Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: psychochild187 on July 24, 2024, 01:08:40 pm
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ok, so are you saying the letter makes no sense if it says 0mph?
No, that's not what I said.
I said it's normal for it to read 0mph when it's not a speeding allegation, whatever the speed of the vehicle was (it's not calculated to a speed, the photos just show it's moving)
BUT that is the vehicle was truly doing 0mph (it almost certainly wasn't) then no crime could have been committed (but almost certainly was).
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blimey how fast was the bus going :o
0mph according to the camera
No, what you have confused is the police not entering any speed on a red light NIP.
If it was doing 0mph then no offence of crossING the line could be proven as it wouldn’t be moving.
ok, so are you saying the letter makes no sense if it says 0mph?
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What you're missing is the fact that in a cycle box there are 2 stop lines, one level or nearly level with the traffic lights which is where all traffic had to stop before the cycle box was painted and was here the traffic light amber and red timings were taken from.
The second stop line forming the cycle box is then painted some distance from the original stop line, but the traffic light amber and rad phases have not been measured from there, thereby reducing the braking distance. Unless you have driven a bus you wouldn't notice the difference in the reduction in stopping distance. How big is the typical cycle box, is there a standard for it in TSRGD? If so there should be an edict to alter the traffic light phasing.
If I were in that situation I would cite this as mitigating circumstances. It has happened to me loads of times but so far haven't been nicked for it. My passengers safety and comfort is more important than not stopping in a cycle box.
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blimey how fast was the bus going :o
0mph according to the camera
No, what you have confused is the police not entering any speed on a red light NIP.
If it was doing 0mph then no offence of crossING the line could be proven as it wouldn’t be moving.
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blimey how fast was the bus going :o
0mph according to the camera
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As a bus driver of some 51 years, it is almost impossible to stop a fully laden bus when the lights change suddenly, especially when standing passengers are taken into account. The risk of injury is considerable.
i appreciate your reply and to know that they used to take into consideration is helpful , i feel a lot of people dont get what stopping a bus takes when some times the brakes work and some times they dont, and each one you drive behaves different. some are sharp and you stop early and some dont do much then kick in, others work fine then let go of the gear at slow speed and you have to press real hard quickly. its a guessing game. all i wanted to do was not upset my passengers
others on here, telling me i am argumentative is not helpful, i want to know the history of occasions similar to myself if possible.
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Just stop (this pointless discussion and the vehicle).
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I put it to you that if the stop line is moved back by say 5 metres to make a "bike box" but the traffic lights have not been moved, the stopping distance has been shortened by 5 metres unless the traffic light "amber" phase has been amended to take this into account. While this may not affect stopping in a car it certainly does in a bus weighing up to 18 tonnes.
Roy, that makes no sense. When the light turns amber, you have 3 seconds in which to stop. The position of the light source makes no difference to the timing of the lights.
sorry that's just wrong. Roy is correct.
For arguments sake, let's imagine the new line is moved 100m back up the road. when the lights turn amber you could be at, approaching or past the line.
so either the timing has to be changed to reflect the distance or the lights need to be moved to the new line.
back on topic, I suggest the OP might argue that stopping, albeit over the line, due to the safety of the passengers was a better option than continuing across the junction which MAY have had the possibility or resulting in an accident.
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I put it to you that if the stop line is moved back by say 5 metres to make a "bike box" but the traffic lights have not been moved, the stopping distance has been shortened by 5 metres unless the traffic light "amber" phase has been amended to take this into account. While this may not affect stopping in a car it certainly does in a bus weighing up to 18 tonnes.
Roy, that makes no sense. When the light turns amber, you have 3 seconds in which to stop. The position of the light source makes no difference to the timing of the lights.
However, note the following from the Highway Code (Rule 178): "If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you should stop as soon as possible and MUST stop at the second white line." That suggests that only the second line is monitored and that your concerns are unfounded.
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I put it to you that if the stop line is moved back by say 5 metres to make a "bike box" but the traffic lights have not been moved, the stopping distance has been shortened by 5 metres unless the traffic light "amber" phase has been amended to take this into account. While this may not affect stopping in a car it certainly does in a bus weighing up to 18 tonnes.
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blimey how fast was the bus going :o
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It appears that these additional "bike box" line have been installed and the traffic lights have not been altered to take into account the shorter stopping distances
No the stopping distance hasn't shortened at all! You still have the distance available in the 3s amber period to the relevant stop line and the option to continue if unsafe to stop (as long as you pass on amber of course). You wouldn't clam the distance had decreased if they had merely moved the stop line.
surely the stopping distance would only be the same if the lights were moved up to the new stop line.
Indeed, if the lights were moved forward by about 4 metres the change of lights would then become visible slightly earlier.
But, since the speed of light is 300,000,000 metres per second, I think we can agree that the difference would be negligible.
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Only if the stop line were visible before the lights, otherwise their relative position is irrelevant. You have the distance based on your speed and the 3 seconds of Amber to the stop line. From 30mph that needs about a 1/8th G stop.
