Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: dbcc33 on July 26, 2024, 10:45:43 am
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I've also become a victim to this contravention, mainly due to the inadequate signage which is incredibly hard for a reasonable driver to see.
I'm challenging the PCN. Since the notice I've been back to the service road and seen multiple others carry out the same manoeuvre without realising.
I've submitted a FOI request to the council regarding the PCN, happy to share the results.
Welcome aboard vipninja.
I expect you'll win this one easily if the signage is still the same, but I do know one rule you definitely have broken!
... the forum rule that says "one case, one thread" (https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/house-rules/ ).
Please start a new thread for your PCN and we'll be happy to help, and I for one will be very interested to see the FOI response.
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I've also become a victim to this contravention, mainly due to the inadequate signage which is incredibly hard for a reasonable driver to see.
I'm challenging the PCN. Since the notice I've been back to the service road and seen multiple others carry out the same manoeuvre without realising.
I've submitted a FOI request to the council regarding the PCN, happy to share the results.
If you need advice about your own case please to start your own thread. By all means reference this thread in your own post.
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I've also become a victim to this contravention, mainly due to the inadequate signage which is incredibly hard for a reasonable driver to see.
I'm challenging the PCN. Since the notice I've been back to the service road and seen multiple others carry out the same manoeuvre without realising.
I've submitted a FOI request to the council regarding the PCN, happy to share the results.
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just to update you all that Harrow have not contested by tribunal appeal and cancelled the PCN on the basis that the sign was not compliant on the day !
Am i allowed to ask why it wasnt compliant?! I doubt it ever was and wonder if they thought losing at tribunal would set precedent?
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Also the advance warning sign is on the left hand side of the road by the shops. Why would a driver wanting to park on the right hand side eb looking up at the left hand side and as you said the reason i parked on the right is there was no space on the left, and therefore the sign was quite possibly obscured by parked vehicles anyway.
it seems crazy that they dont put road marking signs and a sign on the opposite side of the road when you turn- or at least have a sign that faces the way drivers are coming in the first instance not up and to the right.
anyway have decided to appeal so will see how it goes.
they didnt even allow me the opportunity to submit any medical evidence, just rejected and due to the nature of the contravention there was no opportunity for informal appeal.
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what do you mean by clearly not a traffic sign? anyway its strange - i was parked past the sign. are they saying i was supposed to see it before i parked and then remember it say an hour later when exiting? i honestly didnt see it.
even the other, not nearside sign turned away, when you pull out and turn, you are only head on after u decide to make the turn so unless u look up and to the right at that very moment (which noone would do unless prompted) i stand by the fact that noone would see it.
how strong do you think the case is?
A traffic sign is what is defined in the manual of signs, the TSRGD (Traffic Signs & General Directions 2022).
Whilst an adjudicator must consider that the council have put up a warning, he must also judge the council on whether the signs they have put up are sufficient to convey the restriction. This advance warning is mounted very high up, but a motorist driving slowly along is looking for a parking spot and in all likelihood would not notice the sign.
So it's really up to you, take the double-or-quits gamble at London Tribunals or pay the discount if on offer. I don't think there is a slam-dunk win here, but a reasonable chance of success. In cases like this that revolve around sign adequacy, which is subjective, much depends on the adjudicator you get on the day.
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what do you mean by clearly not a traffic sign? anyway its strange - i was parked past the sign. are they saying i was supposed to see it before i parked and then remember it say an hour later when exiting? i honestly didnt see it.
even the other, not nearside sign turned away, when you pull out and turn, you are only head on after u decide to make the turn so unless u look up and to the right at that very moment (which noone would do unless prompted) i stand by the fact that noone would see it.
how strong do you think the case is?
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Here is the advance warning sign. Clearly not a traffic sign and liable to be blocked by a parked high-sided vehicle
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NwmtHoGCCNQWxhrB9
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am I correct in assuming if we lose at tribunal the full fee is payable?
Yes, but no more than that, there are no additional costs.
Essentially it is a double-or-quits gamble, the odds depending on how strong is an appellants case.
