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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: gumph69 on July 23, 2023, 06:16:16 pm

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on November 19, 2023, 01:52:37 pm

Outcome (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1ijJW4O3zHz-LOkVRi4QHmdf983n1yyJ8).

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on September 21, 2023, 11:45:49 pm

Quote from: gumph69 on September 20, 2023, 10:21:38 pm

I will file the appeal in the next couple days

Please don't do that, I'll email you directly.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on September 20, 2023, 10:21:38 pm

Yes, please
Thank you so much
I will file the appeal in the next couple days

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on September 20, 2023, 10:00:30 pm

I've won a case on this point before, see Nayeem Haque v Transport for London (2220767288, 15 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1KavlK0nNvWS2eI9ICkqjBQRg9-L-2mHc).

Would you like me to represent you at the tribunal?

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on September 19, 2023, 05:09:45 pm

I have just contacted TFL about the 14-day discount period that was re-offered in the Representatioins rejections letter. The letter was dated 1 Sep but not received until 12 Sep
I went to pay the £80 discount yeterday, 18 Sep, only to discover that it had changed to £160
According to the TFL agent, the discount period is dated from the date on the letter, not on the date of service, with no allowance at all for the letter to arrive. Thus, the discount period ended on 15 Sep
The agent had no idea when, exactly, the letter was actually posted. And, understandably, could not account for the length of time RM took to deliver the letter. There was no back-up email regarding the rejection
The agent was unwilling to re-instate the discount, even though I offer to pay it immediately
I have no choice now but to appeal to the LT
Any advice as to how to frame the appeal will be appreciated
Thank you

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on September 18, 2023, 11:39:47 pm

Well obviously TFL can't know how long the rejection took to arrive in the post. On the other hand, if there's nothing to be lost you might as well appeal.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on September 18, 2023, 09:44:33 pm

I went last night to throw in the towel and pay the discount rate
It had gone up to £160
I only received the representations rejection last week, far few days than the 14-days mentioned in the rejection

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on September 17, 2023, 11:15:41 pm

I appreicate your frankness
It seems that you do not think that the blemishes in the PCN and response to the Representations are sufficient to have a reasonable chance of success if I go to the Tribunals
I really feel caught out by this one, especially I caused no obstruction
Thank you

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on September 17, 2023, 09:06:14 pm

The red lines represents an extension of the kerb-line of the side-road, while the blue line is where I estimate your rear bumper was when you stopped:

(https://i.imgur.com/CFsLQOE.png)

I don't see how I could argue your car was not at the junction.

On balance my disinterested advice at this point is to pay, you need to decide what you want to do.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on September 15, 2023, 08:57:21 pm

From photos 2-3 on the TFL website 'PCN details', it seems to show that the rear of my car, though partially in the junction box, did not cross the extension of Sunnyhill Rd. No cars were in the least prevented from exiting from or turning onto Sunnyhill. And, it is not a pedestrian crossing
The 'discount' still seems to be on offer

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on September 14, 2023, 10:24:24 pm

Here are a few pics. I could take more or even measure the lenght of the junction box + road width, if it helps
One photo shows how even an elongated van only covers half the box. It is hard to calculate, whilst driving down a crowded London road, if the junction of this length will be clear by the time it is traversed. As it was, the bit in which the rearof my car stopped, was not adjacent to the road, but only to the pavement on Sunnyhill. No cars were prevented from entering or leaving Sunnyhill, in fact one car turned in from the High Rd

https://ibb.co/MP6XWnB

https://ibb.co/y6dNtXv

https://ibb.co/yF49Gt0

https://ibb.co/PMPzVDj

https://ibb.co/1nRtDyq

https://ibb.co/MSLB5jS

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on September 11, 2023, 12:06:55 am

The total stop is 5 seconds so at the upper bounds of de-minimis, the box extends a bit beyond the junction, and the notice of rejection doesn't actually specify what the amount due actually is (it says £80 but doesn't say if this is the full or discounted amount).

Those issues, cumulatively, barely make this case a 50 / 50 gamble at the tribunal.

However you are quite right in saying the PCN doesn't specify when the discounted period ends, and I've won on this before, see for instance Nayeem Haque v Transport for London (2220767288, 15 November 2022) (https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1KavlK0nNvWS2eI9ICkqjBQRg9-L-2mHc)

If the 14 day discount period starts with the date of the notice, then the last day is 14 September.

If however we count from the deemed date of service, you have until 18 September.

On top of that you didn't actually receive the rejection until 9 September, we can't rely on that as there's no way TFL could know, but it means that an attempt to pay next weekend or even on the 18th would not be particularly tardy.

