Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Driver86 on July 25, 2024, 07:08:47 pm
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outcome, case 2240431122
Mr Dishman attended today to represent the appellant who did not attend.
The Penalty Charge Notice was issued when the appellant’s car was parked in a suspended bay. At the time that the Penalty Charge Notice was issued, and the vehicle was subsequently removed there was a suspension sign on the post behind the appellant’s car. The sign was below the permanent sign for the bay. In addition to the permanent sign that is also a sign for a cycle route. The post on which the sign is placed is next to a wall on which there is a mural of an animal painted in red.
The council provides evidence that the sign and three others in Virginia Road were erected on 18th July and that at that time the appellant's car was not parked.
Mr Zaman provided one image from his dashcam and I have seen further images uploaded by Mr Dishman on 2nd December. The images provided are stills which show that the appellant drove along Virginia Road at 20:51 on 21st July. The last image is at 20:51:59 taken from a moving vehicle. It shows the post outside the wall with the mural. I find that it is quite clear that at that time there was no suspension sign on the post. Mr Zaman then pulled over to the right of the road and parked near to the junction. Once he had parked his car the sign next to the wall with the mural was behind the car.
I find that the suspension sign had been removed between 18th and 21st July when the appellant parked his car. I have seen no evidence of when it was re-erected. The sign was in place when the civil enforcement officer took photographs at 11:00 on 23rd July. The council has not provided any evidence to show when the sign was put up again notwithstanding that the appellant provided a photograph of the post outside the wall with the mural when he made his formal representation.
I allow this appeal. I am not satisfied that there was any notice of the suspension of the bay in which the appellant parked his car.
I had three major arguments but it was only necessary to discuss signage as the adjudicator had 10 minutes reading the file before I went into her room (I was early and seen early as the case prior to mine was a no show).
One pithy remark she did make, and others take note, that citing the council's 'complete lack of knowledge or investigative skills' when your own case is unclearly presented wasn't a good start. Politeness pays. However, the dashcam images and my explanation helped the adjudicator to understand exactly what had happened and she picked up that the council had been told the signage was missing and didn't comment upon it.
This was my only case yesterday, in contrast to the nine I did last week, and it turned out well. The PCN paid at £65 and the towing fee of £200 now both have to be refunded.
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Hi MrMustard - thanks for offering. Will email you soon.
If you would like free representation please email me mrmustard@zoho.com
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Back to your dashcam please. You've posted up a still image. Are you saying this is a frame from when the car was in motion and not yet parked? IE approaching the sign on the pole visible on the offside of the road?
I assume so, so it seems that the Council believe your frame is a still from when the car was stationary and parked in the bay. Not a frame from when it was approaching the parking place. Seems the Council believe you were parked on the double yellow lines on the nearside.
I think you need to make this clearer because at first reading I understood your photo to be of when the car was stationary and parked on the left side of the raod. Yes indeed the pole visible to the offide has no suspension sign however is not relevsnt if it it's on the opposite pavement to where you parked.
I'm concerned that an Adjudicator might also read your submission the same way and misunderstand the realtionship between where you actually parked and the signpost.
You case is that there was no suspension sign in-situ in the bay on the right hand side of the road, where is where you parked, at the time that you parked. The suspension notice was installed at some unknown time after you parked. So make that very clear. Your dashcam image was taken just before you reached the parking bay and confirms that the suspension notice was not in place. This is the same pole visible in the CEO's evidence photo that shows the same pole at the offside rear of your car after you'd parked.
Please revise your draft nd post it up.
Thanks for your feedback. Yes the image is of my vehicle on approach to the bay, while in motion...let me know if this is better...
I parked my vehicle on Sunday, 21st July 2024 at approximately 20:50pm at Virginia Road, where I am a resident permit holder. My vehicle was removed on the 23rd of July 2024 at 10:57am for allegedly parking in an suspended bay. After paying the £265 fine to recover my vehicle I appealed the PCN and removal as instructed by the Enforcement Authority.
In my appeal submission to the EA, I provided images from my dashcam which shows my vehicle on approach to the parking bay. The image is a still image which capture's the signage at the last possible moment, as dashcams are forward facing, needed the image to be from an angle which shows the signage in its view. Please see images from dashcam attached as evidence. This sign post is the same as this taken from a google maps location highlighting that this is the same bay where my vehicle was removed from and the last signage on the road where I parked. https://maps.app.goo.gl/t99GA6a5zUH8GuxT9
However, the EA in their response, state that the dashcam image is "only showing the street in front of the vehicle", they also state the CEO’s images indicate that the suspension notice is behind my vehicle, further highlighting the complete lack of knowledge or investigative skills to understand that a dashcam can not see out the side of a vehicle, and therefore this image would have been the last taken of the relevant bay and signpost.
