Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: bingodingo on July 25, 2024, 08:35:54 pm
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Engaging with the council is a must IMO. Instead of thinking how a bailiff may be repelled/avoided etc. (a bailiff who is instructed to pursue each warrant and has no leeway) the OP must see how the council may be persuaded to exercise discretion.
That the OP has a V5C which is out-of-date by 6 years raises all sorts of issues regarding their position IMO, but these are not the issue, it's whether they can either:
Persuade the council to cancel or reduce the outstanding PCNs off their own bat, or
Not to challenge some all of the OP's OOTs.
It is normally the case that unopposed OOTs would be accepted by TEC.
As I understand it, the OP submitted something along the lines of my draft. If they didn't, then engagement is not an option for them and we'll see what transpires. Otherwise await their reply, but chase them before 9th.
As for the car, we've been told it's been sold. Therefore if arm's length the new owner has a problem and the OP has at least £500 to quench the thirst of the bailiffs.
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This website aims to assist individuals with traffic infringements. However, the OP's situation could be more challenging as he failed to update his V5 and consequently received numerous PCNs. Unfortunately, appealing these PCNs is not an option since the TEC will reject them due to his failure to update his V5.
The OP is now burdened with a substantial debt that is beyond his means to pay, invoking a sense of empathy in the audience.
Both the council and the bailiffs are in a difficult position, attempting to collect money or assets that the OP simply does not have.
While this website offers extensive expertise on traffic penalties, it is evident that there is a lack of practical advice on bailiff enforcement. The OP, in his quest for actionable information, has found a potential solution here.
There is no need for a hypothetical debate about the car being towed by bailiffs, as that falls outside the scope of this website, which focuses on motoring advice rather than specialised enforcement guidance.
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@Pressman: According to the regulations you referenced, the new owner does not gain ownership of the car unless they purchased it in good faith.
Exactly. But CDER don't know and are acting correctly if they seize it. So either:
It wasn't a proper transaction, ownership has not been transferred and the OP loses their car, at least pro tem, or
It was a proper transaction but the new owner is inconvenienced by losing use of their vehicle until they can prove ownership.
Both of which would be avoided if the OP told the council.
But you recommend that they don't.
The OP's out it appears, so we may never know the outcome.
Edit: just noticed this on 'dealingwithbailiffs': NEVER ATTEMPT to sell or transfer it[the car] A third party claim will never work. It can only be exported or scrapped.
The OP started as follows:
I am the kind of person who is cooperative with the system when I can be, but this has completely flummoxed me.
But this now appears to have changed to avoidance.
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This is only here for future victims:
I have had good advice from https://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/
Not sure everyone on here is truly out to help you.
Jason at the above website has been very good.
Unsubscribed.
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So your advice to the OP when the council get back to them is what, say Tango Sierra, I'm a person of straw and you can whistle for your money?
I would not do that.
OP, and the person to whom we're led to believe you sold the car (which the council believe is your property by virtue of you being the RK)? Have you told them?
According to the regulations you referenced, the new owner does not gain ownership of the car unless they purchased it in good faith.
Have you told the council?
I would not do that either.
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Given the OP’s substantial traffic debt and their lack of available funds or assets,
..so the OP would have us believe. No-one knows the true situation except the OP..and the council soon.
So your advice to the OP when the council get back to them is what, say Tango Sierra, I'm a person of straw and you can whistle for your money?
It's almost a pauper's charter to break the decriminalised law.
OP, and the person to whom we're led to believe you sold the car (which the council believe is your property by virtue of you being the RK)? Have you told them?
Have you told the council?
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Given the OP’s substantial traffic debt and their lack of available funds or assets, any debate regarding the validity of the council's warrant is purely academic.
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That degree of security seems excessive; I advise against padlocking internal doors. Adequate home security measures and a video doorbell app should suffice as long as you refrain from opening the door to anyone who arrives unannounced or appears suspicious.
Filing a TE9 might reveal your new address, and Bristol could issue a new warrant, leaving you in the same predicament, but this time with a valid warrant for your current address.
Simply put, if you lack the money, there is little a bailiff can do about it. Focus on moving forward and upwards.
The bailiff's clearly know the current address. They've already served four compliance stage notices of enforcement on the OP at his current address. Whether they had a lawful warrant to do so is a separate issue. According to the OP the TEC say that the warrants were for a Folkestone address.
By now they will have informed the Council, of the correct and current address, who will apply for new warrants at the current address. If they haven't already done so.
