Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: marvanelli on July 19, 2024, 08:03:15 pm

Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on September 09, 2024, 10:04:06 am
Not sure.

I hadn't even put in a response to their evidence before I received the email confirming they've withdrawn the appeal.

I've just been on PE's website and they still have £100 as outstanding on my PCN. But I'm assuming that will be removed soon.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: DWMB2 on September 09, 2024, 10:00:05 am
Good result! Unusual for them to pull out after submitting their POPLA evidence. I wonder if the leisure centre intervened...
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on September 09, 2024, 09:25:12 am
Further update.

Had an email over the weekend from POPLA stating:

'The operator has contacted us and told us that they have withdrawn your appeal.

If you have already paid your parking charge, this is the reason your appeal will have been withdrawn. Unfortunately, you cannot pay your parking charge and appeal, which means that POPLA’s involvement in your appeal has ended. You will not be able to request a refund of the amount paid in order to resubmit your appeal to us.

If you have not paid your parking charge, the operator has reviewed your appeal and chosen to cancel the parking charge. As the operator has withdrawn your appeal, POPLA’s involvement has now ended and you do not need to take any further action.'

I've not paid the parking charge, so it appears they've cancelled it.

Thanks again from this forum.

Great help!
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: b789 on September 05, 2024, 03:59:53 pm
If PE have not rebutted any points you made in your appeal, you must highlight this in your response.

“I stated such and such in my appeal and the operator has fail3d to address that point…” Do you get the idea?
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on September 05, 2024, 03:14:56 pm
Unfortunately, we have no idea what you said in your POPLA appeal. Have PE countered every point in your POPLA appeal? If not, you highlight the omission in your response to the operators evidence.

Normally, a POPLA appeal will cover some, in not all, the following points:

1. Any PoFA failures to be able to hold the keeper liable.
2. No evidence that the person they are pursuing is the driver.
3. Signage failures to adequately bring the the attention of the driver the charge for breaching any terms & condition.
4. No evidence of landowner authority to issue PCNs in their own name.
5. Failure fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP).

Did you include any of those in our POPLA appeal?

Rejection of a POPLA appeal has no bearing on any future proceedings. You are not obliged to pay anything. In which case, you will have to weather a load of useless debt collector letters which you can safely ignore and wait and see if they decide to issue a claim in the small claims track of the county court.

That is usually a good thing as it is the ultimate dispute resolution service. A judge would decide whether you owe PE a debt or not. In the case of PE, they have their own internal litigation team but sometimes use DCB Legal, especially if they have a weak case.

In the worst case scenario, if you were to be unsuccessful in court, it could cost you up to ~£220. However, there is no risk of a CCJ on your credit file as long as the amount is paid within 28 days of judgment.

Of course, that is a worst case scenario. If they decide to use DCB Legal, there is a 99% chance that they will discontinue before any hearing.

I didn't include any of those points. I wish I did!

I included a copy of the email from Saltburn Leisure centre confirming I was a paying customer, which agrees with the date and times on the PCN.

PE haven't countered any of the points on my appeal. They've just mentioned I breached their T&C's, hence the issued PCN.

Do you recommend me submitting a response to PE's recently uploaded evidence, or wait for POPLA's outcome?
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: b789 on September 05, 2024, 02:44:41 pm
Unfortunately, we have no idea what you said in your POPLA appeal. Have PE countered every point in your POPLA appeal? If not, you highlight the omission in your response to the operators evidence.

Normally, a POPLA appeal will cover some, in not all, the following points:

1. Any PoFA failures to be able to hold the keeper liable.
2. No evidence that the person they are pursuing is the driver.
3. Signage failures to adequately bring the the attention of the driver the charge for breaching any terms & condition.
4. No evidence of landowner authority to issue PCNs in their own name.
5. Failure fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice (CoP).

Did you include any of those in our POPLA appeal?

Rejection of a POPLA appeal has no bearing on any future proceedings. You are not obliged to pay anything. In which case, you will have to weather a load of useless debt collector letters which you can safely ignore and wait and see if they decide to issue a claim in the small claims track of the county court.

