Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: owen243 on July 11, 2024, 04:41:28 pm
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You reckon i should just pay the £100 and count my losses? Im just a bit upset that a condition i had which affects my cognitive decision making means nothing to those b****ds and the fact that they are effectively 'above the law' as they stated to me when i rang them and they said they don't have to adhere to Road Traffic laws as its private land.
Im getting a little angsty purely because if they send court letters and im out of the country with my family the whole of October and CCJ's stay on record for so long too.
Absolutely not! No one is telling you to pay. You don't run the risk of a CCJ either even if you were unfortunate enough to lose, should it ever get that far. As already stated, P4 are not litigious. It is doubtful they will ever proceed all the way to a court claim.
Even they did, there is whole process to be followed before they can. They need to send you a Letter of Claim which gives you at least 30 days to respond before they can issue a claim. If you wanted to, you could extend that mandatory 30 days by another mandatory 30 days by responding to their LoC with notice that you are seeking debt advice and require an additional 30 days to do so and you would just send that on day 29 or day 30 after the LoC was sent.
Once that has been done, they can issue a claim at any time after the 30 or 60 days. Once a claim is issued, it is "deemed" served 5 days after the "issue date". You would have another 14 days to acknowledge the claim (AoS). Once you have done the AoS, you would then have 28 days (plus any weekend or bank holidays if the 28th day falls on one of those) from the "deemed" date of service to submit your defence which is provided as a template with minimal tweaking required.
After the defence is submitted and the claimant has responded, you would wait for the CNBC to send out a Directions Questionnaire (DQ) where you would indicate any dates in the next 6 months that you would be unavailable to attend a hearing after which another lengthy period of time, the claim would be allocated to a county court local to you and then another period of time before the local county court would allocate a date for a hearing.
Normal timescale from rejection of final appeal to actually getting to court (if ever) is around 9-12 months minimum. So, even if you are away for a whole month in October, you have time to prepare for one, Justin case, even if it means a family member checking your post once a week while you are away and you would have had to have received an LoC around the beginning of September to be in danger of missing a claim form. You would only need to submit a debt advice response just before you go away to put that one to bed.
However, all the above is academic as you'd be the first victim to be taken to court by P4 for your sins. Unlikely but forwarned is forearmed.
You have not only calmed me, but my wife as well as she's been on edge about this too whereas i want to stand by what i believe in.
Thank you so much b789. I owe you
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You are not really being swung around the roundabout (I understand it feels that way).
Bellway will have sold the freehold on to somebody at some point. That entity has, presumably, contracted PM-UK who maintain the common areas and collect ground rents under the lease, service charges from leaseholders and a fairly small service charge from freeholders with respect to the common areas.
PM-UK happen to have engaged P4 to control some aspects.
What is your agreement with PM-UK you must have one. Hopefully it is somewhere with your conveyancing documents. The contents of that will govern your responsibilities.
I've contacted Bellway about this and they've forwarded it to their head office so i should hear back tomorrow i hope if not ill chase them
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You reckon i should just pay the £100 and count my losses? Im just a bit upset that a condition i had which affects my cognitive decision making means nothing to those b****ds and the fact that they are effectively 'above the law' as they stated to me when i rang them and they said they don't have to adhere to Road Traffic laws as its private land.
Im getting a little angsty purely because if they send court letters and im out of the country with my family the whole of October and CCJ's stay on record for so long too.
Absolutely not! No one is telling you to pay. You don't run the risk of a CCJ either even if you were unfortunate enough to lose, should it ever get that far. As already stated, P4 are not litigious. It is doubtful they will ever proceed all the way to a court claim.
Even they did, there is whole process to be followed before they can. They need to send you a Letter of Claim which gives you at least 30 days to respond before they can issue a claim. If you wanted to, you could extend that mandatory 30 days by another mandatory 30 days by responding to their LoC with notice that you are seeking debt advice and require an additional 30 days to do so and you would just send that on day 29 or day 30 after the LoC was sent.
Once that has been done, they can issue a claim at any time after the 30 or 60 days. Once a claim is issued, it is "deemed" served 5 days after the "issue date". You would have another 14 days to acknowledge the claim (AoS). Once you have done the AoS, you would then have 28 days (plus any weekend or bank holidays if the 28th day falls on one of those) from the "deemed" date of service to submit your defence which is provided as a template with minimal tweaking required.
After the defence is submitted and the claimant has responded, you would wait for the CNBC to send out a Directions Questionnaire (DQ) where you would indicate any dates in the next 6 months that you would be unavailable to attend a hearing after which another lengthy period of time, the claim would be allocated to a county court local to you and then another period of time before the local county court would allocate a date for a hearing.
Normal timescale from rejection of final appeal to actually getting to court (if ever) is around 9-12 months minimum. So, even if you are away for a whole month in October, you have time to prepare for one, Justin case, even if it means a family member checking your post once a week while you are away and you would have had to have received an LoC around the beginning of September to be in danger of missing a claim form. You would only need to submit a debt advice response just before you go away to put that one to bed.
However, all the above is academic as you'd be the first victim to be taken to court by P4 for your sins. Unlikely but forwarned is forearmed.
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True, but they have no direct agreement with P4. They should have an agreement, somewhere, with PM-UK (or whoever it is the service charge is paid to).
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But the OP says P4 were engaged after they bought the property so it is unlikely to be in the conveyancing documents.
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You are not really being swung around the roundabout (I understand it feels that way).
Bellway will have sold the freehold on to somebody at some point. That entity has, presumably, contracted PM-UK who maintain the common areas and collect ground rents under the lease, service charges from leaseholders and a fairly small service charge from freeholders with respect to the common areas.
PM-UK happen to have engaged P4 to control some aspects.
What is your agreement with PM-UK you must have one. Hopefully it is somewhere with your conveyancing documents. The contents of that will govern your responsibilities.
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Thanks for the diagram.
Do you think that 'As my bay is away from the house and i was 1 minute from home, i decided to park outside my house..' really provides a reason? Sorry to be pointed, but for all anyone knows a space in area 3 right opposite where you parked was available and you drove past it.
Be that as it may, IMO they would be unlikely to succeed in court.