The EA state in their notice of rejection that notices were put in place on 18th July, however, the date and timestamp of the image from my dashcam contradicts this. I can not be certain if this signpost was missed or if it had been vandalised after being placed.
The image I provided from my dashcam, plus the image from CEO is of the same parking signplate pole. However, the EA fail to acknowledge this and rely on this to reject my appeal. This can be verified by the google maps image given above and the painting on the wall behind the signage on all images.
Furthermore, there is a procedural impropriety on the part of the EA. The Trafic Management Act 2004 stipulates that a notice of rejection must be served within 56 days of the appeal, however the EA has not been able to provide any evidence that this was sent by post, or by email within the regulated timeframe.
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If you would like free representation please email me mrmustard@zoho.com
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Back to your dashcam please. You've posted up a still image. Are you saying this is a frame from when the car was in motion and not yet parked? IE approaching the sign on the pole visible on the offside of the road?
I assume so, so it seems that the Council believe your frame is a still from when the car was stationary and parked in the bay. Not a frame from when it was approaching the parking place. Seems the Council believe you were parked on the double yellow lines on the nearside.
I think you need to make this clearer because at first reading I understood your photo to be of when the car was stationary and parked on the left side of the raod. Yes indeed the pole visible to the offide has no suspension sign however is not relevsnt if it it's on the opposite pavement to where you parked.
I'm concerned that an Adjudicator might also read your submission the same way and misunderstand the realtionship between where you actually parked and the signpost.
You case is that there was no suspension sign in-situ in the bay on the right hand side of the road, where is where you parked, at the time that you parked. The suspension notice was installed at some unknown time after you parked. So make that very clear. Your dashcam image was taken just before you reached the parking bay and confirms that the suspension notice was not in place. This is the same pole visible in the CEO's evidence photo that shows the same pole at the offside rear of your car after you'd parked.
Please revise your draft nd post it up.
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Good news is that London Tribunals have accepted to hear my appeal and have set a telephone date for November 4th. A slap in the face for the Enforcement Authority who advised me that my only recourse now would be the POST OFFICE as they have received their money and will not be re-opening the case.
I'd be grateful if one of the experts can look over my submission and recommend any additions to stregnthen my case? I dont think I had enough around the rules on the placing of the suspension notices...
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Getting error messages when uploading to this site, but here is the reps I submitted to London Tribunals last nighthttps ://1drv.ms/b/c/560cd59511b71091/EaUdrXpxhyhDsMHd6SIC1YYBQSxA4uwo9XprVR2ZZvdtYw for which I requested an in-person hearing. Would be grateful if someone can look through and and advise if I've covered everything?
That link doesn't work for me.
OK this works.
PCN & Tow appeal. (https://1drv.ms/b/c/560cd59511b71091/EaUdrXpxhyhDsMHd6SIC1YYBQSxA4uwo9XprVR2ZZvdtYw)
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Getting error messages when uploading to this site, but here is the reps I submitted to London Tribunals last nighthttps ://1drv.ms/b/c/560cd59511b71091/EaUdrXpxhyhDsMHd6SIC1YYBQSxA4uwo9XprVR2ZZvdtYw for which I requested an in-person hearing. Would be grateful if someone can look through and and advise if I've covered everything?
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OK last night I submitted a late appeal explaining the circumstances, they also wanted me to submit my whole representation with it. Will post up later tonight.
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Adjudicators can accept late appeals, but you will probably have to explain the circumstances.
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It is blank, thats how they've given it. No I didnt use their form.
I have received their notice of rejection by email today I've attached here. https://ibb.co/QfzNqjj
Two points:
1. They appear to be saying the dashcam image and their CEO image are of two different poles. It's not, it is the same pole.
2. They say my car was not parked there when they erected the signage on 18th July, where as my argument is that when I did park my car there on 21st July, the signage was not there as can be seen in the dash cam footage.
Any thoughts on contacting tribunal to see if they will accept a late appeal due to not receiving the letter?
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(https://i.ibb.co/NxyrYvT/20240922-191541.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8M7b8CY)
Your second link gives a blank sheet of paper?
Did you use their form?
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Thanks. Agree that it is at odds with the PCN to follow that process, and I I would have thought they would need to write to the registered owner? but to get the info within 1 working day is unlikely to have registered owners details (since it ain't me!).
I wonder if they are relying on this flimsy document they attached to the PCN and gave to me when I paid their charge... https://ibb.co/8M7b8CY
https://ibb.co/QfLrxt4
I'll keep chasing that NoR letter through this week and then I will try submitting reps to London Tribunals explaining that this was not received previously.
