Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Speeding and other criminal offences => Topic started by: Hussnainh8 on July 20, 2024, 12:16:47 am
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I have never been to court before and so I feel like my nerves will get the best of me when I'm standing there that's all. That's why I was in 2 minds to maybe just let the lawyer deal with it all but at the same time I don't have money to spend like that 😔
Thank you for the help guys.
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But you are not blindfolded, you were there and know you weren't using the phone.
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Ah okay my lawyer has said he should be able to request the evidence from them and check it for me what they have against me and go from there but I just thought if I could check the evidence myself then I could deal with it myself but without the evidence I would be going in blindfolded.
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How can I request for evidence the cps will use to hold against me? It says on the officers statement there is a body worn video given as evidence so how would I be able to see this footage?
Thanks.
You can request it from the prosecution, if they decline you apply to the court to make them provide it (it may need a hearing) and the court decides whether it should be provided or not.
Generally you won’t get anything other than the initial evidence (you have now) until after your not guilty plea has been formally entered at the first court hearing.
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How can I request for evidence the cps will use to hold against me? It says on the officers statement there is a body worn video given as evidence so how would I be able to see this footage?
Thanks.
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The intention behind "or must be", is clearly to cover potential situations where the driver caught driving whist using a device while not currently holding it, but must have been holding it and using it while driving at some point - much like not being in a position to be in proper control in cases where the driver could not have been in proper control but where swerving, etc. were not witnessed due to the road being straight at that point.
How many devices cannot be operated by voice control, or by touch screen without holding whilst in a cradle?
Taking the argument to its logical conclusion, if a driver initiates a call before he enters the car in a private car park, automatically connects to the car's bluetooth and then locks the phone in the boot before driving onto a public road whilst continuing the call, is this behaviour that Parliament intended to criminalise (ignoring the dangers of distraction from non-hand held calls, which is not specifically addressed)?
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Whilst driving on the door panel to the right and when stopped I moved it to the passenger seat so I could roll the window down to talk to the officer walking towards me.
No doubt your solicitor will advise you but you need to get this straight.
The law saws nothing about “holding” or “touching” a phone. It simply says you must not “use” a hand-held device whilst driving. It goes on to provide a non-exhaustive list of actions which are considered “using”. What it does do is sets out a definition of a hand-held device, which is this:
“a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function;”
So is your phone entirely hands free? Or does it have to be held at some point to carry out all its functions?
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Whilst driving on the door panel to the right and when stopped I moved it to the passenger seat so I could roll the window down to talk to the officer walking towards me.
'On the door panel'? That seems a strange place to put it, and not very secure. Almost incredible.
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The phone yes a text was sent through my phone I get that but it was literally done using Google assistant and I did not need to touch my phone to do it as its all voice commanded. The phone was already unlocked with satnav on and phone was on door panel to the right. The officer could have easily mistaken that with me holding the phone in my hand so unless they can show a picture or video of me using the phone why would I plead guilty for it.
In your OP the phone was on the passenger seat. Which version is true?
Whilst driving on the door panel to the right and when stopped I moved it to the passenger seat so I could roll the window down to talk to the officer walking towards me.
Really?
What you told us originally was "The phone was on the passenger seat with the background light lit up as the satnav app was open and the Bluetooth plugged into the stereo so I could hear the directions through the cars speakers. Did not have a phone holder, I normally take one with me when collecting the cars and sometimes I do end up forgetting to take it with me so the phone had to sit on the seat for the journey."
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The phone yes a text was sent through my phone I get that but it was literally done using Google assistant and I did not need to touch my phone to do it as its all voice commanded. The phone was already unlocked with satnav on and phone was on door panel to the right. The officer could have easily mistaken that with me holding the phone in my hand so unless they can show a picture or video of me using the phone why would I plead guilty for it.
In your OP the phone was on the passenger seat. Which version is true?
Whilst driving on the door panel to the right and when stopped I moved it to the passenger seat so I could roll the window down to talk to the officer walking towards me.
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....but last time I checked life didn't work on he said she said stories).
