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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: efunc on July 25, 2023, 01:06:09 am

Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on November 12, 2023, 04:13:31 pm
I received confirmation from London Tribunals by email yesterday. Good news indeed! Thank you for all your work on this cp. Another success.
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: cp8759 on November 12, 2023, 02:40:16 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10f6mFLEtdkfsrX2rerBUvr7BNFRM7Bji/view).
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on September 30, 2023, 05:54:32 pm
Thanks for your PM, I'll respond to that shortly. In the meantime I've been up and down the road looking for that other sign, and it looks like it's no longer present. However I can see it looking back on Google Streetview, some 60-70 meters from the junction, and it may have been present at the time I entered Perrin Road:

(https://i.ibb.co/9V93LfQ/redsign2.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/JRZGqcs/redsign1.jpg)
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: cp8759 on September 22, 2023, 11:04:36 pm
That red sign is illegal so it doesn't matter what it says.

Anyway, I'll drop you a PM about the next steps.
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on September 22, 2023, 01:52:26 am
Quote from: cp8759 on September 21, 2023, 11:50:19 pm
Well it seems worthwhile to carry on. Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Yes, that would be marvellous, if it really has to go that far.

I'm just wondering if there's something I've missed. Their final image is of a small red sign which I can't quite read from their print. It's a fair distance away from the junction (100 yards) and I don't believe I've ever seen it, but I'll stop there tomorrow to see what it is.
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: cp8759 on September 21, 2023, 11:50:19 pm
Well it seems worthwhile to carry on. Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on September 20, 2023, 11:55:23 pm
I've just received the Notice of Rejection which is a frustrating read since they appear so willfully disingenuous about my argument insisting that the restriction is adequately signposted, but failing to admit that the sign previously visible to southbound vehicles turning right into the restricted road is now absent. They make references to "signs" (plural) but there is only one sign present! All the images they have presented simply show the one sign that is present, not the location of the missing sign. The sign that is present is beyond the point at which a car travelling southbound would turn in, so would not be seen. Even if seen could not be easily read because of the angle. It would have to be turned 45 degrees to stand a chance of being seen by southbound traffic. I was in stationary traffic at this time and took the turn even earlier as the oncoming lane was clear, so even less chance of seeing a sign positioned on the opposite side after the turn in. Is the point about "Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016" correct in this instance?

Here's the rejection. I also received the London Tribunals "Your Right to Appeal" and "Notice of Appeal form"

(https://i.ibb.co/pZYRwLv/brpcn1.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/TbwqWZG/brpcn2.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/jgwZB9W/brpcn3.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/xLmbj04/brpcn4.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/n72V0sC/brpcn5.jpg)
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on July 29, 2023, 02:38:01 am
Thanks for taking the time to wade through that. I did tighten it up a bit as it was clumsily written and slightly repetitious, but importantly have made the changes you have advised. Will submit it shortly. I plan to pop back to the site to see if the sign is indeed rotated 180 as it appears.

It's obscured on the 2022 map but looking at a 2021 streetview image of the back of the sign, exiting the Perrin Road pedestrian zone, suggests it may be a seperate 'Zone Ends' sign. The sign on the opposite side of the road, which is still in situ, appears to have a second sign behind it too.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5602674,-0.3197249,3a,30y,8.58h,96.06t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sg3JsbppH-hgjXuqG1GgbZg!2e0!5s20210901T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

[attachimg=1]

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 29, 2023, 01:56:14 am
Change the last paragraph to:

I have since accessed images collected by Google maps and note that there was signage present on the offside junction of Watford Rd/Perrin Rd at the start of the scheme, but that at least from October 2022 the sign is rotated 180 degree and faces inwards towards the pavement. Hence on the occasion of the 4th July 2023 I was not made aware of the vehicle restriction due to inadequate signage, and for that reason the alleged contravention did not occur.

I would also delete the final paragraph as it is neither a statutory ground of appeal nor mitigation, and it won't make any difference to the outcome.
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on July 27, 2023, 03:13:50 am
That case makes sober reading.

I've put together an appeal, however I waffle on a bit so I'm not sure how effective it might be. Nonetheless:

I have been issued with a PCN for an alleged contravention – 53 – Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone, Perrin Road J/W Watford Road.

I believe there are mitigating circumstances and would like to request that you consider the following and please cancel the PCN.

I unwittingly entered the Perrin Road pedestrian zone. A vehicle restriction appears to have been enforced last year but I had no knowledge of its presence until now. I fully appreciate the value and purpose of the measures operating around the Sudbury Primary School hours of 8am to 9am and wholeheartedly support traffic congestion and road safety initiatives such as this, however not being a local resident I was unaware of its recent introduction and failed to recognise the restrictions that are now in place.

On the occasion of the alleged contravention I was travelling southbound along Watford Road in congested traffic. I chose to leave Watford Road by turning right into Perrin Road in order to join Harrow Road and continue my journey. I do accept that I made a mistake turning into Perrin road at this time given what I’ve since learned about the pedestrian zone, however, the trajectory that I legitimately followed to manoeuvre the junction meant that I did not see any warning sign about it.

Returning to the location subsequently I can see that there is a single warning sign positioned on the south side of Perrin Road on Watford Road. This would be visible to any driver travelling northbound on Watford Road before attempting to turn left into Perrin Road. These drivers are suitably informed by the signage and have adequate opportunity to abandon the manoeuvre to instead continue along Watford Road.

