Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: yuletwigtool--[ on July 13, 2024, 03:52:49 pm
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OK, just to bring everything up to speed and sign off on this post. I got a call form the original owner a short while ago to say that they were still receiving letters from TfL. It turns out that they have been corresponding with them to transfer liability but it was finally rejected as they were unable to provide any proof of sale (and the transfer of ownership via the V5C did not go through originally as expected and was done retrospectively after the fine and back-dated to before the fine). This could have been organised easily enough, at any rate to knock it on the head and save any further hoo-ha, I have paid the fine for 'them' lol.
TfL correspondence to original owner below:
(https://i.imgur.com/P1H6MwA.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OhwRFYV.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/0A4Es7w.jpeg)
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Thanks for the replies, I'm going to sit tight and will set up a auto-pay system now as Enceladus has suggested
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The vendor (or somebody) of the car has delivered representations to TFL on the 11th July. That may result in the transfer of liability to the buyer (ie our Original Poster), and the OP should receive a PCN in their own name and address.
So I suggest that the OP sits tight for the moment and wait for the outcome of the vendor's challenge. Upon receipt of the new PCN the OP can choose to try his own challenge (representation) or pay-up.
In the meantime I suggest that the OP sets up a TFL AutoPay account and registers the car to it. That should, bank funds permitting, avoid future payment problems if somebody drives the car into the ULEZ.
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Surely the simplest thing to do is for OP to take the hit and just pay the PCN.
I'd be a bit hacked off if I bought a car, and subsequently had to deal with any admin at all, due to previous owner's speeding ticket, PCNs etc.
The OP admits that due to time pressures they didn't check if payment had gone through. So it's on them.
Also the OP may have left the mutual friend a bit red faced [if they arranged the deal], no doubt thinking they were doing both parties a favour.
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The seller seems to be reluctant to make representations?
I'm not sure. I tried to clarify the point on my chat with him, by saying 'I knew you (he) had done the V5C ownership again online but not the PCN' and 'I guess I'll just wait now for them to send it to me now
..unfortunately ..' to which he replied 'yeah..' So I think I've done what I can for now I think - I have a V5C now backdated to 31/05/24They are quite likely to get in a right mess. The fact that they were not the RK becomes utterly irrelevant.
I guess the re-applied and backdated V5C will not flag up in TfL's system at this pointAt the moment you can choose to pay it (anybody can pay) but don't feel minded to do so because you hope to challenge because of the payment difficulties.
If it's worth the bother to challenge on grounds of confusion based on the payment issues then I will waitYou have nothing, yet, to make representations against.
Hopefully it will all come out in the wash in due course
I guess it's a waiting game at this stage
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The seller seems to be reluctant to make representations?
They seem to think that having subsequently done the DVLA transfer (with a backdated date) it will sort itself out (for them). It won't.
They are quite likely to get in a right mess. The fact that they were not the RK becomes utterly irrelevant.
At the moment you can choose to pay it (anybody can pay) but don't feel minded to do so because you hope to challenge because of the payment difficulties.
You have nothing, yet, to make representations against.
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Thanks for everyone's replies!
Yes, you should receive a PCN in your name IF he submits representations explaining that he is not the owner, otherwise it remains his liability
so I got in touch with the seller after all (I bought the car through a mutual friend). He messaged me back after I made the suggestion to him to get in touch with TfL to 'make representations' that he wasn't the owner/driver, saying that he'd gone online on the same day that he reapplied and backdated the V5C. I did try to query that it was the PCN and not the V5C change of ownership he was referring to and he implied that it was.
Did you enter the ULEZ and leave before midnight on the same day? Or did you enter and leave on different days?
No it was different days - in on Fri, which was paid for on the Sunday; out on Mon which I was also attempting to pay on the Sunday at the same time as it was suggested by my folks so I didn't forget but the payment process issue I had paying for the Fri confused matters as I had thought I had done it then and then I thought to check it and of course with a lot going on and to be organise I forgot to check at all until I saw the email from TfL about the payment issue
So the seller has confirmation in writing from DVLA that they were not the registered keeper on the day of the contravention?
I'm not sure of that, but I just received the V5C stating registration on the 31/05/24, he also says he did the online representations for TfL
They also have a 'bill of sale showing the date of sale and the name and address of the new keeper,'?
Not sure about that though
So the seller has confirmation in writing from DVLA that they were not the registered keeper on the day of the contravention? Seems so.