It does in court, every day of the year. That's one of the main functions of the court - to establish whether he told the truth or she did.
Anyway, you have a solicitor and you should follow the advice given otherwise you are wasting your money (bearing in mind the solicitor gets paid whether you are found guilty or not).
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The phone yes a text was sent through my phone I get that but it was literally done using Google assistant and I did not need to touch my phone to do it as its all voice commanded. The phone was already unlocked with satnav on and phone was on door panel to the right. The officer could have easily mistaken that with me holding the phone in my hand so unless they can show a picture or video of me using the phone why would I plead guilty for it.
In your OP the phone was on the passenger seat. Which version is true?
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if they recorded bodycam footage
Body cam footage from someone sitting in a car and looking sideways at you is unlikely to record anything but the dashboard I’d suggest. What do you think it could show that would help?
Don’t forget a solicitor gets paid (by you) whatever the result (heads they win, tails you lose), they will also cost you a similar amount to the fine and you probably won’t get it all back IF you win unless they are only charging the permitted rates.
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(yes the officers statement is against me but last time I checked life didn't work on he said she said stories).
Rubbish. Plenty of people are convicted based on the word of a single witness. I’ve seen it a number of times myself.
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Why would I plead guilty before knowing what evidence there is against me....
But we've established that you already have the evidence that the police intend to rely on to convict you. It's provided precisely so that you can decide on your plea. You are unlikely to get much - if anything else. What else you you think they have that might either undermine their case or assist yours?
My lawyer told me he would put a request for evidence in as he believes if they recorded bodycam footage then it should be part of the evidence and possibly any other evidence they may have (possible a camera footage of my car swerving)? And then going by the evidence we can decide if it's better to just give up and plead guilty or fight it. I thought it was the logical thing to do as well so therefore pleading not guilty for both offenses until we have seen (if there's any) any evidence and if there is no other evidence and it's my word against his then realistically someone could have easily been mistaken at any time... After all it was dark at night, very hard to see as it is especially out the side with limo black tints and doing speeds of 60mph.
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You say you were driving slower than you should in lane 3, and they were in lane 4
Was there anything in lane 1 and 2?
If not, this may have contributed to their taking an interest in your driving and may contribute to the "without due care" (note - it's not "with undue care")
If there was, did they have take any avoiding action when you swerved?
Yes cars in lane 1 and 2 as I remember when the unmarked police car was behind me I had to over take a lorry in the 3rd lane. In lane 3 they described me as driving "much slower" but I was doing minimum 60mph. The reason they took interest in my car was Purely because it was a blacked out tinted vw jetta which just looked like a "dodgy dealer" car. In their eyes they probably saw it and thought jackpot! Then when they pulled me over and realised I had the insurance tax etc sorted there wasn't much to knick me for so took their chances on these 2 offenses instead.
That's why I would like to atleast see some picture or video (body cam footage), maybe even a camera attached to the front of their vehicle to show me swerve as the officer states I swerved before he approached me and I say I swerved only when they where to the side of me. I guess in the eye of the court a swerve is a swerve at the end of the day but the officer should atleast get his story right then shouldn't he?
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Why would I plead guilty before knowing what evidence there is against me.
If you know/knew you were guilty then it's a gamble to take it to court in the hope they can't prove it, most people do know if they are guilty or not and aim to minimise the financial impact of their offence.
I understand but as much as they have given me these offences I feel as if I wasn't guilty as YES I twitched and swerved a little but it was only as they where in lane 4 next to me matching speeds at around 65mph staring at me at 8.30pm at night so yes I did panick a little and get scared as its not normal behaviour for someone to just drive next to you for no reason. I feel like it was more provoked than my doing but that I guess I will leave to the judge to decide if I'm guilty for doing it or not (In the possible chance they may understand where im coming from and possibly reduce the penalty to just a fine rather than points too)
The phone yes a text was sent through my phone I get that but it was literally done using Google assistant and I did not need to touch my phone to do it as its all voice commanded. The phone was already unlocked with satnav on and phone was on door panel to the right. The officer could have easily mistaken that with me holding the phone in my hand so unless they can show a picture or video of me using the phone why would I plead guilty for it.
