basis:
The representations as made are relied upon.
It is denied that the council have the right to regard the sale of chicken as an event requiring extra parking restrictions.
It is denied that the council have incorporated this right into a traffic order or even that the traffic order mentions event days.
It is denied that zone entry signs had been updated to show the date of 28 July 2024.
It is denied that there is any link between a zone entry sign which sets the times for otherwise unsigned single yellow lines and a bay sign. Nothing on the bay sign informs a driver if it is an event day or not.
-
Emailed you. Thanks
-
Mr M what is the case ref for one you've done.
OP - I would take Mr M up on his offer of course. They have reoffered the discount but you should have confidence this will either be won or not contested.
If it is contested I would like to see the signage issues examined as per the case I posted - both the local sign and the far away event sign - but adjudicators usually accept the most compelling grounds and disregard others and if there is an order issue then that will no doubt take priority.
-
I have just done an event day pcn in a cpz zone. Newham did not have photos of the entry signs except from July 23. The traffic order did not define an event day. Both of these are fatal to the council case. I can be your free representative. I am at the tribunal every week, already got cases listed up to 18 december. For help please email the unredacted notice of rejection to mrmustard@zoho.com
-
Update:
Got letter of rejection through the post today. Not surprised.
Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated
https://share.icloud.com/photos/02daUbmqb_l1aFUp3mGKEvzeA
-
It's OK - I see I posted the rejection.
I would try this but it's almost certain to end up at the tribunal but I would like to see another adjudicator pay attention to these points. At tribunal I would also introduce comparison with say Islington.
----------
I am making representations against the PCN on the grounds that no contravention occurred according to a reasonable understanding of the sign at the parking place, which led me to believe I was parked legally.
The sign says there is 30 mins parking 8am - 6.30pm Mon-Sat and below that on event days this is extended to 9pm. There is no mention that this could apply to Sunday, which is when I parked and if you do mean it to include Sunday the sign must say so.
This was accepted in the grounds in allowed appeal 2240208187, where the adjudicator states:
"The signage is also confusing as the reference to Event Days could easily be read as extended controlled hours where there is an Event Day Mondays to Fridays."
In my initial challenge I assumed the PCN was given for reason of it being an event day, and researched how I could have known - apparently the only such indication was a long distance away on a dual carriageway in my journey from Mile End. This I see is on a controlled parking zone sign.
As the adjudicator in 2240208187 also said regarding a similar alleged contravention:
"CPZ signs alert motorists to single yellow line parking restrictions. A motorist parking on a single yellow line in a CPZ is expected to check CPZ parking sign restrictions and, in so doing, would be aware of Event Day restrictions. However, a motorist parking in a resident's bay is subject to the signed restrictions for the bay which may or may not be the same as CPZ restrictions.
"Critically, the time plate for this permit parking place does not provide motorists with any information about Event Days. It does not refer the motorist to CPZ signs or to a website for details of Event Days. A motorist parking in the bay cannot be expected to know where to find details of Event Days."
This is the position I was in and I feel you have failed in your duty to sign a restriction adequately, and I am also unhappy with your rejection of my informal challenge, which gives no detail as to why you believe a contravention occurred.
So I am putting the above points to you in the hope you will address them and concede that there are grounds to cancel the PCN.
I look forward to your early reply.
-
Sorry
https://share.icloud.com/photos/082-UMrsCNUm6Jvk7o3Zwo4Mg
-
Jamran - the rejection seems to have disappeared please repost it.
-
@stamfordman could you please assist in the appeal? Running out of time I think
I believe you have until 31 October 2024 by 23:59 PM to submit your formal representations online. Otherwise submitted by letter 1st Class recorded delivery on 29 October 2024 by its collection time, from a postbox / post office, by Royal Mail Postie.
Have you uploaded the original PCN and the Informal Challenge you submitted for other's to chime in?[/hr]
[1] Is this the First ever instance OP has parked in Newham in an Event Day relevant Bay? and if NOT, how does OP usually receive notification of an Event Day in Newham?