If you read their responses it seems as if they are acting as enforcer for the landowner whose 'policies' and 'regulations' are the basis for their actions, not a contract between your and P4P.
Surely you must have something from the landowner or their agent regarding estate management fees and their scope and the rules which you must follow within the estate and similarly the rights conferred on you.
We get ticketed if we park in the wrong bays too. Also when im low on sugar (hypoglacemic) i can't really fully think straight and the only thing i wanted to do was quickly get home, unlock the door and get some carbs in me. I wasn't even neglecting the policy around the area.
I emailed Bellway asking for what arrangements they had in place but they told me to contact PM-UK who are the management company (Who contract P4PARKING to enforce parking) in the area. So im being swung around the roundabout at the moment from both companies.
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Im getting a little angsty purely because if they send court letters and im out of the country with my family the whole of October and CCJ's stay on record for so long too.
They have 6 years in which to issue a claim, so there is unfortunately quite a long time in which important things might happen whilst you are away (but the same is true for many things). If they run to completion they can be difficult to unwind.
However they have to issue a letter of claim and cannot issue an actual claim for 30 days. A default judgement cannot be requested until the 14 days for acknowledging a claim has elapsed.
Further even if you were out of the country for over 44 days and everything conspired as badly as possible on it's time line you would still have 28 days to settle in full (albeit it's usually about £220 by then) before the judgement in entered on the public register.
You've made me feel more at ease. Thank you
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Thanks for the diagram.
Do you think that 'As my bay is away from the house and i was 1 minute from home, i decided to park outside my house..' really provides a reason? Sorry to be pointed, but for all anyone knows a space in area 3 right opposite where you parked was available and you drove past it.
Be that as it may, IMO they would be unlikely to succeed in court.
If you read their responses it seems as if they are acting as enforcer for the landowner whose 'policies' and 'regulations' are the basis for their actions, not a contract between you and P4P.
Surely you must have something from the landowner or their agent regarding estate management fees and their scope and the rules which you must follow within the estate and similarly the rights conferred on you.
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Im getting a little angsty purely because if they send court letters and im out of the country with my family the whole of October and CCJ's stay on record for so long too.
They have 6 years in which to issue a claim, so there is unfortunately quite a long time in which important things might happen whilst you are away (but the same is true for many things). If they run to completion they can be difficult to unwind.
However they have to issue a letter of claim and cannot issue an actual claim for 30 days. A default judgement cannot be requested until the 14 days for acknowledging a claim has elapsed.
Further even if you were out of the country for over 44 days and everything conspired as badly as possible on it's time line you would still have 28 days to settle in full (albeit it's usually about £220 by then) before the judgement in entered on the public register.
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1 - My property
2-6 - Parking bays for all other properties (Mine is one bay in 3)
7 - Outside my property there is a tiny pavement before its brick roads. I parked right outside my property (1) which there is no bay.
I can't see your scans (firewall issue) but it seems your saying it's not included in your freehold so must presumably come under an easement?
Ah Damn
I guess so. Ive read "easements" briefly so im only going by my understanding of
- My property line is up until where the pavement starts
- I parked on the pavement right outside my property away from my Bay (And waited 45 minutes until my Sugar returned to normal range to move the car as advised by the DVLA)
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1 - My property
2-6 - Parking bays for all other properties (Mine is one bay in 3)
7 - Outside my property there is a tiny pavement before its brick roads. I parked right outside my property (1) which there is no bay.
I can't see your scans (firewall issue) but it seems your saying it's not included in your freehold so must presumably come under an easement?
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P4 Parking are benign. They are not litigious. However, that does not absolve the OP from getting their act together when it comes to dealing wth scammers operating on private property that they are in some way involved or a party to a lease.
Maybe, if they sense that they are dealing with someone who is such low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree, you may be the first to encourage them to try and file a claim.
I can't express enough thank you's for helping me.
You reckon i should just pay the £100 and count my losses? Im just a bit upset that a condition i had which affects my cognitive decision making means nothing to those b****ds and the fact that they are effectively 'above the law' as they stated to me when i rang them and they said they don't have to adhere to Road Traffic laws as its private land.
Im getting a little angsty purely because if they send court letters and im out of the country with my family the whole of October and CCJ's stay on record for so long too.
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No i was parked outside which the land is not owned by me.
I think I know what you mean, but that's gibberish and includes a probably accidental double negative to boot.
AND?
Sorry i missed your post before B789, my apologies.
https://imgur.com/GuLBEqp
So basically
1 - My property
2-6 - Parking bays for all other properties (Mine is one bay in 3)
7 - Outside my property there is a tiny pavement before its brick roads. I parked right outside my property (1) which there is no bay.
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No i was parked outside which the land is not owned by me.
I think I know what you mean, but that's gibberish and includes a probably accidental double negative to boot.
AND?
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P4 Parking are benign. They are not litigious. However, that does not absolve the OP from getting their act together when it comes to dealing wth scammers operating on private property that they are in some way involved or a party to a lease.
Maybe, if they sense that they are dealing with someone who is such low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree, you may be the first to encourage them to try and file a claim.
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When you appeal to POPLA, the operator (P4) must respond to the appeal and a copy of their response is sent to the appellant (you). The appellant is then given seven days to respond to the operators evidence.
So, you will have received at some point between you submitting your POPLA appeal and the appeal response (decision) information about what evidence P4 was relying on to rebut your appeal. It is normally sent to the appellant by email if they provided an email address with their appeal (did you?). So, where is the operator evidence pack from POPLA?
I did receive an email saying
Your parking charge appeal against P4 Parking (UK) Ltd - EW.
P4 Parking (UK) Ltd - EW has now uploaded its evidence to your appeal. This will be available for you to view by clicking here
Please note: some evidence may not show immediately, if it is not currently available on your account please check back later before contacting us.
You have seven days from the date of this correspondence to provide comments on the evidence uploaded by P4 Parking (UK) Ltd - EW.
Please note that these comments must relate to the grounds of appeal you submitted when first lodging your appeal with POPLA, we do not accept new grounds of appeal or evidence at this stage
Any comments received after the period of seven days has ended will not be considered and we will progress your appeal for assessment. Therefore, if you have any issues with the evidence uploaded by P4 Parking (UK) Ltd - EW such as being unable to view it online, please contact POPLA immediately via phone - 0330 1596 126, or email - info@popla.co.uk, so that we can look to rectify this as soon as possible.