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That degree of security seems excessive; I advise against padlocking internal doors. Adequate home security measures and a video doorbell app should suffice as long as you refrain from opening the door to anyone who arrives unannounced or appears suspicious.
Filing a TE9 might reveal your new address, and Bristol could issue a new warrant, leaving you in the same predicament, but this time with a valid warrant for your current address.
Simply put, if you lack the money, there is little a bailiff can do about it. Focus on moving forward and upwards.
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OP, you are confusing terms and potentially misleading everyone.
A warrant...is a warrant, it is NOT an Order for Recovery.
You can only submit a witness statement/statutory declaration in respect of an Order for Recovery, not a warrant.
So before you possibly go off in the wrong direction, pl review and amend your list as necessary.
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BS58279685
no warrant yet
BS58312361
no warrant yet
BS58997667
no warrant yet
BS59024227
no warrant yet
BS59288706
no warrant yet
BS59670050
no warrant yet
BS59707365
no warrant yet
BS59951220
no warrant yet
online appeal lodged challenging validity of CAZ re adding subsequent charges:
BS60086527
Will be filling in TE9 and TE7 forms for all the above. Not hopeful but it will slow things down and give me time to get more advice and some help with harassment if needed. Luckily we have an Anarchist group just round the corner. They love this kind of stuff ;)
Back to basics.
Wrong info.
What you want to know from TEC is whether for those ones you are still in time to make 'in time' applications, i.e. TE9s without TE7s
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**Deleted**
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Others may have come across it but I've never seen any cases where a bailiff has entered a home to take goods for PCNs - they are mainly interested in cars. In any case what can they take that's worth anything? You may have a valuable hifi or something like that of course.
It's true that in extreme cases councils can apply for an attachment of earnings but I don't think we've seen that either.
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Whether warrants have been made out to your current address is immaterial as regards TEC. All they want to know is why you should be permitted to submit Statutory Declarations late.
online appeal lodged challenging validity of CAZ re adding subsequent charges:
will be disregarded by the authority as they are entitled to do unless BS60086527 is in time. And what has the validity of the order got to do with matters? IMO, the order is fine, it's just not been implemented correctly which is a different matter.
Don't rattle the authority's cage, IMO you have NOTHING to gain by doing so. You want them to exercise discretion and are wrongly casting them in the role of the bad guys.
Why?
Until you engage(which hopefully you've done now) it's a machine as in a vehicle drives into the zone and is clocked by a camera = automatic check on its status and if non-compliant a PCN is issued.
There's nothing personal about this.
If you p*** them off then someone could well decide to ignore your pleas, arrange for the address on the warrant to be corrected and carry on. Others might know this but as your combined debts exceed the High Court writ threshold they could even escalate the matter.
If bailiffs attend your property then deal with them civilly e.g. may I see the warrant(s) being enforced...I note that they do not have this address on them, sorry but I cannot help you. Good afternoon.
You might want to invest in a video door bell, or perhaps you already have one.
Anyway, the authority should respond to you soon given the trigger date of 9 Aug.
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Sword =====================
Outer door
- dead bolt lock
- latch lock
- chain
- cctv camera
Inner door
- dead bolt lock
- cctv camera
Inside the house
- lounge room door => 2 x padlocks
- bedroom 1 door => 2 x padlocks
- bedroom 2 door => 2 x padlocks
Got the cameras etc off marketplace for £50.
Luckily I worked as a carpenter for a bit so this is all gonna be donkey work over the weekend.
We will not be the low hanging fruit.
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I am doing the pen and the sword approach.
Pen:
For each PCN please find out
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
- what address the order was issued to?
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
BS50752338
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
29/8/23
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS51402664
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
27/7/23
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS51463733
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
13/10/23
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS52018394
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
14/12/23
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS53084361
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
9/2/24
- what address the order was issued to?
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
BS53139805
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
9/2/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS53259862
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
23/2/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS53986109
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
15/3/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS54026076
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
15/3/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS54238314
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
21/3/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS54977952
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
30/4/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS55325560
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
23/5/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS55354547
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
29/5/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS55784149
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
21/6/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS55838372
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
24/6/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS55922887
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
27/6/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS56219387
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
10/7/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS56853779
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
23/7/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS56884477
- the date the order was issued by the TEC?