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Thanks CP
then sign angle does certainly help the case, though i think its impossible to see coming from that direction anyway. It's clearly not made for motorists coming from that direction.
Do you have any idea what they are talking about re: the advance warning? i can see that anywhere either and wonder if they are talking about if coming from another direction.
are we allowed to submit video footage to the tribunal?
I am tempted to continue the appeal but the double fee is annoying - am i correct in assuming if we lose at tribunal the full fee is payable?
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sorry try this link
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/63aj9pjkoobnv2r37dpv2/AJOxOadb1ZyRNuIL7Saa1Yw?rlkey=qvfag642po38pz6t35d17ymag&st=pi1cldy7&dl=0
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Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6klymOeIg4
The nearside sign appears to be angled away from the direction you would have been coming from, so you could not have seen it:
(https://i.imgur.com/VZ7KQN7.png)
Personally I'd carry on and appeal, but obviously it's up to you.
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https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/PCN
Needs logging-in or signing-up :(
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they've rejected my representation
rejection letter uploaded to original link
https://www.dropbox.com/home/Public/PCN
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OK fair enough. Anyway it's done now. will keep you posted re: outcome.
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My advice is to concentrate on your own PCN and not make blanket criticisms of the signage. If you want to do that, you can complain separately to the council.
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That line was suggested by incandescent and i thought it appropriate because it is true that there are 3 different direction you can exit that road from (assuming the opposite side of the road is not one way) and the signs are only visible from the one road if you are coming from the back of the shops.
Do u think it was too harsh?
I've checked the link and it seems ok - am assuming incandescent was able to view it from that link?
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I request the PCN be cancelled and the council cease enforcement at this location
until the signage is improved to be visible to motorists approaching from all
directions.
I would not have included this emboldened part.
I am not accessing the PCN via the link as given.
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Appeal as submitted
Btw it stated that if the appeal was made within 14 days and not successful the discount would be offered, but on the subsequent page before pressing submit it said the exact opposite ie if not successful full payment would be due! Seems they cant even relay their own rules unambiguously.
The contravention did not occur due to inadequate signage.
On the day I parked by Dosa Express on the opposite side. I left the service road at
the nearest exit point, and made a normal right turn onto Kenton Road with no
prohibition signs or street markings observed. After PCN receipt, I examined the
location on GSV (date: May 24). A NRT sign is placed so badly it can only be seen
by drivers exiting from the access road to the rear of the shops. There are no NRT
carriageway markings. I did not see this NRT sign because it is a) placed very high
up & b) end-on to motorists exiting service road impossible for drivers to see
coming from my direction with the sign up high and to the right not in front.
I also had a medical emergency and note that the next exit point isn't NRT so the
prohibition wasn't intuitive.
I request the PCN be cancelled and the council cease enforcement at this location
until the signage is improved to be visible to motorists approaching from all
directions.
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Understood. It's fine. I am prepared to fight this - it is so unjust. was just curious.
Also can you please clarify where the second sign is (u mentioned 2 signs in your draft)?
I can only see one - the one that is really high up on the right hand side up above and in front of the black car just as you exit- ie no way any car driving down the parade with the sign above and right could have seen it unless you knew proactively to look that way before making the turn
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You have the right in law to pay the discounted amount at any time with the 14 days regardless of submitting representations. For reps submitted within the 14 days, but responded to outside the 14 days, most councils re-offer the discount when rejecting those reps. As far as I know, Harrow do this. It is not a legal right enshrined in law, however.
The point to make is that if you are totally hung-up on the discount, then you're three-quarters of the way to losing your case. Councils know that if they refuse all representations, people then cough-up so they just send out Fob-Off letters.
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btw if i submit informal representations within the 14 days of the offered discount, do i retain the right to pay discounted fine if they reject?
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Thank you very much incandescent - that's great ! I really did feel like how am i meant to see it up above and to the right when you're driving you are looking ahead. But wasn't sure if i was being objective or not feeling aggrieved.