After this period has ended, we will aim to issue our decision as quickly as possible. The decision we reach is final and binding. When the decision is reached there is no further option for appeal.
However i never logged in to see the evidence. Naive of me i know.
On the POPLA page for my case it has a Operator Case Summary from P4 Parking (UK) Ltd - EW which has the following:
OPERATOR STATEMENT Regarding below appeal, please find enclosed the following documents: 1. Photographic evidence of the vehicle{removed} at the alleged time of contravention 2. Appeal received 07-05-2024 3. Re-print of PCN 800459 4. P4Parking decision 18-05-2024 5. Terms and conditions sign 6. Contract Parking charge notice details: VRN – {removed} PCN - 800459 Issue Date & Time - 29-04-2024 20:00:43 Location - Oakes Park P223 Contravention – Parked Outside Of The Markings Of A Bay Or Space Charge £60.00 – discounted rate if paid in 14 days /£100.00 – full amount if paid on 28 days The principal purpose of P4Parking is to ensure that vehicles are only allowed to be parked on the land with authority. The authority is solely dependent upon the rules as laid down by the landowners or their authorized agents and is without exception represented in the conditions as described on the notices throughout the carpark. P4Parking Ltd (UK) has been contracted to monitor & enforce a parking enforcement scheme at Oakes Park P223.Parking is extremely limited; therefore, the parking permit scheme was solely implemented in order to combat resident over improper parking. A covenant on the land requires that parking is controlled and all PCN’s are issued on behalf of the landowners’ agents for breach of the terms and conditions. The operator has a signed agreement with the client, landowner, or the managing agency acting on their behalf. P4Parking is acting as the principal in the contract and has pre-agreed rights to operate the carpark and enforce the contract. The signage clearly states: “ THIS LAND IS PRIVATE PROPERTY. By parking here, you are entering into a BINDING CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT. All vehicles parked within these private grounds and not displaying an authorised parking permit or parked outside of the markings of a bay or space or parked outside of this development parking regulations will be charged via the issuance of a parking charge notice. We appreciate the appellant’s comments regarding the fact that he is a resident but the vehicle was not authorised to park outside of marked bay at Oakes Park P223. As a resident you are fully aware of terms and conditions of the car park and signage is clearly displayed around the development which one of the conditions clearly states if parked outside of marked bay parking charge notice will be received. From the pictorial evidence the appellant's vehicle was parked outside of marked bay/space. Therefore, the parking charge notice was issued correctly by the operative as the vehicle was parked outside of the markings of a bay. I hope this information is enough to prove that vehicle was left in contravention of the site regulations. Kind Regards, Appeals Department P4Parking
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When you appeal to POPLA, the operator (P4) must respond to the appeal and a copy of their response is sent to the appellant (you). The appellant is then given seven days to respond to the operators evidence.
So, you will have received at some point between you submitting your POPLA appeal and the appeal response (decision) information about what evidence P4 was relying on to rebut your appeal. It is normally sent to the appellant by email if they provided an email address with their appeal (did you?). So, where is the operator evidence pack from POPLA?
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...and the operators POPLA response to your POPLA appeal with their "evidence"?
What POPLA replied with
When assessing an appeal POPLA considers if the operator has issued the parking charge notice correctly and if the driver has complied with the terms and conditions for the use of the car park. The operator has provided evidence of the vehicle parked on the site on the day in question. I note the appellant’s grounds of appeal and I have reviewed the evidence of the vehicle parked on the site and the signage provided by the operator. The British Parking Association Code of Practice sets the standards by which its members must abide by. Section 19.3 of the code states that signs must be placed throughout the car park so that drivers have the chance to review the terms and conditions. The code confirms that these signs must be conspicuous and legible and written in intelligible language so that they are easy to see read and understand. The operator has provided multiple images of the signs within the car park and after reviewing these, I am satisfied that there are plenty of signs located within the car park and that these signs meet the requirements of section 19.3 of the Code of Practice. The signage on the site is clear in that vehicles parked outside of marked bays are in breach of the terms and conditions. The appellant has advised that the operator has not complied with The Road Traffic Act and the DVLA specifies that motorists are not allowed to drive under these conditions. I note the appellant’s comments however as the vehicle was parked on private land, the Road Traffic Act or any other regulations do not apply. POPLA does consider whether issues of discrimination have had an effect on the parking contract. We know that the Equality Act specifically protects disabled people from unfavourable treatment, and this does apply during the provision of services such as parking. In order to assess what effect the Equality Act had in the present case, we would need to be satisfied that there had been unfavourable treatment, and that a disability was one of the reasons driving the unfavourable treatment. I do not consider that the operator has applied any unfavourable treatment. I do not consider that the operator has demonstrated any breach of the Equality Act 2010, nor do I understand why the appellant believed this was the case. For clarity, any motorist parking in breach of the conditions of the parking contract would have been issued with a PCN. I acknowledge that the appellant is diabetic and I understand the seriousness of a hypoglycemic episode. I feel it is important in this case to highlight POPLA’s role. As an assessor my role is to consider if a parking charge has been issued correctly in line with the terms and conditions of the car park, evidence provided by both parties, relevant law, and the British Parking Association (BPA)’s Code of Practice, if applicable. Whilst I do appreciate that terms and conditions on occasion may not be followed due to circumstances outside of a motorist’s control, it is not within my power to allow an appeal on mitigating circumstances alone. The appellant has offered further evidence however the opportunity for either party to provide further evidence has now passed. It is not the role of the assessor to collect evidence or contact witnesses. They will look at the evidence that is provided to them from both parties and make a decision based on this alone. After considering the evidence from both parties the vehicle was parked outside of the markings of a bay or space and therefore did not comply with the terms and conditions of the site. Based on the evidence provided, I am satisfied the parking charge has been issued correctly therefore, I must refuse the appeal
What P4PARKING Replied with (First Appeal before POPLA)
Issue date: 29/04/2024
5161394016 Popla Code Thank you for your correspondence received on 07/05/2024, which has been passed for
our attention and which we have read with interest. We have reviewed the case and considered the comments
that you have made.