25/7/24
- what address the order was issued to?
previous address in Folkestone
- whether the order was re-issued with a new address and when?
no
BS58279685
no order yet
BS58312361
no order yet
BS58997667
no order yet
BS59024227
no order yet
BS59288706
no order yet
BS59670050
no order yet
BS59707365
no order yet
BS59951220
no order yet
online appeal lodged challenging validity of CAZ re adding subsequent charges:
BS60086527
Will be filling in TE9 and TE7 forms for all the above. Not hopeful but it will slow things down and give me time to get more advice and some help with harassment if needed. Luckily we have an Anarchist group just round the corner. They love this kind of stuff ;)
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OP, ownership of the car now is immaterial as regards the scale of your dilemma, but potentially material for the new owner who, if it's parked on the street, could find it clamped with a notice from the enforcement agent on the windscreen.
As I understand it, provided they have reasonable grounds for believing that the car is goods of the debtor then they may clamp an no action may be taken against them in this regard. Provided the new owner can show that there is a bill of sale and that this forms part of a bona fide transaction - possibly evidencing withdrawal of funds - and a certificate of insurance in the new owner's name then all should be fine.
DVLA is a red herring because this is about goods belonging to a person AKA ownership, not who is the registered keeper. As the V5C states clearly, this is not a certificate of ownership.
OP, you might want to advise the council that you have sold the car to **** and they became its owner w.e.f *****.
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These actions have not been carried out deliberately but because the car in question is not subject to CAZ charges in Bath, where I often visit, nor any other CAZ in the country. I therefor not unreasonably was under the impression that my car was treated similarly in the Bristol CAZ zone.
Bath is a class C CAZ and does not apply to private cars but greater London of course does apply to private cars as does Birmingham, Bristol, and major Scottish cities.
Oxford has a zero emission zone - all have to pay apart from electric vehicles.
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The car is sold, RK change sent in the mail.
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Date: 30/07/2024
Parking Services (PCN Appeals),
PO Box 3399,
Bristol City Council,
Bristol, BS1 9NE.
To whom it may concern,
Regarding these PCNs:
....
On 25/07/2024, out of the blue I received Notices of Enforcement in respect of four PCNs, nos. BS54238314, BS53986109, BS52018394, BS54026076 for CAZ infringements.
Thankfully your agent has given me until 9 August to pay in each case and this breathing space has allowed me to find out what these are all about and what procedures apply.
As you will see from the list of PCNs above, 28 in total, it appears that my car has been driven into your Clean Air Zone area by different drivers between 18/12/22 and 18/05/24 accumulating over £5000 in penalties with potentially over £8000 (no. PCNs x £310) more in fees to be added by your enforcement agents.
These actions have not been carried out deliberately but because the car in question is not subject to CAZ charges in Bath, where I often visit, nor any other CAZ in the country. I therefor not unreasonably was under the impression that my car was treated similarly in the Bristol CAZ zone.
But as you might reason, to enter and not pay over such an extended period must surely be a positive act because I can see that you sent PCNs smartly after each occurrence and therefore the registered keeper must have known.
But I didn't. And I didn't because when I last changed my address I forgot to update my V5C, instead thinking that updating my driver's licence would be sufficient.
Over £5000 of penalties and fees has brought home to me the error of my ways. However, I would ask the authority to agree that to penalise a registered keeper to this extent is disproportionate. I am reaching out to you in this way to avoid placing the burden of more than 20 Out of Time submissions on the Traffic Enforcement Centre and similarly the authority by way of their response. I also understand that although the diligence of your agent has given them my current address, it is possible that many, if not all, of the warrants give my historical V5C address and would therefore need to be amended through the court process.
I would also note that creditors must not issue a warrant knowing that the debtor is not at the address, as a means of tracing the debtor at no cost (Paragraph 12):
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/353396/taking-control-of-goods-national-standards.pdf
I am sending this letter by email as well as recorded post in an endeavour to begin a speedy dialogue with the council regarding an outcome which suits the circumstances and is fair to all concerned.
Yours faithfully,
....
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It would be helpful to know what you sent to Bristol Council. Please post up the text of your representation.
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I have online submitted and registered posted a letter based on HC kind contribution and other helpful comments in this thread to Bristol CC asking them to take on a view on the situation.
Other than that I don't have any other option.
When I mention judo etc. I am just referring to the fact these bailiff types from what I have seen, are invariably 55, male, overweight, grumpy. They probably get decent results out of intimidating single mums and other vulnerable people. The one I saw come to the door for a previous tenants immediately stood back into the footpath once I filled up the door. I'm not trying to make myself out to be all tough, just that these bailiff types are pretty cowardly and from what I can tell aren't very confident when they come up against someone who can stand their ground.