Yes it is. I am not a resident of the borough.
This must be included as additional ground in your formal rep. Additionally, request a discretionally cancellation since this is your first instance of receiving a PCN for this contravention code, Although, they may disregard it, causing a procedural impropriety.
[/hr]
How would a non-resident of the borough know how to become notified of an Event Day, if upon the entry of the main junction of the road, usually a RPZ / CPZ signage is erected listing the Event day in force, there is no notification or mention of an Event Day in force? Would one drive aimlessly around a non familiar borough searching for signage wasting their limited time one has for their stated reason of visiting the borough? Would one call through to the borough on Sunday asking for assistance or rather search online to be told "The London Borough of Newham rely on information stated on the London Stadium website, which it has no control over and unfortunately this may not always show the full schedule of upcoming events. As a precaution all motorists should check the parking signs displayed at the relevant locations to see if an event is taking place’. The signs in place are updated prior to each event at the stadium" Should Newham desire to enforce an Event Day there must be Event Day in force notice, erected upon signage, that is nearby, adequate, clearly visible and legible, so motorists can be informed as per the duty of the local authority.[/hr]
-
Yes will do - NTO is 1 Oct so will do by Friday.
-
@stamfordman could you please assist in the appeal? Running out of time I think
-
[1] Is this the First ever instance OP has parked in Newham in an Event Day relevant Bay? and if NOT, how does OP usually receive notification of an Event Day in Newham?
Yes it is. I am not a resident of the borough.
-
[1] Is this the First ever instance OP has parked in Newham in an Event Day relevant Bay? and if NOT, how does OP usually receive notification of an Event Day in Newham?
-
OP, IMO you cannot say to the council 'you must set out the wording as per this example' because there's no such requirement. But what you could and I believe should say is that you were confused by the wording used because you read this as meaning that the times 8am-9pm were extended times which applied only to those days specified above i.e. Mon-Sat. You believe such an interpretation was perfectly reasonable. You've attached an example of how another London council words its traffic signs which makes its meaning totally clear.
For others, GSV shows that the wording 'Event days' etc. is word-for-word used on the CPZ signs and again sits below Mon-Sat. I wonder how many people are caught out on SYL on 'event days' which occur on Sundays?
What you suggest is what we are talking about...
You are right that the CPZ entry signs are also deficient and of course they don't control the parking bays, but they are the only link with the bay conditions. The adjudicated case I posted also says this.
-
Ironic that 'Additional controls' is not wording permitted under the regs' variations despite making the restriction clearer!
OP, IMO you cannot say to the council 'you must set out the wording as per this example' because there's no such requirement. But what you could and I believe should say is that you were confused by the wording used because you read this as meaning that the times 8am-9pm were extended times which applied only to those days specified above i.e. Mon-Sat. You believe such an interpretation was perfectly reasonable. You've attached an example of how another London council words its traffic signs which makes its meaning totally clear.
For others, GSV shows that the wording 'Event days' etc. is word-for-word used on the CPZ signs and again sits below Mon-Sat. I wonder how many people are caught out on SYL on 'event days' which occur on Sundays?
-
So your advice is to give up?
As you know cases are won with preparation - can you honestly say Newham's sign conveys information adequately when compared with Islington's?
(https://i.imgur.com/hWNjNR6.png)
-
Agree.
'An adjudicator found..'.
Hence why I refer to the 'adjudicator on the day'.
-
An adjudicator found this sign is not good enough and I agree. If they want to apply event days to Sunday this misleads as it can easily be seen as qualifying Mon-Sat, and the reliance on a CPZ sign alone with no clue at the location about events compounds this.
(https://i.imgur.com/CgM8SOz.png)
-
The regs provide that this form of sign may be varied using a 'permitted expression'.