Further to and in response to your appeal, P4Parking has been contracted by the landowners or agents thereof to
ensure that vehicles are only allowed to be parked on the land with authority. This authority is dependent upon the
rules as laid down by the landowners or bodies acting on behalf of such estate, land or development. P4Parking
has the authority to charge any vehicle that is parked contrary to these regulations.
It is the responsibility of the person parking to demonstrate the correct display of the relevant permit and or
adherence to the rules governing the parking of the vehicle(s) within the grounds. The area where your vehicle
was charged has a policy to which all attending vehicles must park within the pre-informed parking criteria. The
contravention you have been breached with specifically is for:
Parked Outside The Markings Of A Bay Or Space
Although I sympathies with your concerns, at the time of your vehicle contravention and subsequent issuance with
a Parking Charge Notice the vehicle was in breach of the above and therefore, correctly charged under the power
given to us by the landowner. When parking on private land, a motorist freely enters into an agreement to abide
by the conditions of parking in return for permission to park. It is the motorist’s responsibility to ensure that he or
she abides by any clearly displayed conditions of parking. It is also the duty of the driver to read signage placed
on the development.
With regards to your appeal of the parking charge issued and having inspected all data available, which includes
your letter and contents of appeal, photographs taken at the time of the charge issued by the warden and all
additional 3rd party information available to us, we must make the following points very clearly.
It is the duty of the driver to read the signage placed on the development. The signs on the development clearly
state "All vehicles parked within these private grounds and not displaying an authorized parking permit or parked
outside of this development's parking regulations will be charged via the issuance of a parking charge notice.
Enforcement may take place at any time."
Having read your statement, it is the motorist responsibility to read the warning notices on the development and
abide to the parking regulations and adhere to the rules governing the parking of the vehicle(s) within the grounds.
The terms and conditions from this site state that a vehicle must not be “Parked causing an obstruction or
parked outside of a marked bay”. Pictorial evidence provided by the warden shows that you parked your
vehicle in contravention to the terms and conditions displayed.
Under no circumstance are vehicle allowed to park there without management authorisation. You did not
seek authorisation and left your vehicle unattended in a controlled zone on private land.
The patrol officer has carried out his duties correctly as instructed by the landowner. Motorists parking on private
land must comply with the advertised terms and conditions, therefore the patrol officer had reasonable cause to
issue a parking charge notice on your vehicle.
Therefore the parking charge notice was issued correctly according to the instructions set out by the landowners,
please see attached pictorial evidence below.
After careful consideration, we must advise you that your appeal for this PCN has been REJECTED.
We are therefore unable to cancel the Parking Charge Notice as it was issued correctly. We have now extended
the discounted payment period by 14 days to allow you time to pay the discounted settlement amount. Please
now make payment of £60 to reach us by 01/06/2024 or £100 to reach us by 15/06/2024. We must advise you
that once the discounted settlement rate passes it will not be offered again. You have now reached the end of our
internal appeals procedure, you have the legal right to submit a second appeal to POPLA. P4Parking cannot deal
with any subsequent appeal relating to this parking charge notice.
Furthermore, it is our duty to inform you that if you should choose to submit to POPLA (Parking on Private Land
Appeals), you will lose all the opportunities to pay the discount rate. If you want to appeal, you must do so within
28 days of the date this notice of rejection has been sent.
If your appeal is refused then the full parking charge will be due as the time for any early payment discount
offered by the operator will have passed. Do not pay the charge if you are appealing. If your appeal is allowed you
have nothing to pay. If your appeal is refused, in order to avoid any further action by the operator, you should then
pay the full parking charge within 28 days.
The quickest and easiest way to submit your appeal to POPLA is online at www.popla.co.uk 5161394016 POPLA
verification code
By law, we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services (www.ombudsmanservices.org/) provides
an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal, however, we have not
chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such should you wish to appeal, then you
must do so to POPLA, as explained above.
Please note, POPLA only applies in England, Wales and Scotland and it does not extend to tickets issued in
Northern Ireland.
Payments can be made choosing one of the alternatives:
Online https://p4parking.ec6pay.com
Send a cheque or postal order to Po Box 71107 London SE18 9LB payable to P4Parking UK LTD
1. Please ensure that you write the Parking Charge reference number on the reverse of the Cheque or Postal
Order
2. Please note that Post Dated Cheques will not be accepted
3. If you require a receipt, you will need to specify this along with your payment AND include a stamped self
addressed envelope.
You are advised to send postal payments by recorded delivery!
Call our automated payment line 03332407298
Choosing not to pay or not to submit an appeal to POPLA within the relevant time frame will give us the freedom
to legally solve this outstanding Debt. All costs associated with this process will be added to the amount
outstanding.
We are sorry this is not the answer for which you would have hoped.
Kind regards,
Appeals Department
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No i was parked outside which the land is not owned by me.
I think I know what you mean, but that's gibberish and includes a probably accidental double negative to boot.
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...and the operators POPLA response to your POPLA appeal with their "evidence"?
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Also is there a template if i remember correctly someone states there's a template i can use to prepare myself for my reply.
You're nowhere near requiring any "defence", if ever. You now have to wait and see if P4 decide to take this to court. You are likely to receive final reminders and debt collector letters which you have already been advised, can be safely ignored. No matter what they threaten, ignore. They cannot do anything.
Eventually, P4 will have to make a decision on whether it is worth their while taking you to court for the alleged debt. If they do, they or their solicitor will send you a Letter of Claim (LoC) or it may be worded as a Letter Before Claim or whatever. Unlike any reminders and debt collector letters which normally only give you 14 days, an LoC must give 30 days to pay or they may issue a county court claim without further notice. They may still decide not to issue a claim after that. Who knowns?
For now, you need to find out your rights and whether P4 or the management company have any right to invoice you for £100 for stopping outside your own property.
You've been asked for copies of any PCN you received and for a copy of P4s evidence they provided to POPLA. Are you suggesting that you never kept any of this? Even if it was provided electronically?