The lawyer I went to said if they have photographic or video evidence then they should show it to me which is normally on a disc etc. I have sent the sjpn back so I'm waiting to hear from them again and possibly to see the evidence against me (yes the officers statement is against me but last time I checked life didn't work on he said she said stories).
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You say you were driving slower than you should in lane 3, and they were in lane 4
Was there anything in lane 1 and 2?
If not, this may have contributed to their taking an interest in your driving and may contribute to the "without due care" (note - it's not "with undue care")
If there was, did they have take any avoiding action when you swerved?
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Why would I plead guilty before knowing what evidence there is against me....
But we've established that you already have the evidence that the police intend to rely on to convict you. It's provided precisely so that you can decide on your plea. You are unlikely to get much - if anything else. What else you you think they have that might either undermine their case or assist yours?
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Why would I plead guilty before knowing what evidence there is against me.
If you know/knew you were guilty then it's a gamble to take it to court in the hope they can't prove it, most people do know if they are guilty or not and aim to minimise the financial impact of their offence.
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Yes that's all sound to me.. Just one of them things.. Why would I plead guilty before knowing what evidence there is against me. Better of atleast knowing what evidence there is then going guilty or not guilty.
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He did say you can plead guilty at any time later in the process
This is true, but hopefully he also told you that the further into the process you go the smaller the discount will be off the fine? Also as the surcharge is a percentage (40%) of the fine that will increase as well.
33% discount now, 25% after the first hearing (which will be the single justice 'hearing' you can't attend) and 10% after trial starts. Also that prosecution costs will increase up to over £600 (if found or plead guilty) if the trial starts.
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Hello guys
So after speaking with my solicitor he's adviced me to plead not guilty for both offenses and then wait for the evidence they may have first (if any). Only then we can know where to go from their. He did say you can plead guilty at any time later in the process but won't be able to plead not guilty so i thought that would be the best option for now. So waiting on evidence and go from there.
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You will have received the evidence that the prosecution intend to use, i.e. the officer’s statement. The prosecution isn’t obliged to disclose evidence to you, at this stage, that they do not intend to use; neither are they obliged to use any body cam evidence etc.
If you plead not guilty, the prosecution will review the evidence and will disclose to you anything that they intend to use, that undermines the prosecution case, or which supports your defence (assuming you’ve told them what it is). What other evidence there is that matches those criteria, who knows?
If you want anything else, you can ask for it but the prosecution don’t have to give it to you. In that case, you would have to convince the court that it ought to be given to you and make an application for a court order.
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Something such as saw debris in the road or avoiding a pothole etc?
Given that neither of those things are true based on what you told us before, no.
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Are there any exceptions for the swerving offence? Something such as saw debris in the road or avoiding a pothole etc?
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It's been 4 months since the stop and the car is sold as well as the phone lcd broke so I bought a new one. If I had the car I could have taken pictures to show the tints front and back and it would be obvious that you can't see through the car in the dark especially at 70mph. If I had the phone I could have showed the Google assistant history but the phone's broken as well and not sure if it will go back 4 months from now.
The single justice procedure has a copy of the officer statement and I remember he had a body cam on and was recording a video as well except there's no video evidence to show anything.
I didn't realise the statement was evidence so the statement is the only evidence I have received. At this time it just seems like a he said she said type of scenario.
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Okay that's fine... I will get the. Solicitor to check it all out and see what he thinks.
Have you already engaged a solicitor to deal with this?
I'm also a bit confused about the evidence. You said this:
I haven't got any of the evidence they may have so can't see what they are relying on?
And this:
Is the evidence supposed to be shown to me with the single justice procedure notice as I haven't got any of the evidence they may have so can't see what they are relying on?
But prior to that you said this:
Just to clarify the exact wording of the officers statement reads...
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Is there any way you can establish from your phone that the text was sent via voice command. It might be in your Google assistant history. That could help.
Of course there are many other things you could have also been doing with your phone.