In this case:
The expressions “Match”, “match”, “Event”, “event”, “Market”, “market”, “Day”, “day”, “On”, “on”, any of those expressions in the plural or the expression “Next” or that expression without a capital letter may be used with any of the expressions permitted by paragraph 1, 2, 3 or 4 as appropriate.
1.—(1) A reference to a time, or to times, of the day may be shown as, or varied to, the following—
(a)a period of time expressed as “7.30 – 9.00 am”, “7 - 9 am”, “7.30 am – 6 pm”, “4 – 7 pm”, “4.00 – 6.30 pm”, “8 pm – 6 am”, “8 pm – 6 am next day” or any other time period and which may include the expression “Midnight”, “M’night”, “Midday” or “Noon” ;
I cannot find any fault with the sign itself.
OP, your choice. IMO, on the evidence so far you do not have a strong case, you would be hoping that the authority could not present evidence to the standard required by the adjudicator on the day that 'event day' notifications were present on the signs you passed.
Alternatively, that they commit a procedural impropriety, again to the standard required by your adjudicator.
-
Additionally, the only CPZ sign was all the way in Bow which could’ve been obscured by a bus or lorry.
Exaggerating does you no favours.
The sign you are talking about is not in Bow at all but Stratford High Street.
I personally know of others; one just around the corner from the incident, in Forest Lane, others in Water Lane, Romford Rd and just to the North of you in Leytonstone Road.
I wasn’t exaggerating. If you had read earlier posts you’d know that on the route I travelled, the only CPZ signage was the one after Bow Flyover.
-
Additionally, the only CPZ sign was all the way in Bow which could’ve been obscured by a bus or lorry.
Exaggerating does you no favours.
The sign you are talking about is not in Bow at all but Stratford High Street.
I personally know of others; one just around the corner from the incident, in Forest Lane, others in Water Lane, Romford Rd and just to the North of you in Leytonstone Road.
I believe the OP came via Stratford High Street where signage is a long way from where parked. But the primary ground here will be the defective signage that does not separate out event day scope.
-
Additionally, the only CPZ sign was all the way in Bow which could’ve been obscured by a bus or lorry.
Exaggerating does you no favours.
The sign you are talking about is not in Bow at all but Stratford High Street.
I personally know of others; one just around the corner from the incident, in Forest Lane, others in Water Lane, Romford Rd and just to the North of you in Leytonstone Road.
-
Nudge me in a few days and I'll draft reps. Did you see the two cases I posted.
Sure will do. Thank you.
Yes I did. Like you said I think my case is stronger especially as it was a Sunday which was outside the usual hours of enforcement. Additionally, the only CPZ sign was all the way in Bow which could’ve been obscured by a bus or lorry. I’m hopeful I’ve got a strong case.
Thank you for finding those
-
Nudge me in a few days and I'll draft reps. Did you see the two cases I posted.
-
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0ffQN-I143W2q-9cLZ03r5gpA
-
Thanks. I can only see 2 photos of the NTO.
Apologies: that'll teach me to read the 'small print'!
@Jamran - PCN for HCA, please.
-
Thanks. I can only see 2 photos of the NTO.
-
OP, the PCN isn't accessible via the link in post #1.
@H C Anderson
Link to PCN is in post Reply#19
-
OP, the PCN isn't accessible via the link in post #1.
-
I've found two cases, one positive, one negative, but I think the case against the defective signage can be won even with a tough adjudicator if it's spelt out that the wording is on one plate and an example of good practice from other councils is provided (eg Islington).
Both of these cases concern Newham event days.
--------
2240208187
Mr Ali was scheduled for a personal hearing today but he has not attended and so the appeal is being decided on the evidence presented.
This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being parked in a permit holder only parking place during controlled hours without a valid permit. The car was parked on Saturday 11 February 2023.
The signage relied upon by the Council states permit holder only parking during the restricted hours of 8am to 6.30pm Mondays to Fridays. Beneath this are Event Day restrictions with extended controlled hours. It is not in dispute that there was no valid permit for parking.