- You've been asked for copies of any PCN you received and for a copy of P4s evidence they provided to POPLA. Are you suggesting that you never kept any of this? Even if it was provided electronically?
I originally thought i threw away the original (I spilt tea on it a few weeks back on my desk). However, i did take a picture of it as i do with all documents. It was saved in my Google Drive as opposed to Google Photos which is why i thought i didnt have it.
Here is the PCN (Please note its not the camera, the printing quality of the PCN was THAT bad.)
I have blurred out my registration.
I cannot upload the original PDF as it says 'the uploader is full'.
https://imgur.com/a/wDUtymk
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I am assuming your property is the dark red outline adjacent to parking space marked 33.
You said you were parked in front of your house. It is difficult to tell from the picture you supplied whether you are potentially on your land. The portion within the dotted lines could be anything, garden, pavement, the front of your house.
If it so happens it was your land it's not a silver bullet but they may be outside whatever authority they have in their contract with the management co.
If it's a Bell way development is the manager Trinity Estates? (I merely ask because this is the case where I live and Trinity do have a more detailed site plan with better boundary markings and so on and it details common roadways etc).
No i was parked outside which the land is not owned by me. There's a area that is where the doorway to enter the house is, but it was more on the pavement of the private land.
I rang Bellway they told me they cannot provide any information about land ownership other than
- the property is mine
- the parking bays are mine
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Also is there a template if i remember correctly someone states there's a template i can use to prepare myself for my reply.
You're nowhere near requiring any "defence", if ever. You now have to wait and see if P4 decide to take this to court. You are likely to receive final reminders and debt collector letters which you have already been advised, can be safely ignored. No matter what they threaten, ignore. They cannot do anything.
Eventually, P4 will have to make a decision on whether it is worth their while taking you to court for the alleged debt. If they do, they or their solicitor will send you a Letter of Claim (LoC) or it may be worded as a Letter Before Claim or whatever. Unlike any reminders and debt collector letters which normally only give you 14 days, an LoC must give 30 days to pay or they may issue a county court claim without further notice. They may still decide not to issue a claim after that. Who knowns?
For now, you need to find out your rights and whether P4 or the management company have any right to invoice you for £100 for stopping outside your own property.
You've been asked for copies of any PCN you received and for a copy of P4s evidence they provided to POPLA. Are you suggesting that you never kept any of this? Even if it was provided electronically?
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I am assuming your property is the dark red outline adjacent to parking space marked 33.
You said you were parked in front of your house. It is difficult to tell from the picture you supplied whether you are potentially on your land. The portion within the dotted lines could be anything, garden, pavement, the front of your house.
If it so happens it was your land it's not a silver bullet but they may be outside whatever authority they have in their contract with the management co.
If it's a Bell way development is the manager Trinity Estates? (I merely ask because this is the case where I live and Trinity do have a more detailed site plan with better boundary markings and so on and it details common roadways etc).
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OP, can we go back to the beginning pl and see:
The Notice to Driver;
The Notice to Keeper;
The creditor's evidence to POPLA.
Also, photos of where you parked showing the context, especially where the allocated bays are located (you might need a Google Street View aerial shot for this).
In short - and just looking at the what and not the why- their case is that you parked on the controlled land outwith your allocated bay for a period. We don't know how long before the NTD was served, only how long you say you parked in total.
Unfortunately i don't have any of the documents and the POPLA online portal doesn't show me what i wrote it just shows a summary of it and what the response was from the POPLA team.
This was a PCN issues on the windscreen. No letters was processed or sent to our address.I just appealed through them, they rejected and then i got the decision to appeal to POPLA. My appeal basically for both P4Parking and to Popla was similar to my first post.
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So you need a copy of your full deeds to see what the easements are, but I suspect it will relate to the parking.
Does the plan for the property (the bit outlined in red usually) include the parking spaces? If not that would add to my suspicion above.
How long ago was the freehold first established, more than 5 years and it's all but certain there will be no mention of permits or any other such BS, even if it's recent it would be hard for an easement to cover the various different PPC MOs.
Once we establish the full legal position you can then write to them explaining full (with evidence) as to why nothing is owed, it's unlikely they will progress to a letter of claim by October, but even if they do, have your reply prepared in advance and you can send it if required as soon as you return (or get someone to monitor your post and they can send it for you!).
- How long ago was the freehold first established
We bought the house in Q3 of 2017. So its close to 7 years now. The title register also states that.
I've messages Bellway (The property developer) to ask for the parking easements and once they reply ill post it on here.
Also is there a template if i remember correctly someone states there's a template i can use to prepare myself for my reply.
Thank you
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OP, can we go back to the beginning pl and see:
The Notice to Driver;
The Notice to Keeper;
The creditor's evidence to POPLA.
Also, photos of where you parked showing the context, especially where the allocated bays are located (you might need a Google Street View aerial shot for this).
In short - and just looking at the what and not the why- their case is that you parked on the controlled land outwith your allocated bay for a period. We don't know how long before the NTD was served, only how long you say you parked in total.
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So you need a copy of your full deeds to see what the easements are, but I suspect it will relate to the parking.
Does the plan for the property (the bit outlined in red usually) include the parking spaces? If not that would add to my suspicion above.
How long ago was the freehold first established, more than 5 years and it's all but certain there will be no mention of permits or any other such BS, even if it's recent it would be hard for an easement to cover the various different PPC MOs.
Once we establish the full legal position you can then write to them explaining full (with evidence) as to why nothing is owed, it's unlikely they will progress to a letter of claim by October, but even if they do, have your reply prepared in advance and you can send it if required as soon as you return (or get someone to monitor your post and they can send it for you!).
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You can apply to the land registry for a copy of your entry, it could be you own the freehold to the house for example but that the car park is not yours but you have an easement to park there. That would then put you at the same status (effectively) as a leaseholder/tenant and the wording of the easement would be key, but one benefit is they cannot change your easement unilaterally where aspects of a lease may be by the right (and rarely followed) process.
Okay so i've paid for my title plan and title register.