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Okay that's fine... I will get the. Solicitor to check it all out and see what he thinks. 1 and 2 lanes had cars in them.. 3 and 4 where near empty.
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I wanted to be clear on if court can prove me as guilty just based on what the officer/s has to say or do they require actual evidence of claims made against me. Such as a picture of my car wheels in the 4th lane or a picture of me holding my phone whilst driving.
The officers' statements ARE evidence, as is anything you choose to say. The court has to decide which evidence is more credible.
BTW the careless driving may not just be about swerving, but also driving in lane 3 if lanes 1 and 2 were free.
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Without officers having proof of me on the phone how likely are the courts to believe my story the text was sent handsfree or would they just go by what the officer says?
Im also not sure if to plead guilty or not gluity for careless driving as the only reason I swerved a little was because they came up alongside me matching speeds etc and I got frightened as it's not normal for someone to just come alongside you on a motorway. I wouldn't want any points for that as well ideally but if I have to take the hit on something then yes I rather agree to swerving because end of the day I did swerve out of getting scared.
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Thank you for reply, I will call police on Monday to get the evidence they may have against me first and I'm aware of the exceptional hardship but still feel like having to show 12 points on a insurance will make the prices through the roof so I may still not be able to get insured at all and I rely on the car for work as well as have motor trade insurance which is all for work so it wouldn't be possible to get insured again through motor trade if I was given 12 points to declare.
I wanted to be clear on if court can prove me as guilty just based on what the officer/s has to say or do they require actual evidence of claims made against me. Such as a picture of my car wheels in the 4th lane or a picture of me holding my phone whilst driving.
Also how likely is a court to believe my story that yes the text was sent before getting stopped but the text was sent using hands free feature rather than me physically sending it myself whilst driving and that the swerving into other lane wasn't because of sending a text hands free it was because the unmarked car came up along side me at 70mph which I panicked as I was looking wondering why this car has just pulled along side me.
And the only reason I didn't admit or deny at the time of being stopped me handling the phone was I was in a state of shock as all kinds of claims where being thrown at me so I was just sat there confused where to start. There was even a point his colleague came saying "shall we do a search on him?" as they assumed I may even have been hiding something illegal! Granted the car looked the part with its blacked out windows and dark grey paintwork but I mean they could have easily done me for the tints and said they are illegal (which I would have accepted a fine for as I bought the car from auction like that) rather than accusing me of the phone which he saw me using at 70mph in the dark around 8.20pm in my right hand with the front windows blacked out. I'm also dark skinned so there's no chance he could have seen my hands on my phone in those conditions.
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Sorry I hadn't noticed you have an SJPN.
Yes, the evidence should be served along with that notice. If it has not, contact the police.
In the event you are convicted of both offences you will not get points for both of them. You will only get points for the most serious, which in your case will almost certainly be the mobile phone offence (from your description, you are unlikely to see more than six points imposed for careless driving). This of course will still see you facing a "totting up" ban" so the only way to avoid that is to avoid conviction for the phone charge.
You should be aware of the potential cost of failure. You will face an income related fine of half a week's net income for each offence. You will also pay a surcharge of 40% of the total fines. The court may reduce this a little since the offences were committed at the same time, but you cannot depend on it. The prosecution will ask for costs which will be around £650. So if you have an income of £500 per week you are looking at a total of around £1,350.
You need the evidence before you can decide whether either charge is worth challenging.
Are you aware that you can avoid a "totting up" ban if you can convince the court that you or others will suffer "exceptional hardship" if you are disqualified?
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I tried going through the online plea but it doesn't show any evidence they may have. The system asks me if I'm pleading guilty or not guilty straight away and doesn't show any evidence before I make the plea.. Do I have to call the office for the evidence or?
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Is the evidence supposed to be shown to me with the single justice procedure notice as I haven't got any of the evidence they may have so can't see what they are relying on?
I would rather fight it as I'm already at 6 points so even if I receive fixed penalty I'm looking easy 3 points on careless driving and 6 points for mobile phone use so that would put me at 15 points which I would be banned for so if there's a chance to fight I rather take it.