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The link you provided earlier outlines numerous regulations governing bailiffs, but I could find no provision indicating that bailiffs are authorised to trace debtors. Therefore, it’s unclear why the Government would issue guidelines that seem to contradict this.
I concur that selling the car would be ineffective, given the stipulations in clauses 4 and 5 of your referenced document.
The original poster is clearly in a difficult situation, lacking both the financial resources and the assets needed to pay the debt.
I don’t think the original poster will need to “duck and weave indefinitely,” as this article suggests the contrary.
https://www.nationalbailiffadvice.uk/Protect-Your-Goods.html
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The status of this snippet is part of a non-legally binding National Standard which is 'offered as a helpful tool'. (para. 3 of the Introduction refers)
As regards the PCNs, local authority may, and in fact must, act on the basis that the DVLA address is correct unless notified otherwise by a competent person.
IMO, nothing about this, what I refer to as 'post OfR procedure', affects whether the OP should contact the council. The snippet has no effect on TEC's decision.
According to the OP, they're in the mire unless they can get the number of PCNs reduced, or at least their financial impact.
The council now know, or should know, where the OP lives and as observed by others they would not be able to duck and weave for the rest of eternity.
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The bailiff will track you down, that's their job.
Finding where people live is what bailiffs do for a living.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/353396/taking-control-of-goods-national-standards.pdf Paragraph 12:
Creditors must not issue a warrant knowing that the debtor is not at the address,as a means of tracing the debtor at no cost.
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Your advice about selling the car and moving is IMO foolish.
My suggestion to pay to halt escalation of the debt is sound unless you think you can buck the system which it now appears you do.
You're feeding us snippets, and unsupported snippets at that.
IMO, your reluctance to engage with any part of the procedure cannot end well for you, however many times you work out in a gym. The pen is mightier than the sword or dumbbells.
Give us accurate info so that your dilemma can be addressed. The longer you keep the council machine(and at present it is a machine) in the dark the less likely it is that they'll exercise discretion because their agent is incurring costs.
Submit OOTs AND write to the council. You write to them to give them far more info than TEC could ever be interested in, for example every PCN which is not the subject of the OOT! If you don't, then the only input which the council would get would be your individual OOTs which are copied to them.
You need a story. Why did you drive into the CAZ area so often between the dates? With respect, it's too difficult to trawl back through this thread with its distractions.
Dear Sir,
PCNs **;***;***;***........................
On *** out of the blue I received Notices of Enforcement in respect of two PCNs, nos. ** and *** for CAZ infringements. Thankfully your agent has given me until 9 August to pay in each case and this breathing space has allowed me to find out what these are all about and what procedures apply.
As you will see from the list of PCNs above, ** in total, it appears that my car has been driven into your Clean Air Zone area by different drivers between *** and *** accumulating £***** in penalties with potentially £***** (no. PCNs * £310) more in fees to be added by your enforcement agents.
These actions have not been carried out deliberately but because [** and this is where the thread is a little thin]. But as you might reason, to enter and not pay over such an extended period must surely be a positive act because I can see that you sent PCNs smartly after each occurrence and therefore the registered keeper must have known.
But I didn't. And I didn't because when I last changed my address I forgot to update my V5C, instead thinking that updating my driver's licence would be sufficient.
£****** of penalties and fees has brought home to me the error of my ways. However, I would ask the authority to agree that to penalise a registered keeper to this extent is disproportionate. I am reaching out to you in this way to avoid placing the burden of **** Out of Time submissions on the Traffic Enforcement Centre and similarly the authority by way of their response. I also understand that although the diligence of your agent has given them my current address, it is possible that many, if not all, of the warrants give my historical V5C address and would therefore need to be amended through the court process.
I am sending this letter by email as well as post in an endeavour to begin a speedy dialogue with the council regarding an outcome which suits the circumstances and is fair to all concerned.
*- OP, I've added reference to the warrants in order to forestall anyone suggesting that wrongly made out warrants is a panacea. It isn't, it's simply part of the process. IMO, in your mind you need to separate issues related to enforcement post-Orders for Recovery from the PCNs. TEC couldn't care two hoots whether you've got 1 or 101 PCNs, it's outside their remit.
Fairness in this case is a legal principle which applies to the council.