At the time of the alleged contravention there was no sign positioned on the north side of Perrin Road on Watford Road that would be visible to drivers travelling southbound on Watford Road. Since I was in slow moving congested traffic at the time I took the turn looking towards my right towards Perrin Road and understandably my attention was concentrated on the presence of any children or pedestrian activity across the road, first and foremost. The only warning sign pertaining to the pedestrian zone was positioned ahead on Watford Road, beyond the junction, at a distance and at an angle that is not easy to notice, let alone read. The only visible sign encountered on turning into Perrin Road informs of the “Wembley Stadium Permit Zone, on event days 10am – midnight” which is what I did observe at the time, but that did not apply.

I have since accessed images collected by Google maps and note that there was signage present on the offside junction of Watford Rd/Perrin Rd at the start of the scheme, but that at least from October 2022 there is an absence of signage at that position. Hence on the occasion of the 4th July 2023 I was not made aware of the vehicle restriction due to the absence of signage and attach images taken in support of this.

I understand that for the first two weeks Brent Council offered a grace period where drivers would be notified but not fined. This is a valuable provision for alerting any non-local driver about a policy that they would otherwise be unaware of. This is the only instance in which I’ve entered the pedestrian zone during restricted hours and am unlikely to be traveling here again during this time, so feel that the criterion for receiving a warning letter has not been effective in reaching out to motorists such myself who would have no other means of being informed of the restriction. For this reason, would you please consider cancelling the Penalty Charge Notice and instead issuing a warning notice so that I may be sufficiently alerted for the future?

Kind regards,



Original Signage (Sept 2021):

(https://i.ibb.co/7202P2K/Perrin-Sept-2021.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/rsXDynV/Perrin-2021b.png)

Subsequent Signage (Oct 2022):

(https://i.ibb.co/MP6PRrN/Perrin-Oct-2022.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/bFq84Dg/Perrin-2022b.png)

Current Singnage:

(https://i.ibb.co/ngYjpMQ/Perrin-Current.jpg)
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 26, 2023, 10:38:05 am
Quote from: efunc on July 25, 2023, 10:48:19 pm
Thank you very much for your input. I'll get to work on a suitable appeal and hope for the best.
No, write a draft representation and post it on here. Going it alone is a recipe for disaster, as shown in this case (http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149680).
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on July 25, 2023, 10:48:19 pm
Thank you very much for your input. I'll get to work on a suitable appeal and hope for the best.
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 25, 2023, 10:01:34 pm
Quote from: efunc on July 25, 2023, 09:52:43 pm
That said, is the sign an absolute requirement on both sides of the road, or will I still be at the mercy of the council's discretion if I argue solely on this point?
It's not up to the council, it's up to the independent adjudicator to decide whether the signs are adequate. While no case is 100% guaranteed, this is pretty strong as they saw fit to provide two signs in the first place, and give your route you could not have been expected to see the nearside sign.
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on July 25, 2023, 09:52:43 pm
What a brilliant bit of detective work! Yes, I can see how the current image shows the signpost remaining, but the actual sign now absent (there's a small sign facing the other way which is still present, but I presume that's a 'zone ends' kind of sign for anyone departing Perrin Road). What an incredible lapse from the council, I wonder why  it's not been replaced:

Current Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5604345,-0.3196628,3a,30y,188.67h,94.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sndHmDXcBdVCthVYTgnpkhg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)

That said, is the sign an absolute requirement on both sides of the road, or will I still be at the mercy of the council's discretion if I argue solely on this point?
Title: Re: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: cp8759 on July 25, 2023, 09:16:22 pm
Well the council provided an offside sign to begin with, see the September 2021 view here (https://goo.gl/maps/DSV8KebRa8rU3pD8A).

However by October 2022 the offside sign was rotated 180 degree and facing the pavement: https://goo.gl/maps/i9pZKHj12yUYBm4R9

Your recent photos confirm this is still the case, so your case on signage is very strong IMO.
Title: Brent Council - Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone
Post by: efunc on July 25, 2023, 01:06:09 am
Well, it’s another day another dollar. This time on my morning commute I turned off a very congested highway onto a side road, that I have sometimes used in the past, in order to cut across to another less congested road. However the side road in question (Perrin Road) has recently been restricted to pedestrian only between 8-9am apparently, and I don’t normally travel to work this time and hadn't registered this change in use.

Date   04/07/2023 08:29
PCN   BT19734673
VRM   K5AUX
Street   Perrin Road J/W Watford Road
Location   Lw2828 - Unattended Camera Lanewatch 72
Offence Code   53
Offence   Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone

Map: Google Map (https://www.google.com/maps/place/51%C2%B033'37.1%22N+0%C2%B019'10.6%22W/@51.5603108,-0.3202601,19z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d51.56031!4d-0.319615?entry=ttu)

51.560310, -0.319615

(https://i.ibb.co/1sPbhQw/perrin1.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/5L8bc1p/perrin2.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/6Bfrc9R/perrin3.jpg)


The issue for me is the inadequate signage. Approaching this junction traveling southbound to turn right, there is no sign present at all. The single sign is positioned beyond the actual junction, so you’d only see it if you are traveling northbound and turning left into Perrin Road, causing you to see it before you turn. The signs you do see are to do with Wembley Stadium match days.

(https://i.ibb.co/xJLrHcQ/perrin4.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/44Dxwb2/perrin5.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/s13qptc/perrin6.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/RP6BRkK/perrin7.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/cDYvYYZ/perrin8.jpg)

I went back to the spot at the weekend to try and understand why I didn’t see a sign, and the poor placement was very apparent to me. But curiously they’ve now also covered it up. (It wasn’t covered though when I turned into Perrin Road however, as can be seen in the image they captured of me).

(https://i.ibb.co/sjqdDTv/perrin9.jpg)

Does my argument against the signage hold any water?