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At the absolute worst case if I have to accept 1 of the offences I would accept careless driving...
You don't get the choice to "decline" the offences (other than by pleading Not Guilty in court). If the police persist with both allegations they are unlikely to offer you fixed penalties and that means you will be prosecuted in court anyway. Before you enter a plea you should be served with the evidence the police intend to rely on to convict you. You can then see what the officers' statements say and decide on your pleas.
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The court will either believe the officer(s) or believe you. Nobody here can say which way they’ll go.
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Just to clarify the exact wording of the officers statement reads they where driving in lane 4 of 4 whilst I was in lane 3 of 4 and I was doing a slower speed than I should have been doing and then as they came up to the rear of my car I swerved which the officer driving had to brake to avoid collision and then when they came up along side me the officer in passenger saw a mobile phone in my right hand sending a text.
After stopping me he saw the phone on the passenger seat lit up with the satnav on and he asked to me show the recent messages which I did and he saw a text was sent on the phone 2 minutes before being stopped. At the time I didn't agree or deny it I stayed quite as not only was I being accused of phone use, I was also being told the car had no insurance or tax and that I drove carelessly as well as his friend shouting from behind shall we do a search on him as if I had drugs stashed up somewhere so I was just at the point thinking whatever I say won't make a difference here as they are just fully out there to get me anyway.
I just want to know how his word against mine will go about in court. Yes he saw a message on my phone that was sent before we stopped but who was to stay I actually sent it physically touching the phone unless he has a picture of me using it, it could literally have been sent using the OK Google command which all Android phones have.
I think the phone even has history for the commands so I may even have a record of the text sent using the command, could that be enough proof to show it was sent handsfree?
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Sorry for the late reply been at work, I received a single justice procedure notice, being charged for 2 offenses which are driving with undue care and attention and also using a mobile phone whilst driving.
I would like to know how likely of a chance I have to win a not guilty plea. if I was to deny the offenses. In the statement from the officer (who was driving passenger in unmarked car) he states he saw me pressing the buttons on the phone sending a text whilst driving and as he came up behind me he saw the vehicle swerve into the 4th lane with the 2 tyres going into the 4th lane and then correcting myself back into the 3rd lane.
In my defense I can admit I swerved but it was only because they where approaching me to the side of me and matching speed with me at 70mph so I panicked a little as its not normal for a car to just pull alongside you on a motorway. My phone was lit on the passenger seat as I had the satnav up and the car was fully tinted front and back so maybe the officer could have mistaken a text message for the satnav and saw the back light assuming I am using the phone. When I was stopped I did show recent messages and a text was sent 2 minutes before I was stopped however I sent that via hands free feature all connected up to the cars aftermarket stereo. So it would be a their word against mine sort of situation so I just want to know how this would go about in court. I am already on 6 points and can't afford another 6 or a ban!
At the absolute worst case if I have to accept 1 of the offences I would accept careless driving as I did swerve out of panicking and corrected myself straight away but I really don't want to go down for using a mobile phone so someone please advice me on this, desperate needs, I would be very greatful.
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OP, what have you actually received? Is it a request for driver's details, or a Single Justice Procedure Notice?
BTW you haven't been accused of "driving dangerously", just carelessly, which is much less serious.
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I understand the costs will be high.. I'm just trying to see what my chances are of being not guilty before I go ahead and do a not guilty plea. Would the court agree with there not being sufficient evidence or would it just be a 2 officers word against mine because if that will be the case then I have no chance of winning but if it goes by hard photographic evidence then I may stand a chance as I know there's no real documented evidence to show me on my phone or driving dangerously etc.
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I'm not wanting the points for phone or driving dangerously
Already on 6 points for speeding (learnt my lesson and never again) but I really can't afford another 6 for phone use as I will be on a ban then.
You have every right to enter a Not Guilty plea and defend the case at court - if you don't then you will be getting 6 points for the phone use, and will be looking at a 6 month totting ban. But you do need to be aware that the costs of a not guilty trial (if you lose) can be substantial.