I give the above to stimulate discussion, but don't forget that 9 August is looming so you need to do something intra-procedure as opposed to hiding your car, which isn't the be all and end all anyway. They want money and only clamp to get your attention, not to remove and sell.
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Selling the car won't really help. Presumably you'll get another one and the bailiff will clamp it when they find it.
And moving address is only a short term fix. The bailiff will track you down, that's their job. They'll likely turn up when you least expect it.
I still suggest that submit a late representation against all the PCNs to the Council in parallel to anything else. After all they have a problem as well. They're no longer under any obligation to consider representations, but they might so it's worth a try. A representation pointing out that that you did submit a change of address to the DVLA in month/year xxxx, that was before the alleged contraventions occurred. It wasn't your fault that it wasn't processed.
Had you actually received the first PCN for the 18th Feb 2023 contravention then you would have known about the Clean Air Zone and wouldn't have contravened it again. It's unfair to pursue charges against you when you have not received any of the statutory notices due to circumstances which were not within your control. Terribly, sorry, won't do it again etc etc. Please use your discretion and cancel the PCNs and please do not oppose my Out of Time applications. You could offer to pay the first CAZ charge of £9 or all 27 lot's of £9.
And you should also submit Witness Statements against each of the PCNs, with Out of Time applications if required. And be aware that it seems that most or even all of the Bristol CAZ PCNs issued in 2023 are defective. If you can get them in front of the Adjudicator it looks like you will win. Please see below.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-67559305
https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2023-08-22/council-wins-only-17-per-cent-of-clean-air-zone-fine-appeals
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12996921/Bristol-Ulez-fine-wording-clean-air-zone-money.html
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/council-denies-pay-back-31-9050931
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I am selling the car this weekend to my friend.
We are looking for somewhere to move to, were planning to move anyway.
Gonna stick to the "tough it out" plan.
I will post back in 6 months to update.
Thanks all for your advice.
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Where did the number of 27 come from? The Council or the TEC?
What did the TEC say about the warrants and the dates of sealing?
What did BAO say about the Out of Time applications?
You need to post up a list of all the PCNs and their dates.
I still suggest that you try a late representation to the Council. Along the lines of my post of the 26th July. Ultimately you need them to cancel the PCNs or at least not to oppose your OOT applications.
Put let's get all the facts straight first.
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If you didnt update the V5, how did you get a Notice of Enforcement? And how many of them have you been given?
Finding where people live is what bailiffs do for a living.
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If you didnt update the V5, how did you get a Notice of Enforcement? And how many of them have you been given?
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I don't have that money, we are just a normal family.
The penalty is so out of wack with the crime - forgetting to chase up a V5c update during the pandemic. I have my back up now and happy to fight these people.
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You dont need to be worried about getting into a judo fight with a bailiff.
With 37 fines of £204 each and 27 Compliance Stage fees of £75 each, totalling £2,025, plus an Enforcement Stage fee of £235, the total amount reaches £9,558. The bailiff faces a dilemma. With only a £500 car and regulations barring them from using force to gain entry, their options are severely limited, leaving them with little more than harsh language.
Others may believe in paying up regardless of the circumstances. Still, if you don't have that kind of money readily available, there's only a little you can do except handle the situation as it arises. In the meantime, ensure your home is secure.
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Looked into things full today.
Had a heart attack when I realized I actually have 27 outstanding caz charges (if you don't know you don't know).
I then spent all day reading around traffic law.
I also got some really good advice, support and options from Jason and Sheila:
nationalbailiffadvice.uk
jasonbennison.com
Jason Bennison
07988 226 048
bailiffadviceonline.co.uk
Sheila
01643 841 886
Basically, my car is 20 years old, rusty, has dints, worth £500. It will probably die in the next 6 months (gears getting a bit clunky).
We are gonna tough this one out:
- I have moved my car to a friend's house driveway.
- I am a pretty big guy, did judo as a child, boxing as teenager, I play football and do some upper body.
- I have had bailiffs come round before looking for previous tennants, I know what they look like.
- We will not be opening the door to anyone.
Wish us luck...
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Neil, there's been a notable change in the advice. What legislation makes the agreement legality binding?
HCA stated that agreeing on a payment plan stops enforcement. However, the current advice now indicates that such an agreement only prevents a visit from enforcement officers.
To support the OP, we need to establish an accurate legal position regarding the impact of enforcing a payment plan in this context.
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Simply, the NoE states:
If you don't pay or agree a payment plan on time we will visit you..[and levy the Enforcement Stage fee].
Yep.