That is usually a good thing as it is the ultimate dispute resolution service. A judge would decide whether you owe PE a debt or not. In the case of PE, they have their own internal litigation team but sometimes use DCB Legal, especially if they have a weak case.

In the worst case scenario, if you were to be unsuccessful in court, it could cost you up to ~£220. However, there is no risk of a CCJ on your credit file as long as the amount is paid within 28 days of judgment.

Of course, that is a worst case scenario. If they decide to use DCB Legal, there is a 99% chance that they will discontinue before any hearing.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on September 05, 2024, 02:31:56 pm
Yes, they rejected the initial appeal and have provided me with a POPLA code.

I've not yet appealed to POPLA using the code.

Is that my next step?

Is it just a case of providing POPLA with the same information and explanations that I included in my original appeal to PE?

Thanks

I did previously ask if that was my next step, but unfortunately I didn't get a response.

Sorry, I didn't take a copy, but I included all the evidence I had to show I was a paying customer at Saltburn Leisure Centre, at the time.

Parking Eye Ltd have now uploaded all their evidence (original letter that was emailed to me, showing the photos of my car in the car park etc) and I have up to 7 days to provide my comments on the operators (PE Ltd) evidence.

I'm not sure what comments to provide?

And if this is rejected, will it be then a case of either me paying the fine or Parking Eye Ltd taking me to court over the outstanding debt?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: b789 on August 30, 2024, 01:15:44 pm
Why didn’t you show us the POPLA appeal you intended to send? You don’t simply send the same appeal you used for your initial appeal. POPLA will only consider whether the PCN was issued correctly by the operator. They do not take into consideration any mitigation.

Usually, we will advise on a number of appeal points based on legal arguments and breaches of the BPA Code of Practice (CoP). What, if any, legal and BPA CoP points did you include in your POPLA appeal?

Hopefully you’ve included the following points in your POPLA appeal:

1) No keeper liability due to PoFA failure at 9(2)(e)(i)
2) No evidence of the person they are pursuing is the driver
3) Signage failures to comply with the BPA CoP and PoFA
4) No contractual liability due to confusing terms
5) No evidence of landowner authority to issue PCNs

If you lose the POPLA appeal, it has no bearing on any future action. It does not mean that you have pay them.

You would have to wait and see if/when they decide to take you to court to try and recover the alleged debt.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: DWMB2 on August 30, 2024, 09:48:06 am
I assume you raised the points mentioned by b789? Can you show us what you submitted?
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on August 30, 2024, 09:35:33 am
I've submitted an appeal to POPLA and included a copy of the email I received from Saltburn Leisure Centre confirming my stay and the reason for my stay.

Let's see what happens now.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on August 20, 2024, 10:22:50 pm
Yes, they rejected the initial appeal and have provided me with a POPLA code.

I've not yet appealed to POPLA using the code.

Is that my next step?

Is it just a case of providing POPLA with the same information and explanations that I included in my original appeal to PE?

Thanks
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: b789 on August 20, 2024, 10:16:26 pm
Did you already appeal to PE? If so and they rejected the appeal, they would have provided a POPLA code. You have 33:days from the appeal rejecti9n to make your POPLA appeal.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on August 20, 2024, 04:50:02 pm
Hi. They’re in the thread, couple of comments up.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: Dave65 on August 20, 2024, 04:44:02 pm
It would be useful to see the signs in the car park.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on August 20, 2024, 03:13:41 pm
Thanks again for the response.

At the moment, I've not replied to PE, nor have I been in touch with POPLA with an appeal.

What do you think is my next step? Starting an appeal with POPLA?

Sorry if it appears I'm being naïve. I've never had to go through this before, so it's all pretty new to me.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: b789 on August 17, 2024, 02:10:22 pm
Key Points of Ambiguity:

1. Parking Usage Hours:

i. The sign states, "For use by Saltburn Cricket Club patrons only between 11pm - 8am - tariffs apply outside of these times."

ii. This suggests that club patrons are only permitted to use the car park between 11pm and 8am, implying they might be prohibited from using it outside of these hours.