Also because i was in a rush for medical reasons i started to doubt myself as to whether i should have seen it before i parked, but obviously then i was looking at the shop side not the other side. It does really seem a sill place to put a sign and like you say they could have put road markings etc and also on the pictures they show the road was completely empty and it didnt feel like a no right turn area at all - why dont they just put one on the opposite side of the road, then i would have realised and could have had the opportunity to turn back - as it was the sign was above and behind me!
Thank you for making me feel better :)
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Is this signage adequate legally or not?
The judgement on this is unfortunately subjective, so the only unbiased view you'll get on its placement, and, indeed, why there is no sign for people driving off from the service road, is at London Tribunals. The governing regulation on road signs is in LATOR (The Local Authorities’ Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996).
Regulation 18 defines what a council must do after approving a Traffic Regulation Order.
Have a read here: -
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/18
When one looks at the sign on GSV< it is a plain as a pike staff, that it is totally inadequate in its placement. The signs have clearly been placed for drivers coming out of the access road to the rear of the shops. What is missing is any sign to indicate No Right Turn to drivers leaving the service road where you parked. Indeed the signage is a bare minimum because whilst the section where you parked has No Entry signs as it is one-way, there are none at the next turn in: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/C16o7edQwbfea5pW8
and also no ban on right turns either !!!
So, if you're up for a fight, why not submit reps on these suggested lines: -
Dear Sirs
Re postal PCN <number> dated <dd/mm/yyyy> for location <Kenton Road Service Road HA3>
I deny liability for the above PCN penalty on the grounds that the contravention did not occur due to appalling sign positioning.
On the day concerned I parked next to Dosa Express. On leaving I exited the service road at the next available exit point, and made a normal right turn onto Kenton ROad. After receipt of the PCN, I examined the location on Google Street Viewe dated May 2024. This shows there are two NRT signs, but placed so badly they can only be seen by drivers exiting from the access road to the rear of the shop. In addition, there are no carriageway markings indicating No Right Turn. At no time did I see the No Right Turn sign because the sign is not only placed very high up, but is placed end-on to motorists exiting the service road.
I therefore request that due to the total inadequacy of the signage, that the PCN be cancelled, and the council cease enforcement at this location until the signage has been improved and made clear to motorists exiting the service road.
Yours faithfully
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Thanks incandescent. I think i have done everything on that list expect for the google link like you mentioned and to say the PCN is from Harrow Council.
Here is the link below:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NWBK6BTZTyuPpKb19
i cant remember EXACTLY where on that shop parade i was parked but i remember it was just before that dosa express shop so could have been where the black car is or the silver car is in this photo.
The point is i drove up and turned and didnt the the sign thats visible in this photo as it would have been above my head if that makes sense- as i turned right - i dont believe there was any sign on the opposite side of the road that made it obvious there was no right turn. I guess the point i am making is the sign is on the street very close to the right hand side of the driving cars facing towards the road - you would only see it if approaching it head on which is very difficult to do on that road as you drive too close to the sign- especially if pulling off from being parked on the right (which i was).
Is this signage adequate legally or not?
Anyway please let me know if there is anything i am supposed to do that i havent yet.
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Kenton Road is a long street. Please post a GSV link to the precise location. In addition, read this and update your thread as necessary: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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Please can someone help me.
I received this PCN for making a prohibited right turn at kenton road service road HA3 and wish to appeal on 2 grounds:
1. inadequate signage - i was parked in the shop parade, cant remember the exact location but think it must have been directly under the sign because i recall getting back to the car driving forward and turning right and not seeing any signs which i wouldnt have as this would have been over my head - is there any requirement to have the sign on the opposite side of the road? how else can someone parked in the parade see it when they dont approach it as they drive as its off on side side?
2. i had a medical emergency and was trying to get some urgent medication (which may have contributed to not seeing sign but tbh i still dont think its possible to see it unless you are coming at it head on from a distance.
Please can someone check for me likielhood of successful appeal in this particular circumstance and advise accordingly ?
many thanks
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/63aj9pjkoobnv2r37dpv2/AJOxOadb1ZyRNuIL7Saa1Yw?rlkey=qvfag642po38pz6t35d17ymag&st=yxac6h6j&dl=0