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Hello guys
Could someone advice me on how likely a not guilty plea would stand in court for the following offences dated 19/03/24, letter received today 20/07/24
1) driving with undue care and attention
2) using a mobile phone whilst driving
So the story from my side of how I see things is that I was going along the motorway at night and see a car pull alongside me, I panicked a little and did swerve a little as i got a little scared as to why this car was just driving alongside me all of a sudden. I then realised it was 2 fellas in a unmarked car and I had then assumed they probably where checking the vehicle and driver etc to see if they could find anything dodgy (looked like a dodgy car.. Possible ex drugs car etc I don't know).
Now the car was a VW Jetta with blacked out windows front and back (pretty much limo black front and back) and before anyone says "your asking to get pulled over". I literally won the car at a auction 2.5 hours away from my home town as I'm a car trader and went to collect the car and drive it back. I did not know windows are tinted etc and I was fully insured with trade plates on display and mot etc all there driving the car back to my yard. Assuming it would be fine and worst case I get pulled and a slap on wrist for the tints or possible fine which at the time was fine as I wasted fuel and time getting there to collect the car in the first place.
So after they pulled along side me they then backed off and pulled into my lane tailgating me, I overtook a lorry which they followed and then they went and overtook me and turned the lights on indicating to stop.
So pulled up on the side and was asked why I thought I been stopped which I said possibly insurance purposes as the car is on trade so won't show up on the system etc. He replied "No you where driving dangerously and you where on your phone (which he insists he saw my fingers on the keypad through the blacked out windows at night from his car into mine at 70mph!) I can see the phone on your passenger seat with the satnav up and back light lit up, you where sending texts whilst driving so you can show me your recent apps and the message you where sending". His fella with him was already throwing questions "shall we do a search on him" as if I had drugs stashed up somewhere. So I was literally in a state of panic at the time and I did end up showing the message and yes a text was sent 2 minutes before which I didn't admit or deny at the time as I was all confused as all kinds of accusations where flying across at me, no Insurance, dangerous driving, no tax, searching me for god knows what and phone use.. I was just trying to process everything at the time so as they where talking I just didn't say anything. I kind of thought whatever I say won't change anything anyway as I feel I'm being picked on.
Long story short I did send a text however it was all done using the handheld "OK Google" command at the time paired up via Bluetooth to the cars after market stereo so all totally hands free. The phone was on the passenger seat with the background light lit up as the satnav app was open and the Bluetooth plugged into the stereo so I could hear the directions through the cars speakers. Did not have a phone holder, I normally take one with me when collecting the cars and sometimes I do end up forgetting to take it with me so the phone had to sit on the seat for the journey.
Now I can admit I swerved a little after seeing the car pull up along side me but that was only in the state of panic wondering what's going on why suddenly a cars next to me all dark at night couldn't see as it is which I would imagine anyone could do as it's not normal for cars to just pull up along side you at 70mph in the dark on a motorway!
So would I be able to plead not guilty for these offences is my simple question I wanted to ask. At the time it all happened I felt as if whatever I would have said to the fellas it just wouldn't have changed anything. Literally driving around at night with blacked out windows in a car that looks like a dealer would be using, I felt like I was picked on purely for the looks of the car as it looked dodgy so they thought yes let's follow that one there and at that point they where just coming to get me for whatever they could find.
I don't really know what to think of this as I'm not wanting the points for phone or driving dangerously and with there being 2 officers I guess they will both support each other's statements and I don't have a witness so my word against 2 officers. I know for certain they don't have any photographic evidence to show such as me being on the phone whilst driving (pitch black windows, dark at night so physically won't see my hands on the screen.. I also swerved whilst along side them so they won't have any video to show me swerving in that moment and I also didn't admit or deny at the time any of the offenses they brought upon me. I was just assuming I was being pulled for a car and driver check as car wouldn't be on the insurance system etc but in their eyes they saw a blacked out car with possible drugs or something dodgy going on.
Already on 6 points for speeding (learnt my lesson and never again) but I really can't afford another 6 for phone use as I will be on a ban then.