2. Tariffs for Club Patrons:

i. The tariffs are listed without specifying whether they apply to club patrons if they park outside the 11pm-8am window.

ii. It’s unclear if club patrons must pay the tariff if they park between 8am and 11pm.

3. Visitor Registration:

i. The sign instructs "visitors" to enter their vehicle registration number (VRM) upon arrival to obtain a permit, but it’s not clear whether this is for any parking time or just for parking outside the 11pm-8am window.

ii. The distinction between "visitors" and "patrons" is not clearly defined, adding to the confusion.

4. Payment Obligation:

It’s unclear whether entering the VRM is in addition to paying the tariff or if it serves as a substitute for it.

Potential Issues Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015:

1. Section 68 – Transparency:

The ambiguity around when patrons need to pay and how the VRM registration fits into the parking rules could be seen as a failure to provide terms in a clear and intelligible manner.

The lack of clarity regarding the conditions under which patrons versus visitors need to pay or register their vehicles could lead to misunderstandings and disputes.

2. Fairness (Section 62):

If the terms are not clear, consumers could be unfairly penalised for not complying with terms that they did not fully understand or that were not clearly communicated.

The differentiation between "patrons" and "visitors" and how it affects their obligations, could be seen as creating an imbalance if it leads to unexpected charges.

Conclusion:

The sign has ambiguities that could lead to confusion about when parking tariffs apply to club "patrons" versus "visitors" and what actions are required (e.g., entering the VRM in a terminal). The potential for misunderstanding makes these terms problematic under the transparency requirements of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.

To resolve this, the sign would need to clearly distinguish:

The difference between "patrons" and "visitors."

Whether patrons need to pay tariffs during the day.

Whether VRM registration is required in addition to payment or under specific conditions.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: b789 on August 17, 2024, 01:48:34 pm
There is some ambiguity in the terms in that, do members have to pay the tariff if they use the facilities between 8am and 11pm? The signs suggests that club patrons can only use the car park between 11pm and 8am. Only "visitors" (not "patrons") need to enter their VRM into the terminal but it is not clear whether that is in addition to paying the appropriate tariff if it is between 8am and 11pm or whether they are only "visiting" between 11pm and 8am.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on August 17, 2024, 01:22:18 pm
I've attached all the photos I've taken from the car park.


http://(https://i.imgur.com/nOXNgRV.jpeg)[/img]

(https://i.imgur.com/koeyiiJ.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/MSkmxAj.jpeg)(https://www.ftla.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Bimg+width%3D1100+height%3D1466%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FnOXNgRV.jpeg&hash=052d549f0c52dc2849bbf8b298478fac29635e4e)[/img]

https://imgur.com/nOXNgRV
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on August 09, 2024, 10:33:48 am
You keep referring to "fines" and a "penalty". If you can find either of those words anywhere in all the correspondence, I will give you £100 for each occurrence.

You need to get it into your head that this is nothing to do with any fines, penalties or offences. It is a speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company for an alleged breach of contract by the driver.

You actually have 33 days (not 28) from the date of the appeal rejection letter from PE to file your POPLA appeal. So, you have until 1st September to submit a POPLA appeal.

The 14 days you are referring to is PEs bribe discount period. Why are you even considering this? Maybe I should send you a speculative invoice for £100 and tell you that if you pay me £60 within 14 days I'll call it "quits".

If Saltburn Leisure Centre is the contractor of PE, then it may be worth reminding whoever is fobbing you off that they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents and if they are happy that their patrons are invoiced for £100 by an unregulated private parking company  who have accessed your personal data, they should be weary about their own liability. Ask them who is the monkey and who is the organ-grinder in their contractual relationship with Parking Eye.

Cheers for the reply.

I agree, I need to get out the mindset it's a fine/penalty, and instead it's an invoice. My bad.

I very much doubt I'll get an answer out of Saltburn Leisure Centre if I contact them again (for a 3rd time).

I will make a visit to the leisure centre this weekend to try and take photos of any other signage that may help my case and be in touch.

