Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: reeceg03 on July 25, 2024, 07:07:35 pm
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21/06/2024, i have now got another letter - single justice procedure asking to plead guilty or not guilty to both charges, which i plead not guilty to, seems like they didn’t receive my letter of admitting it was my dad, but i had heard nothing for months so assumed it was dealt with.
The SJPN issue date is 22/06/2024 which is longer than 6 months, so surely based on that both charges have timed out?
So, you received the SJPN the day before it was issued? And 22/06/2024 is more than 6 months after 24/12/2023 (not that 28 days after 26/11/2023 is relevant to anything)?
We are not qualified to give you the help you need.
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But considering the offence was 26/11/2023, 28 days later would still be in december. The SJPN issue date is 22/06/2024 which is longer than 6 months, so surely based on that both charges have timed out?
The Failure to Provide Driver's details offence occurred 27 days after you received the request, so on 23rd December. So the police had until 23rd June to bring proceedings which they managed to do.
The speeding charge is raised against you, not your father. You could argue that it was raised out of time but since you were not driving that offence is of no concern to you. There is no possibility that the police will raise a speeding charge against your father now. It is well out of time and they still have no evidence he was driving anyway.
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But considering the offence was 26/11/2023, 28 days later would still be in december. The SJPN issue date is 22/06/2024 which is longer than 6 months, so surely based on that both charges have timed out?
The S172 offence is committed after a driver is not named within the 28 days of the service of the S172 request. The date of the alleged speeding event is irrelevant.
So what is the date on the NIP served first on you? Noting that for a hire/lease car that can easily be 6 weeks after the alleged speeding event.
You now suggest a lot of backwards and forwards between your father and the police which would suggest making any possible perverting charge easier to succeed with, I really don't think you want to rock the boat here.
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Proceedings have to be instigated within 6 months of the commission of the offence. They are instigated when a Written Charge and SJPN are issued.
You initially claimed to have received the NIP on 26/11/2023. Now that is the date of the speeding offence. The s. 172 offence would have been committed 27 days after the date of service of the NIP.
But considering the offence was 26/11/2023, 28 days later would still be in december. The SJPN issue date is 22/06/2024 which is longer than 6 months, so surely based on that both charges have timed out?
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Just for clarity and to get round this use of 'we' for all what has happened.
The first NIP was issued in your dad's name and he responded naming you as the driver?
Did you receive your own form to complete?
You cannot do the deal to accept the speeding charge. To do so would on the surface look like an attempt to PCOJ. So as it stands you could attempt to defend the FTF charge on the basis of all due diligence exercised at the time failed to reveal the driver. However eventually naming a driver 2 months later who had previously named you doesn't look good.
The car is registered in my name, i received the NIP.
Although all letters are sent from my Dad on my behalf, and i myself never responded even though i am the registered keeper. He was going back and forth with the police at the time. I understand i should have replied and i left it to him which is irresponsible but i thought he would handle it.
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Proceedings have to be instigated within 6 months of the commission of the offence. They are instigated when a Written Charge and SJPN are issued.
You initially claimed to have received the NIP on 26/11/2023. Now that is the date of the speeding offence. The s. 172 offence would have been committed 27 days after the date of service of the NIP.
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Just for clarity and to get round this use of 'we' for all what has happened.
The first NIP was issued in your dad's name and he responded naming you as the driver?
Did you receive your own form to complete?
You cannot do the deal to accept the speeding charge. To do so would on the surface look like an attempt to PCOJ. So as it stands you could attempt to defend the FTF charge on the basis of all due diligence exercised at the time failed to reveal the driver. However eventually naming a driver 2 months later who had previously named you doesn't look good.
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I understand, it’s too late to ID the driver. But surely they wouldn’t have even started the charge for speeding if it was 6 months ago?
Does the same Failure to ID charge not have to be prosecuted within 6 months also?
considering the offence was 26/11/2023, and i only received the single justice procedure on 22/06/2024 is that not too late also? But they have 100% took us to court for both offences which surely both should be timed out?
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Are the bank statements or work emails insured to drive the car?
You understand that it's now too late to prosecute you Dad for speeding, but you're still asking if they'll let you off for not naming the driver if you do so 8+ months after the offence?
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I understand he’s thrown me under the bus here, and i can’t really say he’s done that as he will get done for much worse. But i was hoping there would be an option where i can nominate him as the driver in court and get him to plead guilty for speeding for that charge, and they drop the Failure to ID charge.