Not sure if he would have that yet - but the V5C came thru at least
They also have a 'bill of sale showing the date of sale and the name and address of the new keeper,'? I'm not sure that's confirmed anywhere as yet?
I normally get a receipt but I don't know if I did do that this time, it was bought through a mutual friend who deals in cars
Successful representations should be straightforward. The OP does not have any PCN(s) addressed to them as yet.
Correct
Shouldn't they? Perhaps, if TFL accept there were problems with the ULEZ payment system.
It would be useful for TfL to have provided the information the bank requested that I asked them for at least
I don't know if it is worth trying to plead with them over the issue of confusion of payment for the outgoing journey, that I had thought I'd done at the same time, due to the issues of payment processing with the various attempts for the incoming journey.
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So the seller has confirmation in writing from DVLA that they were not the registered keeper on the day of the contravention? Seems so.
They also have a 'bill of sale showing the date of sale and the name and address of the new keeper,'? I'm not sure that's confirmed anywhere as yet?
Successful representations should be straightforward. The OP does not have any PCN(s) addressed to them as yet.
Shouldn't they? Perhaps, if TFL accept there were problems with the ULEZ payment system.
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So the seller has confirmation in writing from DVLA that they were not the registered keeper on the day of the contravention?
They also have a 'bill of sale showing the date of sale and the name and address of the new keeper,'?
Successful representations should be straightforward.
Shouldn't they?
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Did you enter the ULEZ and leave before midnight on the same day? Or did you enter and leave on different days?
If you arrived into and then left the ULEZ on a different day then there is likely to be another PCN.
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Yes, you should receive a PCN in your name IF he submits representations explaining that he is not the owner, otherwise it remains his liability.
I suggest you tell him that and that he should come here if there are any problems.
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Hi,
I received a PCN from TfL for ULEZ for 24/06/24 after visiting my folks for the long weekend. Or more precisely I was just informed by a phone call from the person I had recently bought a car from (about 6 weeks ago) that they had received this PCN. We determined that change of ownership which was done online at the time of purchase had some not been processed by the DVLA, and the seller immediately went online to do another transfer of ownership backdated and sent me the confirmation, along with a copy of the front page of the fine which was issued on the 03/70/24 - giving 'me' 14 days (until 19/07/24 according to the PCN) in order to keep the 'discounted' fee. After I sent a chat message back to the buyer saying that I might try to ask for help on a forum, but would redact the address info first (his/partner's info) and that I might need the other pages but I'd let him know, he removed the screenshot of it, so I don't know if he will be willing to provide the rest (though it would probably be standard with other ULEZ fines)
My question is should this be reissued in my name before any payment is made, and would this become automatic if the change of ownership has been made in the database covering that period? In addition I had thought I had made the payment for that journey the day before when I when I had attempted to pay for my for my inbound journey made two days earlier. I had no end of trouble getting the payments to be processed correctly through the TfL Android phone App and tried 3 different bank account cards I had, I ended getting a confirmation on the final attempt and then discovered 2 pending payments in one of my accounts which I then had to spend an inordinate amount of time communicating with the bank trying to find out the procedure to rectify it, which required sending a message to TfL to get a whole of specific details for the bank to allow these pending transactions to be cancelled. Anyway, as a result with everything else that I had going on I didn't remember to check back if I had actually made the outgoing purchase for the following day. Eventually TfL got back to me about the payment on the 26/06/24 simply saying: 'Thank you for your correspondence received on 23 June 2024 regarding payments.
Please be advised that pending transactions are not official payments as we have not received the payment.
We would advise for you to contact your bank if you have made a payment and we have not received it, so they can
investigate the situation further for you.' ..which ignored any of the requests the bank had made🤨
At which point it triggered my thoughts about the outbound payment which I thought I'd made amongst the confusion of the payment process as it had been recommended by my folks to do so, so I wouldn't forget. When I discovered it wasn't paid I wrote a message to TfL on their App about the situation described above and of course have heard nothing back. I guess there's probably no chance of them considering an appeal; I got one when ULEZ first came in (I've 'used' it only 3 times since) and back then signs were not easily seen (nor understandable) and I live far out of London and did not hear of anything about it having been implemented - I received a fine that I challenged pointing out that the signs (which I later saw from some streetview photos) for any newly arrived visitors from overseas would be indecipherable as well, and they dismissed me out of hand.
Thanks in advance
(https://i.imgur.com/no36x6U.jpeg)