All i see is :
2017-11-22 The land has the benefit of any legal easements
granted by the Transfer dated 5 October 2015
referred to in the Charges Register but is subject to
any rights that are reserved by the said deed and
affect the registered land
and
2017-11-22 The land has the benefit of any legal easements
granted by the Transfer dated 27 October 2017
referred to in the Charges Register but is subject to
any rights that are reserved by the said deed and
affect the registered land.
2017-11-22 The Transfer dated 27 October 2017 referred to
above contains a provision as to light or air and
boundary structures and a provision excluding the
operation of section 62 of the Law of Property Act
1925 as therein mentioned.
And a few other entries which doesn't really mean much. Anything i should be looking out for?
As for the land register. The circle bright red is the property. The highlighted lighter red are all the parking bays for all the properties. Its scattered around the whole development and bays are not always near the property. Some are walking distance away.
https://imgur.com/a/E3GDfwH
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You are too late to do any more appeals. Do not contact the PPC or any debt collectors who will be sending you scary letters with an added fake £60 or £70 fee. You can safely ignore them.
You have not answered the question about your lease and what does it say and not say about parking. A letter from a management company cannot alter or vary what is in your lease.
If P4 decide to take this matter all the way to a court claim for the alleged debt, you will need to know all the information that is being asked as it will form part of any defence. They may or may not go all the way and even if they do issue a claim, there is a high probability they would discontinue anyway. However we are trying to prepare you for all eventualities.
The only outcomes for this, for now, are:
1. PMUK tell their agent to cancel the PCN. Simply accepting their fob-off is not acceptable. You should be reminding them that they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents and who is the monkey and who is the organ-grinder in their contractual relationship with P4.
2. P4 decide after they and their debt collectors send you scary letters and you ignore them that you are probably not low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and they'll put it down to a loss and go after riper, lower-hanging fruit and give up. We do not need to see debt collector letters.
3. P4 may decide that they'll ratchet up the pressure and send you a Letter of Claim (LoC) in the hope that it will further intimidate you. If you do get an LoC, show us.
4. P4 may decide to actually issue a claim in the hope that you will now capitulate or ignore it and they can obtain a CCJ by default. This must be responded to and cannot be ignored. Show us.
5. P4 may decide that as you are obviously not low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and have submitted a robust defence (that we supply as a template) that this has gone too far for them as they are on shaky ground and don't really want a spanking from a judge and simply discontinue.
6. This goes all the way to a hearing and your argue your case in your Witness Statement (WS) and a judge will decide whether you owe P4 a debt or not.
7. If the judge decides your defence is valid, then you win. If the judge decides that your defence is not valid or P4 have proven that the driver did breach a contract, then P4 win. If they win, you pay the PCN amount plus £35 court fee and £50 fixed legal fee and that is the end of the matter. No CCJ or any damage to your credit record.
Sorry for the late reply i was away at the weekend with family.
I have a slight concern as im away for a whole month in October.
- What if i get a LOC during that time im out of the country and im unable to reply to it?
- How long do i usually have to respond to a CCJ? Im worried in case i miss out on the deadline by being out of the country.
Thanks
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You can apply to the land registry for a copy of your entry, it could be you own the freehold to the house for example but that the car park is not yours but you have an easement to park there. That would then put you at the same status (effectively) as a leaseholder/tenant and the wording of the easement would be key, but one benefit is they cannot change your easement unilaterally where aspects of a lease may be by the right (and rarely followed) process.
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They have just sent it to everybody.
Trying to figure out who owns the land you were parked on may make sense, any right to enforce will flow from an agreement with the freeholder of that land.
I can try and find out, let me send a couple of emails :)
Thank you
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They have just sent it to everybody.
Trying to figure out who owns the land you were parked on may make sense, any right to enforce will flow from an agreement with the freeholder of that land.
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The letter the OP has shared is headed "Circulated to all leaseholders", which suggests the OP holds some sort of lease (perhaps a separate agreement covering the relevant parking space(s)).
Does this not apply to me then as i'm a freeholder? Or are we comparing Apples to potatoes here and the words are similar but have different meanings.
Thanks
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The letter the OP has shared is headed "Circulated to all leaseholders", which suggests the OP holds some sort of lease (perhaps a separate agreement covering the relevant parking space(s)).
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You have not answered the question about your lease and what does it say and not say about parking. A letter from a management company cannot alter or vary what is in your lease.
If the property is indeed a freehold house there won't be one for that. It's unclear what OP may have a lease over.
That doesn't detract from the other points though, but if it turns out OP was parked on land they happen to own or one of the other houses does and isn't part of the common areas managed by the management co then from whom have the parking company acquired their purported rights.
Yeah we own the property as Freehold. (2 bed house)
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You have not answered the question about your lease and what does it say and not say about parking. A letter from a management company cannot alter or vary what is in your lease.
Would that be in the book we got that highlights the property land ownership when we bought it (From Bellway from New) and is a freehold property.
If not, can i obtain this from the property developer (Bellway)?
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You have not answered the question about your lease and what does it say and not say about parking. A letter from a management company cannot alter or vary what is in your lease.
If the property is indeed a freehold house there won't be one for that. It's unclear what OP may have a lease over.
That doesn't detract from the other points though, but if it turns out OP was parked on land they happen to own or one of the other houses does and isn't part of the common areas managed by the management co then from whom have the parking company acquired their purported rights.
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You are too late to do any more appeals. Do not contact the PPC or any debt collectors who will be sending you scary letters with an added fake £60 or £70 fee. You can safely ignore them.
You have not answered the question about your lease and what does it say and not say about parking. A letter from a management company cannot alter or vary what is in your lease.
If P4 decide to take this matter all the way to a court claim for the alleged debt, you will need to know all the information that is being asked as it will form part of any defence. They may or may not go all the way and even if they do issue a claim, there is a high probability they would discontinue anyway. However we are trying to prepare you for all eventualities.
The only outcomes for this, for now, are:
1. PMUK tell their agent to cancel the PCN. Simply accepting their fob-off is not acceptable. You should be reminding them that they are jointly and severally liable for the actions of their agents and who is the monkey and who is the organ-grinder in their contractual relationship with P4.
2. P4 decide after they and their debt collectors send you scary letters and you ignore them that you are probably not low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and they'll put it down to a loss and go after riper, lower-hanging fruit and give up. We do not need to see debt collector letters.