What I would suggest is that you keep an eye on the amount due, if it goes up to £160 before 18 September we can appeal it based on the ambiguity in the discount period (note: a timestamped screenshot will be needed for this, PM me and I can do that).

If the penalty is still at £80 on 18 September, you'll have to decide whether to pay or risk the full penalty at the tribunal on what won't be a particularly solid case.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on September 10, 2023, 06:12:45 pm

https://ibb.co/nB0pNp8

TFL has taken its time but the inevitable rejection has just arrived, 2 months after the PCN was issued
They are satisfied that half of my car being stationary for 5 second is sufficient to reject the appeal, even though I was past the cross road of the sidestreet and did not prevent any other vehicle from turning from or onto the side road (one car actuallyy did so without issue)
The other appeal notes such as the preceding car that stopped short and prevented me from clearing the box, or the fact that the junction box was excessively long and exceded the joinng road, or that is was clear when I entered it, none of these were addressed in the rejection
It is not clear when the re-offered discount period ends. The rejection is dated 1 Sep but did not arrive until 9 Sep
Thank  you for your assistance

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on August 15, 2023, 11:26:54 pm

Send that off and let's see what they say. I'm not sure that would win on its own at the tribunal, but you never want to deny an authority an opportunity to mess things up.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 13, 2023, 06:57:25 pm

These are my proposed representations. It is not clear when the discount period ends but, to be safe, I should probbaly submit this tonight. If anyone has any comments or suggestions for improvements, please let me know
Thank you


I would like to make representations against this PCN
I barely recall this day 5 weeks ago but have now seen the relevant video. I was travelling within the speed limit along with the flow of traffic along the A23, Streatham High Rd
As I entered the T-junction of Sunnyhill Rd, I focused left and right as there were cars on both sides turning onto and from the A road. When I entered the junction box, traffic was flowing and there was no stationary vehicle in front of me. I entered the box in reasonable anticipation that the car in front of me would leave me with sufficient space and my exit would be clear.
Suddenly, the vehicle 2cars in front of me suddenly stopped even though there was enough space in front of him to fit another entire vehicle. This caused the car immediately in front of me to stop, blocking my exit from the intersection which I had already entered. The lack of adequate visibility prevented me from making a clear judgement before entering the box. Even though I was keeping a standard distance behind the car in front in congested traffic, it stopped at the top of the junction box, leaving me nowhere to go
The junction box was extraordinarily long, extending across the T-junction and just beyond the pavements on both sides of Sunnyhill Rd. This is longer than necessary. The length of the box was about that of 1 ½ buses. Traffic in London does not maintain 1 ½ bus-lengths between vehicles at the best of times.
In addition, where my car stopped rolling for 5-second, the half of the car that was still in the box was not aligned with Sunnyhill Rd, which I had cleared, but rather with the pavement. At this point, the box is not protecting a cross movement. Thus, this section of the box should not be ticketed and a PCN is not justified
I could not, at that point, turn left as I had passed the road; The 2-lane road, at this point, has temporarily reduced to 1 lane. Therefore, I could not change lanes. I tried to slow, trusting that the front car would fill the space in front of him and allow me to clear the box, but they did not in time and I was forced to stop rolling forward for 5 seconds. I did my best not to block anyone
As it was, only half of my vehicle was left in the box and that was for only a few seconds. One can see from my attempt to keep moving forward and to the side, that I was trying to avoid stopping in the box. As it was, no traffic was obstructed, no gridlock was created, no through movement was prevented, which is the purpose of junction boxes. In fact, one can see in the video that a car was easily able to turn around me
It was not my intention to stop in the junction box. I agree with them and am critical of drivers who deliberately stop in them. I try to be careful of them without resorting to stop/start, jerky driving. I think that, in these circumstances, a PCN is a harsh penalty. Had a preceding car not inexplicably stopped where it did, I would have been fine
In short, the situation was created by a preceding car which I could not see nor over which I could have any control

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on August 13, 2023, 02:25:02 pm

@gumph69 I suggest you make a representation based on everything included in your post of 10:14:24 pm yesterday, you don't want to deny TFL the opportunity to mess up the rejection.