It's an agreement, i.e. a contract and therefore legally binding. Not rocket science and doesn't need to appear in any legislation.
This reminds me of the time you, pressman, couldn't comprehend the 4pm processing cut off time, expecting it to be a firm commitment that TEC were required to stick to for suspending enforcement. Not understanding that it was subject to realistic practicality (and, for many months now, hasn't existed, in practice, at all).
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Simply, the NoE states:
If you don't pay or agree a payment plan on time we will visit you..[and levy the Enforcement Stage fee].
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After conducting a comprehensive review, I have gained a deep understanding of the legal obligations related to stopping enforcement actions upon reaching a payment plan agreement.
I also reached out to HCA via private message, as he had suggested. However, after not receiving a response, I reviewed the two links he provided.
I found no legal provisions that requires a stop of enforcement when a payment plan is in place.
HCA's advice is highly valued in our discussions. If he could kindly share the source of his advice, it would greatly contribute to our understanding and be appreciated by all.
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To respond to your PM.
Posting on here won't damage your case. There's no need to be concerned. The only information you need to redact is your name and address.
This is about getting you back into the appeal process which will require successful Out of Time applications to get the warrants revoked. And if that cannot be done then how to minimise the damage.
Whether it's five years or six years since you moved is not really the issue. The bottom line is that when you moved you assert that you sent the change of RK address to the DVLA. But have you any proof?
The bottom line is that the change was not processed and it seems you didn't follow that up. From the Council's point of view they served their PCNs and associated documents on the person and the address held by the DVLA. It's not their fault that the DVLA info was out of date.
I think it might be best to submit a late representation to the Council in parallel to anything else. They're no longer under any obligation to consider it, but they might so it's worth a try. A representation pointing out that that you did submit a change of address to the DVLA in month/year xxxx, that was before the alleged contraventions occurred. It wasn't your fault that it wasn't processed.
Had you actually received the first PCN for the 18th Feb 2023 contravention then you would have known about the Clean Air Zone and wouldn't have contravened it again. It's unfair to pursue charges against you when you have not received any of the statutory notices due to circumstances which were not within your control. Terribly, sorry, won't do it again etc etc. Please use your discretion and cancel the PCNs and please do not oppose my Out of Time applications.
Perhaps HCA might help draft something for you? He's good at that sort of letter.
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Thanks Enceladus, very kind of you to give me guidance - I will get onto all the phone calls first thing Monday morning and post here with the information I gather from your questions.
I will also call (I previously messaged) Bailiff Advice Online on Monday morning.
Don't know what the car is worth, but not much, maybe only as little as £500 for a quick sale.
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The Notices of Enforcement are dated 20/07/2024. These notices have to give you seven clear days to pay up. Yours have to be paid by 23:59 on 09/08/2024. Which is unusually generous from Marston. So let's make sure all is in proper order.
Please phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) at Northampton County Court, Tel: 0300-123 1059, Monday am if possible.
For each PCN please find out the date the warrant was issued by the TEC, and whether the warrant was re-issued with a new address and when? Please report back. The TEC is open at 09:00 to 17:00. But phone earlier rather than later. The PCN numbers are the reference numbers beginning BS on the Notices of Enforcement.
It won't cost you any more money to submit Out of Time applications. So you might as well have a go. However it's hard to know what you can put on the OOT that helps explain why you are late. A six year out of date address for the RK is very hard to explain.
If Bristol object then your applications will be rejected. And it is likely financially unviable to try, or even if you might be able, to get that rejection reversed. So it's vital to maximise you chances of success with the OOT applications, which is why I referred you to Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/). I still believe it would be best to get advice from them.
What's the value of the car?
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Why would you want to submit the TE7 - which is the key document - because you posted: I will contact Bailiff Advice Online for help submitting Witness Statements with Out of Time applications.
Thanks for your responses H C - I have contacted Bailiff Advice Online, but haven't heard back yet, so I am trying to keep ahead of things and prepare for all eventualities.
If you submit your TE7 with nothing more than 'I didn't receive...' then be prepared to fail.
H C, you are obviously experienced in this area - could you kindly offer suggestions of how to make a TE7 more likely to succeed?
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I have enquired about the regulations that permit the establishment of a payment plan to stop the enforcement. I will provide this information as soon as I have confirmed the specifics.
Thank you Pressman, that is very kind of you to take the time.
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It's not a fine, it's a penalty.
Each NoE carries exactly the info required for the TE9, except that the council is the applicant.
