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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: scarter1 on July 10, 2024, 07:29:08 pm

Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: cp8759 on November 30, 2024, 01:15:06 am
@cp8759 I assume the decisions referred to are in the list?
Yes.

@H C Andersen as you know an error of law can only be challenged by means of a judicial review in the High Court, which is not an effective remedy.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: H C Andersen on November 29, 2024, 03:50:07 pm
It's still possible to request a review.

IMO, the adjudicator was wrong in their anlysis and summary of what THIS PCN states i.e. the evidence in THIS case. Not a dozen others with similar(how so and how similar??) facts, but this one alone.


The PCN states that if the owner believes that one or more of the grounds listed applies then they may make reps. This is what it states. Therefore these are qualifying conditions for making reps and aligns with the adjudicator's skewed reasoning that these act as conditions as well as grounds and that only if the owner meets one or more of these conditions may they make reps.

I cannot see any other wholly objective conclusion.

This is tosh.

But moving on, the PCN next offers the owner the option of making reps online or 'completing the form below'. But the form below REQUIRES one or more boxes to be 'ticked' whereas online doesn't (a tad difficult as it doesn't list any grounds). Therefore an owner could not as a matter of practical reality elect which grounds apply to their reps if they chose to make these online.

So, the regulatory notice requires grounds to be selected and online doesn't offer any grounds let alone the option to select them. And what turmoil would this create in the mind of a motorist?

Even worse, if they decided to abandon the online option they could find themselves b******d if they had to rely on the postal option unless enough time remained. There is no requirement for an owner to recce online in advance of choosing their preferred method and if they went online and abandoned this for want of being able to comply with the strict requirements of the statutory notice they could find themselves timed out.

IMO, these disparities were NOT considered by the adjudicator whose decision could therefore be faulted and challenged.

But IMO any further challenge MUST focus on what this PCN states and not simply use a general Opportunity Knocks 'Clapometer' approach that more adjudicators than not disagree with this adjudicator's reasoning and application of the law.

This PCN, these facts. IMO.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Hippocrates on November 29, 2024, 09:59:30 am
@cp8759 I assume the decisions referred to are in the list?
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Hippocrates on November 27, 2024, 11:30:40 am
Pretty poor adjudicator logic. Has this adjudicator not heard of the well-established principle of de minimis ? It seems not. Useless as an adjudicator IMHO, there is clear bias shown. Apparently an authority can now put what they like on their web pages provided the statutory grounds are on the PCN. Tosh !
@cp8759 @Incandescent An argument for a panel decision? I have recently uploaded their very same page in Case No 2240415738 for a member and they have DNCed yesterday. Another is looming so let's see what happens.

I liken it all to a game of Scrabble.
When there are totally, even wildly different adjudications, for identical circumstances, something is obviously wrong.
Hence my signature details. Best to be proactive.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Incandescent on November 27, 2024, 11:18:00 am
Pretty poor adjudicator logic. Has this adjudicator not heard of the well-established principle of de minimis ? It seems not. Useless as an adjudicator IMHO, there is clear bias shown. Apparently an authority can now put what they like on their web pages provided the statutory grounds are on the PCN. Tosh !
@cp8759 @Incandescent An argument for a panel decision? I have recently uploaded their very same page in Case No 2240415738 for a member and they have DNCed yesterday. Another is looming so let's see what happens.

I liken it all to a game of Scrabble.
When there are totally, even wildly different adjudications, for identical circumstances, something is obviously wrong.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Hippocrates on November 27, 2024, 11:06:45 am
Pretty poor adjudicator logic. Has this adjudicator not heard of the well-established principle of de minimis ? It seems not. Useless as an adjudicator IMHO, there is clear bias shown. Apparently an authority can now put what they like on their web pages provided the statutory grounds are on the PCN. Tosh !
@cp8759 @Incandescent An argument for a panel decision? I have recently uploaded their very same page in Case No 2240415738 for a member and they have DNCed yesterday. Another is looming so let's see what happens.

I liken it all to a game of Scrabble.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Hippocrates on November 27, 2024, 06:44:09 am
C'est la vie.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Incandescent on November 27, 2024, 01:19:37 am
Pretty poor adjudicator logic. Has this adjudicator not heard of the well-established principle of de minimis ? It seems not. Useless as an adjudicator IMHO, there is clear bias shown. Apparently an authority can now put what they like on their web pages provided the statutory grounds are on the PCN. Tosh !
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: cp8759 on November 27, 2024, 01:10:14 am
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11E2fWA1NA34DEfojYMl8Gg0As8pTvqIL/view), which is really annoying given that Timur Tagirov v London Borough of Brent (224040544A, 25 November 2024) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OR0w4cuAvqycftgpJFcYAokK_iPRAJdU/view) was also decided on Monday and was basically identical.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Hippocrates on August 25, 2024, 11:33:51 am
I would take up cp8759's offer.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on August 24, 2024, 02:22:26 pm
Thanks all. Currently recovering from a heavy night, but for now my presentation as asked for was the following:

"I realised my mistake, uturned and left the LTN from the same entrance immediately."

Within the latest post from them rejecting the presentation they attaching some paperwork around rights and notice of an appeal.

I don't know if this mater, but FGO I'll post it up sometime today.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Hippocrates on August 24, 2024, 01:42:35 pm
https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs/PCN/MakeRepresentationBarbourLogic

The only grounds they provide on the home page are for parking contraventions as per the Tribunal website.

If your representation is rejected, you can make an appeal which will go to an adjudication service.

An application form to make an appeal is enclosed with your rejection letter. You can also make your appeal online or by post.