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and here we have a perfect example of why EDW and Bogsy were right about removals and the Tribunal/adjudcators were wrong. You pay up front, make a formal rep and hear nothing back. Under the current process the appellant cannot get the case set back because no Order for Recovery with a witness statement form will ever be served because the appellant was forced to pay the PCN upfront. The Council deviated from the TMA 2004. What is the point of serving a TMA 2004 PCN if payment and appeal follow s.101A RTRA 1984 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/101A)and s.101B RTRA 1984 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/101B)? If a regulation 9 PCN (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/576/regulation/3) says these are your rights but these rights are not actually your rights, surely the PCN must be invalid? The correct section to apply was s.102 RTA 1984 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/102) just as Schedule 9 TMA 2004 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/schedule/9) indicates. In which case it's worth noting that s.102(4) (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/section/102)does not extend to civil enforcement authorities and therefore everything the PCN says in relation to payment and appeal remains applicable. In my opinion this is no coincidence.
A perfect one for CP8759 to get his teeth into.
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But there is no order of recovery, its closed they say as I have paid £265 to release my car, and then as far as they are concerned I did not respond to notice of rejection. This is robbery.
What can do to have this re-opened? Can I submit to tribunal even at this stage without their "blessing" once I get that illusive NoR letter?
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Good.
Adjudication here you come.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process
Your position has improved because there are prospective procedural c**k-ups a-plenty which the authority could make.
Anyway, for now you wait for the Order for Recovery:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process
But keep your finger on the pulse - if one letter sent via the Royal Mail(Post Office!!) can go missing, then so could an OfR.
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I contacted Tower Hamlets council to get an update on this and they told me that this is now closed as they sent me "notice of rejection" the day after my appeal apparently - but I never received it. One of their staff told me that it might be something I need to take up with the Post Office?! - surely they are having a laugh!
There will be no charge certificate as I paid to have the car back.
I've asked them to email me the copy of the letter which I am now having to wait on. Do I have any rights left?
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Please have a read of the READ THIS FIRST - ** (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/msg3/#msg3) sticky post at the top of the forum.
You've redacted the VRM when you were clearly instructed not to. So please reinstate in the posted image of the PCN or put in your next post. I for one want to check the CEO photos.
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Hi H C Anderson - Which image are you referring to?
Dashcam? Image taken just as I prepare to enter parking-bay on 21st July. This is the only direction you can see the signpost since dashcams are looking straight on (not turned to the right).
CEO Photo? It is of my vehicle at the point of removal on 23rd July. The Yellow signpost must have been erected that morning.
I have a resident's permit for the area.
The head-on photo you've posted shows your car parked almost adjacent to the first (only?) traffic sign in the bay(from this direction) on which is a clear, three-winged 'Notice Parking Suspended' sign.
On the face of it your account is at odds with this evidence.
Pl reinstate your VRM so that we can view all the council's photos pl and see the details of the suspension.
Were you displaying a resident's permit as otherwise required?
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The head-on photo you've posted shows your car parked almost adjacent to the first (only?) traffic sign in the bay(from this direction) on which is a clear, three-winged 'Notice Parking Suspended' sign.
On the face of it your account is at odds with this evidence.
Pl reinstate your VRM so that we can view all the council's photos pl and see the details of the suspension.
Were you displaying a resident's permit as otherwise required?
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You've already paid all there is to pay, so it is a total no-brainer to take them all the way to London Tribunals, and you should win because they have failed to sign the suspension properly. First you have to submit representations to the council, then when they refuse them, you register an appeal to London Tribunals, as there are no additional costs in doing so.
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Ok that's good to know. Remember that my vehicle was removed so I had to pay the cowboys £260 to get my car back.
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So here is the sign you say had no suspension sign on it which was nearest to your car: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/tcG9QHHMEs71qxNF9
A motorist is entitled to rely on the sign nearest his car, and not to have to visit every sign for the bay. So with no sign, the suspension has not been adequately signed and you should submit reps on this basis. If they prove obdurate, you would have a very good case at adjudication, indeed would probably get costs as well. Councils are have legal obligations just like motorists, so don't fold and pay if they reoffer the discount, it's just easy money for them.
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Hi All
I parked my vehicle on Sunday night on Virginia Road in this bay https://maps.app.goo.gl/PLU1V2vTWxqaArDW9 only to find my vehicle had been removed on Tuesday AM. It appears the bays were suspended. But there was no signage on that pole where I am parked.
I have a still image from my dashcam which can be viewed here https://ibb.co/GWVH2cR
I noticed on the dashcam footage that the pole at the other end of the street had a yellow signplate indicating suspended parking, and wondering if that is enough for them?
Here is the the ticket I recieved https://ibb.co/3M1XwC1 and image from CEO when removing my vehicle https://ibb.co/q5QkJTy All the other images are of my tyre and the paint on my door. It appears they erected a signage, and placed it underneath the signplate.