So, no unknowns.
Why would you want to submit the TE7 - which is the key document - because you posted: I will contact Bailiff Advice Online for help submitting Witness Statements with Out of Time applications.
If you submit your TE7 with nothing more than 'I didn't receive...' then be prepared to fail.
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Upon reviewing a TE9 form, it raises a pertinent question: if you were unaware of the fine, how could you be expected to know the details? The letter provides the penalty reference, which should suffice for the court to access the relevant particulars without needing to request them from you.
I have enquired about the regulations that permit the establishment of a payment plan to stop the enforcement. I will provide this information as soon as I have confirmed the specifics.
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The main part I am not sure about is the top of TE9 form:
https://imgur.com/a/MCvjVR5
I have read that as I haven't received info / PCN, I should fill these fields with "UNKNOWN" (apart from "Penalty Charge No.", which I have from the Bailiff letter).
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I am reading up on filling out the TE7 and TE9 forms.
I have my proof of current address ready.
On Monday I will be speaking to these people to check I have the right forms and the correct/best way to fill them in:
# Bristol Clean Air Zone
0117 903 6385
# Traffic Enforcement Center NN1 2LH
Telephone: 0300 123 1059
# Citizens Advice Bristol
48 Fairfax Street, Bristol, BS1 3BL
0808 278 7957
# Stop the Bailiffs Jason Bennison
https://stopthebailiffs.uk/appeal-traffic-debt-parking-fine-after-bailiffs-statutory-declaration-out-of-time-witness-statement.html
22 Wenlock Road, London N1 7GU
07988 226048
jasonbennison1(at)gmail.com
Jason Bennison. Practitioner in Civil Enforcement (Bailiffs) Restitution.
# Marston (Bailiff)
0333 3201822
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The second link gives the fees clearly.
If one goes further one can find that once a payment plan is agreed then enforcement must ease - because payment has been made- and may only recommence if the keeper defaults.
If you are still unsure, pl pm me.
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Your third reference directs us to a table of regulations. Regulation 5(b) refers to "the first attendance at the premises." However, I could not find any mention of a £235 fee to seize goods.
I was unable to locate the authoritative source for your first link. However, it mentions: "If you fail to pay during the 'Compliance stage' or default on a payment arrangement, the enforcement company will pass your account to an individual enforcement agent.", which aligns with my earlier point that asking for a payment plan from the company is unproductive.
As your third link highlights, the fees, including the £75 compliance fee, are applicable to enforcement agents, not the companies, which suggests that negotiating a payment plan with a company may be futile due to the lack of legal authority for any company to engage in the capacity of an enforcement agent.
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Both.
At the time of the visit to execute the warrant and if necessary seize goods...
£235 may be added.
https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/bailiff-regulations/taking-control-of-goods-fees-regulations-2014
The link has further links to the Act and regulations themselves.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/schedule/made?view=plain
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2007/15/contents
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£235 is to execute the warrant by seizing goods,
At the time of the visit, an enforcement fee of £235 will be added to the debt.
For those of us less informed, could you clarify which of these statements is correct?
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£235 is to execute the warrant by seizing goods, not an administrative step. OP, if you're concerned then do it on the phone.
For info, a very useful concise view of the regs from BAO's website:
If you fail to pay during the ”Compliance stage’ [the £75 fee stage] or you default on a payment arrangement, the enforcement company will pass your account to an individual enforcement agent. The agent will visit your property for the purpose of ‘taking control’ of your goods. At the time of the visit, an enforcement fee of £235 will be added to the debt. It is important to note that if the enforcement agent is enforcing more than one debt, he should only charge one ‘enforcement stage’ fee. He should’t apply ‘multiple’ charges.
Anyway OP, your address is out in the open, so let's dispense with any 'Don't tell them, Pike' thoughts!
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My advice is cases such as yours is to pay. In your case set up an affordable payment plan now.
Why?
Because it caps your liability.
That will not work. The company will send a bailiff round to set up the payment plan, and that's £235 added to the bill.
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Yes the notice of enforcement letters are addressed to my current address - my current address is printed at the top of each of the NoE letters (redacted with a black rectangle by myself).
I need to go find the envelope...
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As per Enceladus, and absent any silver bullet which BAO might produce, I don't think you would succeed with OOTs. Therefore you're looking at damage limitation. In this respect, I think you need to approach the council direct and set out the whole story.
But before this, what do you mean by 'I have just received 4 Notices of Enforcement'?