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It appears that these additional "bike box" line have been installed and the traffic lights have not been altered to take into account the shorter stopping distances
No the stopping distance hasn't shortened at all! You still have the distance available in the 3s amber period to the relevant stop line and the option to continue if unsafe to stop (as long as you pass on amber of course). You wouldn't clam the distance had decreased if they had merely moved the stop line.
surely the stopping distance would only be the same if the lights were moved up to the new stop line.
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It appears that these additional "bike box" line have been installed and the traffic lights have not been altered to take into account the shorter stopping distances
No the stopping distance hasn't shortened at all! You still have the distance available in the 3s amber period to the relevant stop line and the option to continue if unsafe to stop (as long as you pass on amber of course). You wouldn't clam the distance had decreased if they had merely moved the stop line.
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As a bus driver of some 51 years, it is almost impossible to stop a fully laden bus when the lights change suddenly, especially when standing passengers are taken into account. The risk of injury is considerable. When such cases are taken to court, the magistrates used to take this into account. It's been a talking point at a couple of driver CPC courses I've been on.
It appears that these additional "bike box" line have been installed and the traffic lights have not been altered to take into account the shorter stopping distances from the yellow light being shown. There's also a time lag between taking the foot off the gas, going onto the brake and pressing it, then waiting for the air to flow through to th brake cylinders to apply the brakes, something that is unnoticeable in a car. I don't believe any of this has been taken into account
Does your bus have CCTV? Are you in the Union? If so the union rep could possibly provide some information and advice on this.
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why not ? if its red for 5 mins why would you expect it to be only green for 10 seconds?
Surely a careful and competent driver doesn’t rely on ‘expect’ but observations?
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why not ? if its red for 5 mins why would you expect it to be only green for 10 seconds?
Are you just here to argue with people who don’t tell you what you want to hear?
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why not ? if its red for 5 mins why would you expect it to be only green for 10 seconds?
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i feel its unfair for lights to go green and change back again so fast stitching me up. i only wish to know how to contest it , what route i may need to take
i have had lights change so fast recently i have not managed to pull away through them before they went back to red. this cant be right either
As above, if the lights weren't amber for 3 seconds (+/- 0.25s) then they are defective and that would give a defence.
However there is no defence available if the light controller (be that pre-set timing or a computer controlled system adjusting for traffic flows) decides to only set the lights green for a short period (or probably more relevantly shorter than you expect) period of time.
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i understand the law on this one before it was said to me but i am looking for a way out of it. i feel its unfair for lights to go green and change back again so fast stitching me up. i only wish to know how to contest it , what route i may need to take
Didn't the lights change to amber before red? That should show for 3 seconds.
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i understand the law on this one before it was said to me but i am looking for a way out of it. i feel its unfair for lights to go green and change back again so fast stitching me up. i only wish to know how to contest it , what route i may need to take
i have had lights change so fast recently i have not managed to pull away through them before they went back to red. this cant be right either
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but with your own words . "hard to impossible". law or not there should be some give with certain circumstances.
We deal with what the law is, not what you (or anyone else) think it should be.
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but with your own words . "hard to impossible". law or not there should be some give with certain circumstances.
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It’s not ‘ending up in the box’ that is an offence, it’s crossing the stop line on red as I explained (I thought). There is no offence of stopping in the box.
So if you could have carried on and crossed both lines fully by the time the light went red then yes you would have been fine, if not you wouldn’t.
So that’s a static camera, the sensor lines are triggered as you cross the advanced stop line.
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https://maps.app.goo.gl/NQeD4qWz2cHSxWLw7
a270 west bound into brighton .
i understand the law is black and white. but if i can just carryied on going i would have been fine . but because i attempted to stop i ended up in the box .
but with regard to appeals and mitigating circumstances is that a possibility to find a way to point out with passengers and the fact i watched the lights go green and didnt expect them to switch back so fast, that i have any chance of an appeal. obviously this is my job and my own licence. just looking out for passenger comfort was my main aim
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If the light was red you must not (under any circumstances) cross the advanced stop line (any part of the vehicle) into the 'cycle box'.
If the light was amber and you crossed the advanced stop line into the 'cycle box' you would have a defence if you can show it was unsafe to stop before the line.
Basically the advanced stop line in law is the same as the main stop line.
I do recognise that with slow moving large vehicles this can make the situation hard (to impossible) but that is the law as it.
If this was detected by a static camera it is all but certain the allegation is true and that you breached the stop line with the lights red, if it's a report from a member of the public there may be discrepancies in the allegation. When you have the paperwork in your name you can always request 'a copy of photos to help confirm the driver's ID' or similar (avoiding asking for 'evidence') and see what it shows.
If you know the EXACT location please share it or a Google street view link and/or check for a static camera.
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hello everyone, i am glad to find this site after pepipoo was not working.
i tried searching but not much cam up for what i need advice on ,
i had a call just now about a NIP from a day i was driving a double decker bus and i stopped over the line into the cycle box,
it was a 30 zone in brighton and with a whole school of kids the lights i watch go green and thought great and before i knew it they switched to red, they must be smart lights , but i could have stopped . but i did my best to not have everyone off thier seats. i ended up in the cycle box, 3 lanes wide , no car behind or infront or bikes or anything. just me with my bus a good chunk into the cycle box.
does anyone know where large vehicles stand in scenarios like this . i didnt want teachers and kids falling over
i am yet to get the paperwork through in my name