That being said, the video is good enough because you can use the timestamps from the two cameras to match up the bird's eye view to the right VRM.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 13, 2023, 11:20:26 am

Though, as Incandescent points out, there is no number plate shown in the second, bird's eye video.
The first video does not show the target car entering the junction box or why; the second video shows a non-specific car being forced to stop for 5 seconds due to a preceding car stopping short, preventing the car in question from clearing the box which he reasonably would have been able to do

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: Hippocrates on August 13, 2023, 10:31:46 am

Sorry.  The latter part of the video reveals all.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: Incandescent on August 12, 2023, 11:56:26 pm

The birds-eye camera shows a contravention. The car drives into the box behind another one that then stops clear of the YBJ, leaving the car behind having to stop "due to the presence of stationary vehicles"  HOwever whether this tein camera approach is legal I'm not sure. If the times on each camera match together, then an adjudicatoe may well rule the PCN is valid, (sorry to have to say it !)

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 12, 2023, 10:14:24 pm

If there is a reasonable chance of having the PCN cancelled, I can fight on. Obviously, I do not want to lose the discount, though I find the contravention harsh and quite possibly unjustified
I don't know if there is any mileage in the length of the junction box, mentioned above, the fact that the car stopped rolling for onlly 5 seconds, was only half in the box, or the fact that the situation was created by a preceding car which I could not see nor have any control
It is not clear when the discount period ends, i.e. when I have to make a decision whether to go double-or-nothing

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: Incandescent on August 12, 2023, 09:22:00 pm

Quote from: Pastmybest on August 12, 2023, 09:02:55 pm

Incandescent is correct they cannot say why you entered the box nor what prevented you from exiting so they had no reason to believe a contravention occurred

Like you I stopped the video after the OP's car left the box, but there is a second video on the same file taken from a birds eye camera. However, I do have my doubts about this use of two cameras as there is no link between them in terms of the reg number of the vehicle.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: Pastmybest on August 12, 2023, 09:02:55 pm

Incandescent is correct they cannot say why you entered the box nor what prevented you from exiting so they had no reason to believe a contravention occurred

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 12, 2023, 06:10:03 pm

Reminder:
The PCN was issued 13/7
PCN received 23/7
Requested DVD from TFL 24/7. Will take up to 14 days; On hold until 7/8
7/8 rang TFL to inform them that DVD not recd. Told that it can take ’14 working days’
Received DVD 11/8

Not sure when the discount period ends or if I have a case. After watching the video, this seems rather harsh. I was not ignoring the box but I was trapped by the pre-emptive stop of a vehicle in front of me. I tried to keep moving but it seems I came to a full stop for 5 seconds. I did not prevent anyone from turning or using a different lane

From TFL website:

PCN status history

10 August 2023
On Hold: SUS20 - Enquiry Received (25/08/2023)
N/A

08 August 2023
On Hold: SUS54 - DTES Footage Request (23/08/2023)
N/A

08 August 2023
On Hold: SUS54 - DTES Footage Request (23/08/2023)
N/A
07 August 2023
On Hold: SUS20 - Enquiry Received
N/A

24 July 2023
On Hold: SUS20 - Enquiry Received (07/08/2023)
N/A

13 July 2023

PCN Batched
N/A

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 12, 2023, 01:36:09 pm

Doesn't the second camera view in the video show me entering the box?

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: John U.K. on August 12, 2023, 12:34:34 pm

Does the box extend too far past the corner?
https://goo.gl/maps/VEUMv2EhCVRdR17d9

or is it substantially compliant?

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: Incandescent on August 12, 2023, 12:32:40 pm

Video doesn't show your entry into the box, nor does it show why you stopped, therefore is not valid as evidence. However, the council will stonewall, so you'd have to go to London Tribunals.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 12, 2023, 12:02:01 pm

I hope this link works

https://youtu.be/V0qyTv1eZh8

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: MrChips on August 11, 2023, 11:56:48 pm

Best way to share it is to either upload to youtube/vimeo or to a dropbox folder or similar and post up a link.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 11, 2023, 10:42:12 pm

It seems that the car in front of me stopped way short of the car in from of him, leaving me with insufficient room to clear the juntion box. I slowed but had already entered the box in reasonable anticipation that the car in front of me would leave me with sufficient space. When they stopped with a large space in front of them, the back half of my car was forced to stop for about 5 seconds over the yellow lines

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 11, 2023, 10:32:27 pm

I received the DVD last this evening
I am not sure how to share it with the Forum
Thank you

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 10, 2023, 12:20:28 am

I shall follow your advice. I will call tomorrow and put it in writing on Saturday

EF61MVX

Thank you

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on August 09, 2023, 11:47:45 pm

The deadline to make representations is Sunday and I wouldn't take any chances.