How did they arrive? A window envelope with your name and address clear on agents' headed paper or what?
Are the NoE's addressed to you at your current address?
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I am normally very good with this stuff and before sending in the V5C to change my address, I took a photocopy.
With this, I was just able to update the RK address online.
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I have just spoken to the DVLA on the phone and they never received the new address notification and the vehicle is currently registered at my old address.
I was told to either fill out a V62 or perhaps I might be able to do it online.
So going forwards I will:
- register new address with DVLA
- contact Bailiff Advice Online for help submitting Witness Statements with Out of Time applications.
Is this the correct course of action?
I really really need to do my best to resolve this as otherwise we will have to sell the car.
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Last V5c 20/11/2018, that's a bit less than the six years you say you've been living at your current address. So perhaps the Registered Keeper change of address was processed by the DVLA but the new V5c went missing?
I would check with the DVLA as to what address they currently hold for the RK?
The amount demanded for each PCN is £273. So that must include the unpaid £9 CAZ fee.
£120 = Penalty Charge
£60 = Charge Certificate uplift
£9 = CAZ fee
£9 = Court (TEC) debt registration fee
£75 = Bailiff compliance stage fee
£273 = Total
It's been held by the independent adjudicator several times that the Council cannot recover the CAZ fee in conjunction with the PCN. So you have a chance of winning if you can get the cases before the adjudicator. That said I don't see a route to do that if you've seemingly failed to update your address.
Consider approaching Bailiff Advice Online (https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/) for help submitting Witness Statements with Out of Time applications.
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Get online to DVLA and update your V5C now pl.
Are you saying that there's chance(AKA risk) that your V5C has been out of date for 6 years?
As regards the council, others are more au fait with Bristol CAZ PCNs but I seem to remember that there's a flaw.
Hold off paying the bailiffs for now and wait for other views.
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We have been paying for all car costs, insurance / ved etc, online.
I have been through my folder of records this morning and it seems when we moved I sent off the V5C with new keeper address details.
But we never received the updated V5C.
I feel a bit sick...
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If £1100 is a lot of money to you, try adding another £235to this!
Read the bottom of the NoEs. If you do not pay by end of play 9 Aug. then the visit would cost another £235 - luckily, if this is the word, only one Enforcement Fee should be charged.
My advice is cases such as yours is to pay. In your case set up an affordable payment plan now.
Why?
Because it caps your liability. You can then discover what went wrong and follow correct procedure in order to give you the best chance to access adjudication and appeal. Otherwise you risk submitting 'out of time' (OOT) applications to the Traffic Enforcement Centre with no reason for not responding to the OfR(see Incandescent's previous post for list of statutory notices)other than 'I did not receive them' which has a 99.999% failure rate.
If your OOTs are successful then the bailiff fees paid are refunded and the payment plan voided. The process reverts to the council with 'just' the full penalties in play.
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All of the statutory enforcement documents would have been sent by post to the name and address on the V5C Registration Certificate for the vehicle. So is the address on your V5C correct in every detail and was correct when the alleged contraventions occurred in 2023 ? You say you have lived at your current address for 6 years. So have you received the normal DVLA VED reminders, for instance ?
The statutory documents would have been
- PCN
- Charge Certificate
- Order for Recovery
so all 12 have gone astray somehow.
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Hello Kind People,
Today I received 4 Bailiff letters (Marston Recovery, dated 20/7/24) about unpaid "Penalty Charges". These "Notice of Enforcement" letters all came in the same envelope, but refer to offences that took place on different dates:
- 18/2/23
- 29/5/23
- 30/5/23
- 11/6/23
Each letter is requesting £273, for a total of £1093. Quite a shock.
Upon doing some research I have found out that they are old Bristol CAZ infringements. It seems Bristol Council and myself were unaware of these infringements (until today) as my car is in a grey zone - OK for nearly all CAZ zones but not Bristol's more strict one.
I have included pictures of the 4 Bailiff letters as well as the Bristol online PCN info that I tracked down from the "Reference or account number (if appropriate):" on the bailiff letters:
https://imgur.com/a/R4R62ma
I am the kind of person who is cooperative with the system when I can be, but this has completely flummoxed me. The Bailiff letters list so little information, they don't even mention Bristol CAZ.
I have been at the same address for 6 years and have received no previous letters about these fines. It took quite a lot of time trying to get to the bottom of it today.
Any help greatly appreciated, we are just an ordinary family and I'm really not sure how we would pay for this at the moment.