Again, thanks for all the advice/feedback so far.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: DWMB2 on August 09, 2024, 10:28:37 am
We really need to see the signage to be able to advise properly. As I noted in my previous reply, the signage visible on Google Street View suggests that even customers of the leisure centre might need to pay. This might not be the case, but we need to see the signage so that we can advise accordingly.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: b789 on August 09, 2024, 10:26:08 am
You keep referring to "fines" and a "penalty". If you can find either of those words anywhere in all the correspondence, I will give you £100 for each occurrence.

You need to get it into your head that this is nothing to do with any fines, penalties or offences. It is a speculative invoice from an unregulated private parking company for an alleged breach of contract by the driver.

You actually have 33 days (not 28) from the date of the appeal rejection letter from PE to file your POPLA appeal. So, you have until 1st September to submit a POPLA appeal.

The 14 days you are referring to is PEs bribe discount period. Why are you even considering this? Maybe I should send you a speculative invoice for £100 and tell you that if you pay me £60 within 14 days I'll call it "quits".

If Saltburn Leisure Centre is the contractor of PE, then it may be worth reminding whoever is fobbing you off that they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents and if they are happy that their patrons are invoiced for £100 by an unregulated private parking company  who have accessed your personal data, they should be weary about their own liability. Ask them who is the monkey and who is the organ-grinder in their contractual relationship with Parking Eye.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on August 09, 2024, 09:51:55 am
Update.
I phoned Saltburn Leisure Centre and they won't help further in speaking to Parking Eye to get the penalty overturned.

I've noticed in a Facebook group from Saltburn, a lot of the community are getting parking tickets too, even when entering their reg in the computer at the desk in reception. Many are annoyed (rightly so) as ParkingEye aren't overturning the appeals and some members of the public are just paying the fine out of fear.

I haven't been back yet to take photos of any additional signage (if there are any).

The deadline I have to contact POPLA is 14 days from the date of the most recent letter from ParkingEye (letter was dated 30 July - therefore my deadline to contact POPLA is 13 August).
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: DWMB2 on July 30, 2024, 04:50:25 pm
It would be wise to re-visit the site and get your own photos if you are able. Google Street View shows a couple of entrance signs:

It also shows what appear to be a number of contractual terms and conditions signs (https://maps.app.goo.gl/K5JPngnRcxuPopwt9 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/K5JPngnRcxuPopwt9)) - the contents of which it would be useful to see to support with your appeal. The signage we can see suggests that payment was required at the time when you were there, so it would be particularly useful to see if the more detailed signage indicates any exemptions for users of the leisure centre (and if not, whether there are any signs inside the centre that indicate otherwise).
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on July 30, 2024, 04:14:19 pm
Thanks. I'll give them a call again.

This is the only sign I've found online. I can't remember seeing many others, but I could be wrong.

(https://i2-prod.gazettelive.co.uk/incoming/article25533864.ece/ALTERNATES/s810/0_Parking-charges-being-brought-in-at-Saltburn-Leisure-Centre-car-park.jpg)
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: DWMB2 on July 30, 2024, 04:00:03 pm
I didn't ask them to cancel it themselves, as I got the impression they can't.
I'd say it's well worth trying - surely better than having to potentially go to court to argue the toss. Given you've plenty of time before your POPLA appeal is due, this is worth a go in the meantime. Be polite but persistent. If they can't help, see if you can find who does own the car park.

As noted, signage photos would be useful...
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on July 30, 2024, 03:53:24 pm
You appeal to POPLA but only on points of law or BPA Code of Practice (CoP) breaches. You have 33 days from the date of the rejection letter, not 28.

Or you can wait and see if PE send you a Letter of Claim (LoC) themselves or they farm it out to DCB Legal. If the latter, they know they have a very weak case if this ever goes to court.

Ideally, you want a court claim as that is the ultimate dispute resolution service. Once a claim is issued, they usually screw up and this is where you ultimately win.

Just understand that debt collector letters are useless and should be ignored. They are simply hoping that you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will capitulate once they use language designed to shake the fruit out of the gullible tree.

No risk of a CCJ or anything like that if you follow the advice.
Thank you for your advice.

Do you think I should wait a week or two first of all? Or submit an appeal to POPLA straight away?

I'm fairly inexperienced with all this.