If you've not had the video in Saturday's post at the latest, send a representation as follows:

Dear Transport for London,

Despite repeated requests, I have not received the video. As I have not seen any footage, I can deny that the contravention occurred and I request that if you reject this representation, you send me a copy of the video footage you rely on. I trust that given the delay in sending me the video, you will reoffer the 50% discount in any event.

Yours faithfully,

Also please give us the number plate so that we can see the case history on TFL's website.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on August 08, 2023, 08:08:02 pm

Just a quick update for the record
I requested an evidentiary DVD to be sent to me on 24/7. It still has not arrived
I rang TFL yesterday and they said that it takes 14 working days (originally 14 days) to arrive.
Hopefully they will continue to put the matter on hold until I receive the disc

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 10:49:22 pm

The PCN offers you an opportunity to accept liability and pay the penalty immediately, and in exchange for that you get a 50% discount. You are entirely within your rights make representations and if those are rejected, you have a legal right to go to the tribunal and at that stage, TFL will have to disclose all the evidence it relies on. The problem is that by then, the discount will be long gone.

This is no different to a criminal case where someone might be offered a fixed penalty or a police caution, in either scenario the police don't need to disclose any evidence as the accussed has to be willing to accept the out of court disposal. The accussed is 100% entitled to go to court, plead not guilty and require the police to prove their case with evidence, but at that point the out-of-court option is gone. Even if no out-of-court disposal is ever offered, you get up to a 33% discount on any criminal fine by pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity (which again saves the police and the CPS the trouble of proving their case at trial).

There is a compelling argument that if someone is willing to accept liability without putting the state to the trouble and expense of proving its case, the accused should be rewarded with a discount on the punishment.

There is a counter-argument that such arrangements will incentivise some innocent people to accept guilt or liability to avoid the risk of a more severe punishment.

Whether these arrangements should be the way they are is a political issue rather than a legal one of course, when dealing with a live case we can only deal with the law as it currently stands.

All that being said, TFL do voluntarily provide the video, so it's all a bit academic.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on July 24, 2023, 09:26:03 pm

Thank you for that. I accept that you know the facts

Nonetheless, I find it difficult to reconcile that a government body can prosecute someone and not be obliged to produce the evidence, in discovery, on which they rely

What you seem to be saying is that TFL, in this case, can simply say ‘you committed a contravention, take our word for it, pay up. We are not obliged to give you a fair opportunity to defend yourself’

Wow

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 07:25:31 pm

Quote from: gumph69 on July 24, 2023, 08:38:53 am

It is, perhaps, a bigger issue but it should not involved locating a phone number and waiting on hold for a phone call to be answered in order to obtain the necessary evidence to make an appeal. I would call that a procedural impropriety

Unfortunately under the legislation, TFL are not required to supply the footage at all. TFL could say that they're going above and beyond by supplying anything, they don't even have to supply photos.

The truth is they only provide photos and videos because they think it will persuade more people to pay up.

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on July 24, 2023, 08:38:53 am

I have made the request to TFL for a copy of the evidence. They will put the case on hold for 2 weeks in the interim. I will post if and when I receive it. I do not imagine that the tiny photos on the PCN link will provide much clarity
I note that the contact number for this request appears nowhere on the PCN or representation fact sheet. It is, perhaps, a bigger issue but it should not involved locating a phone number and waiting on hold for a phone call to be answered in order to obtain the necessary evidence to make an appeal. I would call that a procedural impropriety
Thank you

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on July 23, 2023, 07:56:33 pm

Thank you, Mr Chips
That seems like an extraordinary hurdle to obtain basic evidence. Nonetheless, I will do it in the morning

Title: Re: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: MrChips on July 23, 2023, 07:33:22 pm

Hello.

For PCNs issued by TFL the only way to access the video is to call them and request it - they will put the penalty on hold for a few days and send you a DVD in the post.

Please do this asap as we cannot assist without seeing the primary evidence.

Title: TFL yellow box-Streatham contravention 31
Post by: gumph69 on July 23, 2023, 06:16:16 pm

https://ibb.co/dcdB8nb

Good day
I barely recall this moment. I am usually very careful about getting caught in junction boxes. On this day I recall somehow having my vision blocked or someone cutting in or, perhaps, I just kept creeping along until the traffic ahead of me cleared
At any rate, the evidence is video-based but I see no links to view the video. I cannot argue against evidence that I cannot see
Also, the 14-day 'discount'period, it is stated, begins from the date of notice, not from the date of service
As well, the closest Ground for representations mention 'why there was no faiure to drive the vehicle in the way shown on the sign'. Obviously, with a junction box, there is no 'sign'
Thank you for you attention