Simply not feasible, while 'possible' (outside of the legal framework and so highly irregular and no more than 1% chance of success anyway) it would involve the risk of him having to admit the possible perverting offence and would be rather a high risk strategy.
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Thanks for your replies here, just to clarify - we checked bank statements, text messages, work emails to try and figure out who the driver was at the time.
At that current time, we had no reason to ask my Mother as she doesn’t even have a license so wasn’t anything to do with the 3 of us in that situation.
Bank transactions shown nothing on that day as cash must have been used, and no text messages took place between the time of offence. My mother remembers after we asked her after the 28 days, due to the fact she remembered him going to get food at that time, due to it being in the fridge after a month and she remembered, seems very coincidentally i know but that’s the honest truth. Just to add, i did send the police emails around 2 months ago when i received the Single justice procedure stating my dad was the driver, but they did say it was in the courts hands to deal with now.
I understand he’s thrown me under the bus here, and i can’t really say he’s done that as he will get done for much worse. But i was hoping there would be an option where i can nominate him as the driver in court and get him to plead guilty for speeding for that charge, and they drop the Failure to ID charge. Is this a possibility potentially? They have definitely issued the charge for speeding, so i don’t believe it is timed out. Is it a possibility they will just take the prosecution for speeding on him and drop the failure to ID?
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His mother wasn't one of the possible drivers because she's not insured to drive it., which is why he didn't ask her if she had any idea who was driving. Do try to keep up Roy.
All correct,....
so begs the question, how did she suddenly "remembered my dad was driving at that point"?? ie at the time of the speeding offence.
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But considering i wasn’t the one driving, i can’t really make a plea deal for the section 172 offence and i don’t have a defence for that?
That's correct. (Deal inserted as that's the only way your question makes sense)
Referencing a previous comment, your Dad has thrown you under the bus here. Not only could you have named the driver using reasonable diligence, but you appear to have exercised the bare minimum of diligence (and far below reasonable IMO based on what you have told us) and even left it to one of the possible drivers to reply on your behalf.
he said he knew what he was doing
Hopefully he didn't as that would make the situation you are now in much worse (deliberate act as opposed to a reckless one) in terms of it's impact on you.
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Just to add to the above also, we responded to the NIP, asked for pictures, they were unclear.
Stated we would try our best to find out who the driver was at the time.
I also have emails with the police from 2 months ago, after i received the Single justice procedure asking if they had received my letter which they stated they hadn’t, but i do have emails from 2 months ago stating i had sent it, so it’s not as if it’s just a defence i’ve made up recently trying to get out of it etc.
All 3 drivers on the policy have 0 points, and all would have been offered a course, including myself who holds a full license, not the new driver one within 2 years, so we had no reason to lie about the driver, we just genuinely didn’t want to give false information.
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Hi All,
Just to add to the replies, i am the registered keeper, not my dad.
He was just responding on my behalf, i know it’s my responsibility to respond, but he said he knew what he was doing so i left it to him, the letters even have his name on.
I do want to avoid throwing my dad under the bus for perverting the course of justice even though that is what he did.
But considering i wasn’t the one driving, i can’t really make a plea for the section 172 offence and i don’t have a defence for that?
We did respond to it, well not me. But my Dad did, with letters signed for by him. And we did actually check bank statements/texts etc. The only thing we didn’t do is ask my mother, but at the time i believe we had no reason to since she wasn’t one of the 3 drivers on the policy and she doesn’t even have a license so didn’t even give it a thought, which i know in hindsight i should have, but it’s too late for that. The letters were addressed to me, but it’s my dad who responded to them, not me.
I guess the whole conviction would revolve around as to if they think not asking my mother in regards to the whole incident is not having due diligence?
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His mother wasn't one of the possible drivers because she's not insured to drive it., which is why he didn't ask her if she had any idea who was driving. Do try to keep up Roy.
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I'm a bit baffled by this. In the first post "I" received a s172 letter. 'We" replied. Is "I" the registered keeper or is "we"one of the family, the registered keeper? Your father maybe? that is what you seem to hint at further down the page. I don't see how the OP can be charged with failure to furnish information if his father is the registered keeper. "We" should not be answering the letters, it is the job of the registered keeper.
Also, the mother who apparently wasn't in the car at the time of the speeding, remembers the father using the car at that time.Hmmm...
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I would suggest that whether the OP wrote the letter that was sent late (and seemingly lost in the post), or whether his Dad did is essentially immaterial.