3. P4 may decide that they'll ratchet up the pressure and send you a Letter of Claim (LoC) in the hope that it will further intimidate you. If you do get an LoC, show us.
4. P4 may decide to actually issue a claim in the hope that you will now capitulate or ignore it and they can obtain a CCJ by default. This must be responded to and cannot be ignored. Show us.
5. P4 may decide that as you are obviously not low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and have submitted a robust defence (that we supply as a template) that this has gone too far for them as they are on shaky ground and don't really want a spanking from a judge and simply discontinue.
6. This goes all the way to a hearing and your argue your case in your Witness Statement (WS) and a judge will decide whether you owe P4 a debt or not.
7. If the judge decides your defence is valid, then you win. If the judge decides that your defence is not valid or P4 have proven that the driver did breach a contract, then P4 win. If they win, you pay the PCN amount plus £35 court fee and £50 fixed legal fee and that is the end of the matter. No CCJ or any damage to your credit record.
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You say your properly is a freehold house and the parking space is a distance away from your property. You also parked outside your house.
Do you know the boundaries of your land. You should hopefully have that from the conveyance. If you don't you should be able to get it from the land registry for a small fee.
In some developments with mixed freehold houses and leasehold blocks of flats the roadways are owned by the adjacent houses.
I have a big document at home which highlights what we own.
Let me look for it and see what it highlights.
Basically outside out house is
House | Pavement | road | Bays for parking (This is looking as if your standing outside out front door)
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You say your properly is a freehold house and the parking space is a distance away from your property. You also parked outside your house.
Do you know the boundaries of your land. You should hopefully have that from the conveyance. If you don't you should be able to get it from the land registry for a small fee.
In some developments with mixed freehold houses and leasehold blocks of flats the roadways are owned by the adjacent houses.
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What have PMUK said about this when you complained to them?
I did write to PMUK to cancel it (On the same grounds as did for POPLA saying im a diabetic and i had to get indoors quick to get sugar.
Their reply was
Dear {redacted},
Thank you for your email.
PMUK are unable to cancel parking notices have you sent your appeal to P4 Parking?
complaints@p4parking.co.uk
Many thanks.
Kind Regards,
So, what does your lease say about parking? What does it say about requiring a permit to park? What does it say about any third party that is not a signatory to the lease being able to fetter any rights to your quiet enjoyment?
This is the letter that is sent out to all occupants at the area (which we got too) I have blurred out sensitive information such as my address and name the letter is addressed to.
(https://imgur.com/a/5A5qdXs)
https://imgur.com/a/5A5qdXs
Were P4 Parking "brought in" before or after you purchased the property?
They were brought it after we bought the property. When we bought the property there was a different company here prior to PMUK doing the same things (Governing the area etc).
Why were the previous PPC removed?
Honestly i have no idea. I can call them to find out if that information will help me (If so, any other information i can ask them too?). We just got a letter through one day saying they're taking over.
Can i contact them to tell them that
They are in breach of the BPA CoP at 2.4, 19.8. & Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013.
Question: Does that give me grounds to tell them to cancel the PCN OR i will report them
or
Tell them this is in breach of BPA CoP at 2.4, 19.8 & Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 which means they have to cancel the PCN AND also report them.
Thanks
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So, what does your lease say about parking? What does it say about requiring a permit to park? What does it say about any third party that is not a signatory to the lease being able to fetter any rights to your quiet enjoyment?
What have PMUK said about this when you complained to them? Does PMUK have a valid contract the flows from the landholder to them that allows them to contract a third party to manage parking and also to issue PCNs their name? Does P4 Parking have a valid contract that flows from the landowner to them and does it allow them to issue PCNs in their own name?
Were P4 Parking "brought in" before or after you purchased the property? Why were the previous PPC removed?
A point to note is the payment line in the sign is a prohibited premium rate number. The 0845 number breaches Regulation 41 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013. These regulations came from the former Government Department for Business, Innovation, and Skills (BIS), [for now, the Department for Business, Energy, and Industrial Strategy], not Ofcom, and took effect on 13 June 2014.
It's also a breach of the BPA CoP at 2.4, 19.8. These sections cover the requirement for the operator to follow all relevant law or be in breach of the overall standards of conduct required to be a member of the AOS. They have not followed all relevant law.
This can be reported to Trading Standards (via the Citizen's Advice national Consumer Helpline on 0345 404 0506). The omission of call costs from the sign breaches Ofcom regulations that took effect 1 July 2015. This can be reported to the Advertising Standards Agency on their webform.
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Thank you so much for your reply.
I was unaware of this forum until after someone informed me yesterday to which Popla had made their verdict.
Was the PPC contracted at the location before you purchased the property or were they brought in by the management company after? If so, how was parking managed before they were contracted?
- There was a different management company before PMUK but they basically did the same thing. The contract was just given to a different company a few years ago
In a worst case scenario, if it did go all the way to a hearing and you lost, you won’t get a CCJ on your record as long as the judgment amount was paid in full within 30 days. Even then, the amount would be for less than the original claim as any fake added on damages are not allowed in the small claims track
- So if it did go to court and i lost. Would i also be liable to court fees then? Or just the fine (£100).
Here is my appeal to Popla (Im unable to get the full transcript but they provide a "Assessor summary of your case"
The appellant has raised the following grounds of appeal: • They are diabetic and on the day of the incident they experienced a hypoglycemic episode and they needed to take steps to rectify this. • The Road Traffic Act and the DVLA specify that motorists are not allowed to drive under these conditions. • The operator is not considering this and has not considered the Equalities Act 2010 or Section 92 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. • They have attached a letter from a health care provider and they are happy to provided any further evidence if required. The appellant has provided evidence of their condition to support their appeal.