Appeals are made through London Tribunals. See the London Tribunals website for information on:

grounds for appealExternal link  https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/grounds-appeal/grounds-appeal-parking
preparing your appealExternal link
the appeals processExternal link
Appeal online through the London Tribunals website
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: cp8759 on August 24, 2024, 12:51:22 pm
@scarter1 I've just had a look on the council website and it doesn't provide any grounds of appeal at all, so that should make it open and shut.

To see what I mean, please read the decisions on rows 623 to 641 here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037&range=A623).

That's reason enough to appeal to the tribunal, I'll drop you a PM in case you'd like me to represent you.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: John U.K. on August 23, 2024, 05:56:54 pm
> Please: your formal reps.

Is that a request from me? I.e what was my formal representation?
[/i]
If you post a copy of reps we can see how well the authority considered them.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on August 23, 2024, 04:20:22 pm
> Please: your formal reps.

Is that a request from me? I.e what was my formal representation?
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: Hippocrates on August 23, 2024, 11:42:20 am
I have been unable to recommend cancellation.  Que?

Please: your formal reps.

NOR fails to include power of adjudicator to extend time.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on August 23, 2024, 10:34:35 am
My representation was considered and rejected. I'm attaching images of the letter I received back.

(https://i.imgur.com/IBF9VJs.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aLFk9IA.jpeg)
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 13, 2024, 03:50:19 pm
Make a representation today explaining what you've explained to us, i.e. you realised your mistake and turned around. They will likely reject but the discount will be extended and this will buy us several weeks to find better arguments.

Done. TY.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: cp8759 on July 13, 2024, 12:46:58 am
Make a representation today explaining what you've explained to us, i.e. you realised your mistake and turned around. They will likely reject but the discount will be extended and this will buy us several weeks to find better arguments.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 12, 2024, 10:19:39 pm
BTW If you think this has no chance in wherever in being successfully disputed, I don't need need to waste your time. Just let me know and I can pay it.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 12, 2024, 10:05:47 pm
What counts as a mitigation?
Recent bereavements, health issues, family issues, financial difficulties, anything like that.

You don't need to pay at this stage, even if you just put in a representation saying "the contravention did not occur" that will get the discount extended, but we can probably come up with something better than that.

Unfortunately not. Nothing of the kind.

I realise this probably has a slim to nill chance of me fighting/winning. It's a money maker for them, so the fact I realised my mistake and tried to undo it won't count for anything.

But I would welcome any advice or representations.

"Date of this Notice" is listed as 01/07/2024, so I'm not sure if the cut off for the extension/repesentations includes this Sunday or not.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: cp8759 on July 12, 2024, 09:29:14 pm
What counts as a mitigation?
Recent bereavements, health issues, family issues, financial difficulties, anything like that.

You don't need to pay at this stage, even if you just put in a representation saying "the contravention did not occur" that will get the discount extended, but we can probably come up with something better than that.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 12, 2024, 07:56:30 am
No mitigation, at least none of those on the presentations list on the back of the PCN.
Forget about what's on the back of the PCN, do you have anything else?

Saying again in case you need the quote to see my response.

What counts as a mitigation?

AFAIK there's nothing else, apart from the fact I realised my mistake immediately and turned around immediately to exit.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 11, 2024, 12:56:28 pm
What counts as a mitigation?
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: cp8759 on July 11, 2024, 12:48:38 am
No mitigation, at least none of those on the presentations list on the back of the PCN.
Forget about what's on the back of the PCN, do you have anything else?
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 10, 2024, 10:47:29 pm
Please upload the PCN, also do you have any mitigation unconnected to the contravention itself?

No mitigation, at least none of those on the presentations list on the back of the PCN.

(https://i.imgur.com/9J5CvJ6.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/m3DhH77.jpeg)
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 10, 2024, 08:32:40 pm
I'll upload after the match or tomorrow. To answer your question I turned around immediately after the bollards and exited.

I made a mistake, knew immediately, and tried to rectify it.
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: cp8759 on July 10, 2024, 07:46:38 pm
Unable to attach screenshot of the PCN to this message. I keep getting a "The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator."
That's because you need to read the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), which tells you how to upload images correctly.

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A40XYPcJUR8

It looks like you pulled over on the pedestrian zig-zags for some reason?

Please upload the PCN, also do you have any mitigation unconnected to the contravention itself?
Title: Re: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 10, 2024, 07:35:13 pm
Unable to attach screenshot of the PCN to this message. I keep getting a "The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator."
Title: PCN for Downhills Park Road N17 (Walpole Road Eastbound)(X3A) - realised mistake so uturned out.
Post by: scarter1 on July 10, 2024, 07:29:08 pm
I'll attach the PCN. The location/direction is exactly the same as in this post. (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/pcn-for-ltn-52(m)-haringey-help-with-appeal-please-(representation-rejected)/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR1qm7BSXp-m8Binllqk6JbINDkh39H19uBOcEJOiq5VmchXONwPRzjnQvs_aem_GLbsZkN70ACZijqjXy5YdQ.).

I still have 3 days to pay. I've not made any representations yet.

Only thing I have in my defence (if any) is I realised I had entered the LTN just after passing the planters. So I immediately pulled up, did a u-turn, and exited where I came from.

The video evidence supplied shows me immediately pulling up, but not u-turning, cutting off before that.

I'm not sure if this can help in any way. Do I have any approach?

  • PCN Nummber: ZN1293681A

  • Car reg: GD15WKY

  • Evidence site with video: link (https://haringey.tarantoportal.com/PCNs)


Apologies for the late message, and poor formatting of this message. Came back to this from hols, then spent time on the FB group, before finally getting the email verification email for this site just now.

Any help appreciated.