I do appreciate all your help.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: b789 on July 30, 2024, 03:41:35 pm
You appeal to POPLA but only on points of law or BPA Code of Practice (CoP) breaches. You have 33 days from the date of the rejection letter, not 28.

Or you can wait and see if PE send you a Letter of Claim (LoC) themselves or they farm it out to DCB Legal. If the latter, they know they have a very weak case if this ever goes to court.

Ideally, you want a court claim as that is the ultimate dispute resolution service. Once a claim is issued, they usually screw up and this is where you ultimately win.

Just understand that debt collector letters are useless and should be ignored. They are simply hoping that you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will capitulate once they use language designed to shake the fruit out of the gullible tree.

No risk of a CCJ or anything like that if you follow the advice.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on July 30, 2024, 03:37:08 pm
As previously noted, it would be useful to see the signage at the site.

Ideally, you could do with getting the leisure centre to instruct ParkingEye to cancel it.
Have you had any progress with this?

I've only spoken with the leisure centre once and when I explained the situation, they confirmed it happens fairly regularly (at least once per week), but they did say 'they don't own the car park'.

They then said they could email me confirming my attendance which may help my appeal, which at the time, I was very grateful for.

I didn't ask them to cancel it themselves, as I got the impression they can't.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: DWMB2 on July 30, 2024, 03:32:20 pm
As previously noted, it would be useful to see the signage at the site.

Ideally, you could do with getting the leisure centre to instruct ParkingEye to cancel it.
Have you had any progress with this?
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on July 30, 2024, 03:26:36 pm
Hi

I appealed on the basis of I actually attended the leisure centre during the whole time my car was parked in their car park. I took my two daughters swimming.

I also attached a copy of the email I received from the leisure centre confirming my attendance.

Unfortunately, the way I appealed was via Parking Eye website in their text box and I never made a copy of my 'appeal'.

I'm not sure what my next step is and where to go from here.

I even paid for the swimming session for me and my two daughters via my bank card.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: The Rookie on July 30, 2024, 03:13:34 pm
Well what was your appeal?

A rejection is to be expected PE routinely reject almost every appeal.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on July 30, 2024, 02:25:51 pm
Hi

I have just a response to my appeal - which has been rejected.

(https://i.imgur.com/0o0qs3H.jpeg)
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: dyslexicdog on July 20, 2024, 06:35:56 am
Recently similar situation, sorted in less than 24 hours - https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/parking-eye-pcn-holiday-inn-peterborough-west/
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on July 19, 2024, 08:19:12 pm
Sorry.

I've included a copy of the back too.

Cheers :)
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: DWMB2 on July 19, 2024, 08:15:22 pm
We need to see the back too.
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on July 19, 2024, 08:13:52 pm
Sorry. I was having a couple of issues trying to upload the original letter I received.

I've edited my inital post to include a copy of the said letter.

Thanks
Title: Re: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: DWMB2 on July 19, 2024, 08:11:57 pm
To help us to help you, please read the following thread and provide as much of the information it asks for that you are able to: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide  (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)

In particular we could do with seeing:
Ideally, you could do with getting the leisure centre to instruct ParkingEye to cancel it. ParkingEye are almost certain to reject any appeal, and barring a glaring technical defect there's a fair chance POPLA will too, which would leave the prospect of defending the matter in the County Court (small claims track).

Once we've got all the info, we can look at your options.
Title: Parking Eye - Saltburn Leisure and Cricket Club
Post by: marvanelli on July 19, 2024, 08:03:15 pm
Hi

I have just today received a Parking Charge Notice (copy attached) from Parking Eye.

I used the car park when taking my daughters swimming, which is allowed, however, I forgot to enter my car's Reg Number in the machine when you first enter the Leisure Centre.

I have spoken with the leisure centre this afternoon and they have sent me an email confirming I attended their leisure centre, on the exact date & time (which also agrees to the date and time on the attached PCN), in which I took my daughters swimming.

I will be appealing this PCN, however, before I do, is there anything I should/shouldn't be doing, during the appeal process?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
(https://imgur.com/SRuWzv5.jpeg)

(https://imgur.com/6B35CoI.jpeg)