If your point is that the OP, whether personally, or through an agent, failed to provide such information as was in his power to give and that might have lead to the identification of the driver - in other words did not provide any meaningful information whatsoever during the 28 days, and therefore would be unable to avail himself of the statutory defences, then I would suggest that that would depend on what if any information was provided with the request for photos, or otherwise within the 28 days.
I am far from convinced that the OP would have a defence if he threw his Dad under the bus for perverting. He might want to throw him under the bus anyway, or he might want to avoid throwing him under the bus.
If he wants to avoid throwing his Dad under the bus, I would suggest that defending the charge and telling the whole truth under oath might be problematic.
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So you never responded to the s 172 notice?
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In all honesty, my father admitted after the fact he knew all along, the letters we responded to the NIP with were in his name not mine, i genuinely had no idea it was me.
I understand if he owns up to lying he will most likely get done for perverting the course of justice, but i was wondering if there was any better way to go about it?
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As regards trying to do a deal, the consensus here is that pleading guilty to an offence that you know you did not commit in order to avoid a harsher punishment for something that you did do is perverting the course of justice.
That leaves the choice of trying to defend the s. 172 charge, or pleading guilty to it.
If you plead guilty, you should expect 6 points (endorsement code MS90), a fine of 1.5 weeks' relevant weekly income (minus whatever discount is left of the 1/3 for an early guilty plea), 40% surcharge of the fine, and ~£95 prosecution costs.
If you maintain your not guilty plea and lose, you would lose whatever discount you might have got for a guilty plea and prosecution costs would be likely to be ~£620.
If you win, no points, no fine, no surcharge, no prosecution costs, and you get to claim your expenses (mostly just travel costs).
There is a defence to providing the information late if you can persuade the court that it was not reasonably practicable to provide the information any sooner (or at all). There is also a defence of not knowing who was driving and not being able to determine who it was with reasonable diligence.
Whilst I am not aware of any case law on the narrow point, I would strongly suggest that the reasonable practicability includes exercising reasonable diligence, so as SP has mentioned, it seems to all boil down to the question of whether asking your Mum if she knew anything substantially before she let slip that it was your Dad would have exceeded "reasonable diligence". I would further suggest that whilst SP is technically absolutely correct, absent the most contrived of circumstances that is not a question that most benches would struggle to answer immediately.
As has been said, the speeding charge has no legs.
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You have been charged with speeding, so you could absolutely take it, except it seems you weren’t driving.
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Thanks for your reply, and i understand about the 6 months having passed. Although from what i see from a bunch of other forums, if you plead guilty to speeding they will drop the failure to ID.
I assume we cannot take the speeding charge, so the only option is to defend the Failure to ID charge?
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A speeding offence can’t be prosecuted after 6 months have passed, so your father won’t be prosecuted. A couple of key issues seem to come out:
1. Whether your letter was received.
2. Whether not asking your mother means that you failed to exercise reasonable diligence.
The person keeping the vehicle (which I assume is you) has a defence if they can show that they didn’t know who the driver was and could not find out after exercising reasonable diligence.
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Failure to ID Driver and speeding
Hi,
So, i’m very inexperienced in this situation, and looking for some advice.
Basically 26/11/2023, i received an NIP for speeding 36mph in 30 in england. We replied to the NIP asking for pictures and it still wasn’t clear who the driver was, which there were 3 people at the time on the insurance so it could have been any of us. At the time we checked bank records, any potential emails and texts to see if we could figure out who the driver was to no luck.
a couple months later (after the 28 day NIP response time) we figured out who the driver was, being my father and he will admit to the speeding, with my Mother stating that she remembers him using the car at that point. Initially, we had no reason to ask her as she was not a named driver on my car, it was only me, my dad and my sister. So didn’t have too much reason to ask her.
After this point, i sent a letter of the police owning up to my father admitting he was driving and will happily provide a statement.
21/06/2024, i have now got another letter - single justice procedure asking to plead guilty or not guilty to both charges, which i plead not guilty to, seems like they didn’t receive my letter of admitting it was my dad, but i had heard nothing for months so assumed it was dealt with.
As of today, i have now got a hearing for August 8th on my case, my dad is still willing and happy to admit he was the driver at the time of the alleged offence, so the speeding charge should be fine and that will be him prosecuted for that. Although, the failure to ID charge, will this be dropped or how can i go about this?
*Edit* Just to add, all 3 drivers have 0 points and would have been offered a course on this, i understand speeding is wrong regardless, but we had no reason to hide/not identify the driver on purpose since it would have been a lesser punishment. It also says it’s a hearing before a full magistrate’s court if that makes it any different?