The Council's evidence is that Saturday 11 February 2023 was an Event Day.
Mr Ali says that the signage was not clear and that he had no way of knowing that this was an Event Day.
The Council relies upon CPZ signs alerting motorists to Event Days. Library images are submitted of CPZ signs which carry an Event Day notice at the foot of the sign alerting motorists to the next such day.
CPZ signs alert motorists to single yellow line parking restrictions. A motorist parking on a single yellow line in a CPZ is expected to check CPZ parking sign restrictions and, in so doing, would be aware of Event Day restrictions. However, a motorist parking in a resident's bay is subject to the signed restrictions for the bay which may or may not be the same as CPZ restrictions.
Critically, the time plate for this permit parking place does not provide motorists with any information about Event Days. It does not refer the motorist to CPZ signs or to a website for details of Event Days. A motorist parking in the bay cannot be expected to know where to find details of Event Days.
The signage is also confusing as the reference to Event Days could easily be read as extended controlled hours where there is an Event Day Mondays to Fridays.
I therefore find that the signage was not adequate and I allow the appeal for that reason.
--------
2240107190
This vehicle on the council's case was parked on a resident's/shared use bay without valid cover an extended event day restriction being in force.
The relevant day was a Sunday.
The restriction is signed to apply Monday-Saturday 8am-6.30pm.
An additional event day restriction however is signed to apply 8am-9pm.
Where as here no days are specified in respect of a restriction it applies 7 days a week.
The council is required to sign its event days on zone entry signage. Images of event day signage are provided at 'H'. The motorist is expected to read such signage on passing it. I am satisfied that the appellant could not have parked where he did without passing signage such as this. The council is not required to post repeater event day signage within the zone. The Traffic Signs Manual provides guidance only and has no statutory force.
I entirely accept that the appellant intended to park correctly but his vehicle was subject to the extended event day restriction and I must accordingly find this contravention proved.
-
Hello. Did you get a chance to look at it?
-
I'll have a look on the tribunal to see latest cases and will help you draft reps.
-
Thank you for the advice.
New link
https://share.icloud.com/photos/017yufFshQ0MWhwv3lK_a45Cw
-
Thought that was advisable?
See
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
-
Thought that was advisable?
-
For convenience (not sure why you blanked out PCN number and reg mark)
(https://i.ibb.co/HnnhvC5/IMG-3687.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bzzbhFc)
(https://i.ibb.co/XXbmXkg/IMG-3688.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b1Pp1RZ)
-
NTO Arrived
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0489HFdtImobRYZ9naj8O1NYg
-
I'd be happy to draft formal reps should you want to continue.
Hopefully someone else will chip in on the wisdom of continuing but frankly they do not deserve their £40 after that fob off letter.
Thank you! Much appreciated
-
I'd be happy to draft formal reps should you want to continue.
Hopefully someone else will chip in on the wisdom of continuing but frankly they do not deserve their £40 after that fob off letter.
-
The rejection does not address your challenge at all.
I would go on with this by waiting for the notice to owner* but wait for others to look as I've been out of circulation for a while. The more I look at that sign the worse it gets but Newham is a most intractable council.
It is a lower level penalty so the amount at stake is £40/80 not £65/130.
*Are you the registered keeper and is the V5C up to date.
(https://i.imgur.com/qmRRiHl.jpeg)
Thank you for your response. Yes I am the registered owner and V5 is up to date
-
The rejection does not address your challenge at all.
I would go on with this by waiting for the notice to owner* but wait for others to look as I've been out of circulation for a while. The more I look at that sign the worse it gets but Newham is a most intractable council.
It is a lower level penalty so the amount at stake is £40/80 not £65/130.
*Are you the registered keeper and is the V5C up to date.
(https://i.imgur.com/qmRRiHl.jpeg)
-
Anyone have any advice on how I should proceed please?