This is what POPLA replied with:
When assessing an appeal POPLA considers if the operator has issued the parking charge notice correctly and if the driver has complied with the terms and conditions for the use of the car park. The operator has provided evidence of the vehicle parked on the site on the day in question. I note the appellant’s grounds of appeal and I have reviewed the evidence of the vehicle parked on the site and the signage provided by the operator. The British Parking Association Code of Practice sets the standards by which its members must abide by. Section 19.3 of the code states that signs must be placed throughout the car park so that drivers have the chance to review the terms and conditions. The code confirms that these signs must be conspicuous and legible and written in intelligible language so that they are easy to see read and understand. The operator has provided multiple images of the signs within the car park and after reviewing these, I am satisfied that there are plenty of signs located within the car park and that these signs meet the requirements of section 19.3 of the Code of Practice. The signage on the site is clear in that vehicles parked outside of marked bays are in breach of the terms and conditions. The appellant has advised that the operator has not complied with The Road Traffic Act and the DVLA specifies that motorists are not allowed to drive under these conditions. I note the appellant’s comments however as the vehicle was parked on private land, the Road Traffic Act or any other regulations do not apply. POPLA does consider whether issues of discrimination have had an effect on the parking contract. We know that the Equality Act specifically protects disabled people from unfavourable treatment, and this does apply during the provision of services such as parking. In order to assess what effect the Equality Act had in the present case, we would need to be satisfied that there had been unfavourable treatment, and that a disability was one of the reasons driving the unfavourable treatment. I do not consider that the operator has applied any unfavourable treatment. I do not consider that the operator has demonstrated any breach of the Equality Act 2010, nor do I understand why the appellant believed this was the case. For clarity, any motorist parking in breach of the conditions of the parking contract would have been issued with a PCN. I acknowledge that the appellant is diabetic and I understand the seriousness of a hypoglycemic episode. I feel it is important in this case to highlight POPLA’s role. As an assessor my role is to consider if a parking charge has been issued correctly in line with the terms and conditions of the car park, evidence provided by both parties, relevant law, and the British Parking Association (BPA)’s Code of Practice, if applicable. Whilst I do appreciate that terms and conditions on occasion may not be followed due to circumstances outside of a motorist’s control, it is not within my power to allow an appeal on mitigating circumstances alone. The appellant has offered further evidence however the opportunity for either party to provide further evidence has now passed. It is not the role of the assessor to collect evidence or contact witnesses. They will look at the evidence that is provided to them from both parties and make a decision based on this alone. After considering the evidence from both parties the vehicle was parked outside of the markings of a bay or space and therefore did not comply with the terms and conditions of the site. Based on the evidence provided, I am satisfied the parking charge has been issued correctly therefore, I must refuse the appeal.
This is the sign outside my property. (I can't upload the image it says max reached)
https://imgur.com/KOAlt4s
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It’s a pity you hadn’t come here for advice before you appealed and then again to POPLA. Can you show us what you put in your initial appeal and POPLA appeal.
You should have a read of your lease and tell us what it actually says about parking. What it doesn’t say about parking is equally important.
Was the PPC contracted at the location before you purchased the property or were they brought in by the management company after? If so, how was parking managed before they were contracted?
I don’t think that PMUK are particularly litigious but you have to prepare to defend any claim if they do decide to go that far. For now, you ignore the POPLA decision as it has no bearing whatsoever on any future action.
You can expect to receive reminders and debt collector letters. These can all be safely ignored. Never, ever, ever, interact with a debt collector. They are powerless even though they use scare tactics to try and get the low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree to capitulate and pay up. They are unable to do anything, no matter what they say as they are a third party to any contract allegedly breached by the driver with the PPC. Safely ignore.
Eventually, the PPC may decide to issue a claim for the alleged debt in the county court small claims track. If they do this, it is to your advantage as the only truly arbiter on whether you owe the PPC a debt, is a judge. However, even if a claim is issued, there is no guarantee that they will se it all the way to a hearing and most discontinue. They hope that an actual claim will unnerve their victim.
In a worst case scenario, if it did go all the way to a hearing and you lost, you won’t get a CCJ on your record as long as the judgment amount was paid in full within 30 days. Even then, the amount would be for less than the original claim as any fake added on damages are not allowed in the small claims track.
You have a very good chance of getting this defeated. It’s just a pity that you didn’t come here first as it would quite possible have been cancelled at POPLA stage.
So, look at your lease and answer the questions. Show us a picture of the signage, including any entrance sign.
There is now a new joint Code of Practice (CoP) issued which includes specific clauses on when a PPC should cancel a PCN for mitigation and this PPC has breached their own AoS CoP. See Annex F 1(e):
The private parking sector single Code of Practice (https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/NEW%20Redesigned%20Documents/sectorsingleCodeofPracticeVersion1260624.pdf)
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Hi There,
I got a parking ticket last month for parking outside my hours as opposed to the designated bays.
I basically live in a housing area (New Build) where the parking bays aren't outside my property but in a designated bay area away from the house. Its private bays but the majority of houses are like this. We are all freeholders so we bought the house.
Im a Type 1 Diabetic and when i was coming home in June, i felt myself going low on sugar. The DVLA regulations and the Road Traffic Act 1988 requires that, under certain health conditions, a driver must stop driving immediately to ensure both personal and public safety. As my bay is away from the house and i was 1 minute from home, i decided to park outside my house which i can quickly access and run inside and got the sugar until the blood sugar came back to level.
The DVLA also specifically advises that individuals in such a state should not drive for 45 minutes after their blood glucose levels return to normal.
So, as i waited for my 45 minutes to pass, during that time, i got a parking ticket. I appealed to it on those grounds and it got rejected. So it went to POPLA ( POPLA is an independent appeals service for Parking Charge Notices issued on private land).
To which they also rejected, i rang them up and they said the Road traffic act or driving legalities do not adhere when parking on private land. (Which is weird because i bought the house and a management company decided to take it on a few years later to govern the area, keep the area clean etc).
However in my opinion they prey on current residents and give parking tickets freely to residents and others who are not allowed to park here.
Now i don't understand what im supposed to do. POPLA has rejected my claim and i was just complying with what ive been taught and told to do as a driver and a diabetic.
Money isn't an issue but i feel a bit robbed because my condition forced me to park outside my property to treat myself and im being penalised for it.
POPLA have said that i can go to Citizens Advice for legal cover or i have to pay up.
What are my options? I feel a bit betrayed and upset purely because i'm a diabetic.
The company that runs the area is PMUK (https://pm-uk.com/)
Thanks in Advanced,