-
I feel now that Newham's parking signs are defective because there is no indication an event day can also be a Sunday. The event day hours extension is on the same plate under a Mon-Sat timing. This is not how other boroughs do it.
You may actually be right. Didn’t think of it until you mentioned it. The signage is not very clear compared to other boroughs which is comprehensive and no room for misinterpretation
-
I feel now that Newham's parking signs are defective because there is no indication an event day can also be a Sunday. The event day hours extension is on the same plate under a Mon-Sat timing. This is not how other boroughs do it.
-
EDITED OUT
-
Hi all,
Following informal reps, I’ve just received a response and sadly they’ve rejected my reps. I have the rejection letter attached. Do I have a chance to win at LT?
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a73tEk83zkrKPr5z8q2ZdNQQ
-
If you want to fight this, you first have to submit an informal challenge against the PCN. Then, if you're unhappy with their reply, make a decision whether to pay the discounted amount or take the matter further. The alternative is to just pay the discounted amount now, but doing this before any representations are rejected is not recommended. The discounted amount will be re-offered if you submit your reps to arrive with them before the discount period expires, (see your PCN).
Try something like this: -
Dear Sirs
Re postal PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> for alleged contravention on <dd/mm/yyyy> at Leytonstone Road
I deny liability for the above PCN penalty on the grounds that the contravention did not occur due to very poor signing of the Event Days restriction.
When I received the PCN, I was puzzled about why it had been served as I had passed no sign about event day dates on my journey from Mile End. I therefore took some advice, and it was pointed out to me that there was an entry sign to the Zone on the main road just after Marshgate Lane. A look at Google Street View showed an isolated single sign on this wide and busy dual-carriageway where the next event day date is displayed. I definitely did not see this sign, and can only surmise that a high sided vehicle such as a bus or van obscured my view when I drove past, or my attention was to the traffic lights only a few yards distant. I find it quite incredible that the council regard this single sign as adequate to convey the event day information, as it is not located at any junction or location where a motorist might expect to see a sign regarding parking.
In view of this failure to follow the regulations for placement of signs advising of parking and traffic restrictions, I request that the PCN be immediately cancelled, and the council cease enforcement until signage of event days is considerable improved.
Yours faithfully
-
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks
-
Bump
-
Thank you. Wow didn’t even see that even on GSV! That’s so sneaky of them seeing as it’s so far from where the incident occurred. That sign is essentially at the entry of the borough.
-
If you drove along the main road east from Mile End, you would have passed this sign: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HFZbjBF3zbe4DGc99
It's a bit naughty of them to have just a single sign, because a high-sided vehicle like a bus could obscure it. In addition, one would not be looking for the event day date at a location like this which is not at any junction of feature on the road as you drive.
You will see at the bottom of the sign is a slot for the next event date. This is a dual carriageway, so there is nothing to stop them putting a sign on the central reservation. So adequacy of signage is an issue. I'm also not certain about the sign at the bay where you parked. One could argue it is misleading as the event days could be assumed to be within the Mon-Sat of the main restriction, but see what the others say on this one.
-
I travelled from Mile End to Leytonstone Road near Maryland Station ( GSV https://maps.app.goo.gl/vVxzcM7xbF45XvFB8?g_st=ic ), where I parked. The signage stated it was 30 mins free parking Mon-Sat. Seeing as it was Sunday, I assumed it’s was free to park. When I came back to my vehicle, I was greeted with a PCN on my windscreen. I gathered it may have been for an event as it also stated different times for event days.
I have read of another similar case here and everyone mentioned the OP missed the signage about the next event days. I have gone through my route on GSV but cannot see that I’ve passed any CPZ signage that I’ve missed so I had no forewarning about when the next event was. Do I have a case?
I’ve attached the PCN below
https://share.icloud.com/photos/029h2HRDHP0mlj1CpDpi-2OLA