Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: zigzag123 on July 10, 2024, 07:22:07 am
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Once when heading east on the District line I was doing the crossword.
3 AC - Mad in Essex (7).
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Hello all, just letting you know, finally got a reply back from the Borough after a year from the alleged incidents.
Glad to say both PCNs will not be pursued any further.
Thanks again for all your help and guidance.
🙂
zigzag, did you make contact with LBBD via email or did they write to you?
Can you share a redacted photo of their letter?
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I once got a ticket from Barking
For doing some illegal parking.
I challenged in time
But they took their time.
This certainly needs some remarking.
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::)
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You let the Barking dog lie. 8)
Love it !!
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You let the Barking dog lie. 8)
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Hello all, just letting you know, finally got a reply back from the Borough after a year from the alleged incidents.
Glad to say both PCNs will not be pursued any further.
Thanks again for all your help and guidance.
🙂
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:)
I meant to say both OfRs have been revoked and both charge certificates have been cancelled.
Even if I wanted to make contact with the Borough, there seems to be no means of communication with them, can't call them and speak to a human...only if you want to PAY via automated machine... can't visit them, only to write to them....but they seem to not even communicate back with their existing processes put in place anyways.....
I will let the dog sleep.....for now....and wait....
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Yes.
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process
Let the sleeping dog lie for the moment.
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Hello all, response from County Court:
Both OfRs have been cancelled and Charge Certicates have been revoked.
It stated to make contact with London Borough of Barking & Dagenham in regards to the outcome for now. However it also states that London Borough of Dagenham will pursue the matter if needed to.
I will post both responses soon.
I'm assuming I wait for the borough to make contact.
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All, I have managed to get to a Solicitor today and with their assistance and being witness signed the PE9 form, left the 'Add reasons' section blank as recommended, scanned, digitalised and sent to TEC@justice.gov.uk.... Oh with a fee of £20...of course... 🥴
So now the TE9 form for the previous Order for Recovery has been sent on the 21/11/2024 and today 23/11/2024 I have sent the PE9 form...... Phewwwwww 🙃
THANK YOU ALL AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR HELP AND WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED AS WELL....
I hope TEC acknowledge both OfRs that I made reps within 28 days for both PCN's to London Borough Barking & Dagenham.... Thanks again...
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On the page 'In Time Statutory Declaration Notes'
It says 'You must file the Statutory Declaration within 36 days of registration with the Traffic Enforcement Centre'
Am I assuming that I have 36 days from 11/12/2024?? Because on Form PE2 its states 21 days of the postmark which the envelope does not have as far I can see.... Confused.... :-\
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I will try and get to a county court or solicitor on Tuesday 26th for witness signage. Should be ok within the time frame even though they had sent this OfR late.
Once all signed in the presence of Solicitor or officer at County Court, apologies I don't know if Solicitor are they able to scan the document to send direct to TEC@justice.gov.uk??
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I've not put anything yet, trying to figure out how to edit the online version of the PE3 form.
Every time I try to open or edit the format of the tick boxes are missing.... Either way I will still need a physical copy because it requires the form witnessed too.
I think i'll use the postal form PE3, take it to the county court to witness the signage. Then send it via post via recorded delivery or scan it back to digital and send?
I will leave the 'My reasons' section blank too
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AFAIK, you don't need to put anything in the 'Reasons' box if the declaration is In-Time. However what you've put looks OK to me
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Section 'My Reasons are (give full reasons)
I submitted representation to London Borough Barking & Dagenham on the 12 July 2024 in regards to this PCN Date of Contravention '23/06/2024' however did not receive a rejection notice. I have receipt of the email confirmation too stating that I will be informed of the outcome in writing. I believe there has been a break down in communication because I did not receive either NoR the statutory response from the council as they just failed to respond.
Anything else I could include??
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https://ibb.co/DkdxMZx
https://ibb.co/TYKSnPV
https://ibb.co/5YW9y5r
https://ibb.co/mhXx40Q
https://ibb.co/RjgXCQ1
https://ibb.co/CH9GKDc
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Hello, I've just received the other Order for Recovery for the other PCN. Todays date is 22/11/2024, it states 'YOU MUST WITHIN 21 Days (of the date shown on the postmark) EITHER Dates 11/12/2024.
This OfR has been delivered a bit late I believe but still have a window to can send form PE3.
Anybody could help with with this one?
It states I would need to be in the presence of a Commissioner of Oaths (eg Solicitor), a justice of the Peace (at any Magistrate Court) or an officer of your local County Court before sending a declaration to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at the above address.. also states you may have to pay a fee, however is there a free service at County Court as stated in the Declaration Notes section??
I have attached the files
https://ibb.co/DkdxMZx
https://ibb.co/TYKSnPV
https://ibb.co/5YW9y5r
https://ibb.co/mhXx40Q
https://ibb.co/RjgXCQ1
https://ibb.co/CH9GKDc
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Thanks You H C Andersen... Will do when back from work.
Much appreciated
Have a lovely rest of your day. :)
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This is not a guessing game. Hurdles are not put in the way to trap the unwary.
It is a standard procedure executed '00s or possibly more times a week.
Your cases are not unique.
Simply follow instructions as in:
Tick the box(made reps etc);
Sign;
Return to TEC as instructed, preferably online.
Simples!
The SD procedure is slightly different, but we'll guide when you're there.
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:)
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Ok is this how I should proceed?
1. Fill in the form TE9 Witness Statement - unpaid penalty charge using the information from the TE3 form.
2. Tick one box in this case the second tick box
'I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice'
3. Sign the 'Statement of Truth'
Date it
Print full name
Send it via post or go online to TEC@justice.gov.uk ??
Thanks
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Hello all,
Received the Order for Recovery for one of the PCNs only today.
Attached are the files:
(https://i.ibb.co/6n6Tc82/1000010015.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j67Q9zd)
(https://i.ibb.co/k21XMqz/1000010018.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DfpQLwm)
(https://i.ibb.co/Z6xNVqG/1000010019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mC4SGfb)
(https://i.ibb.co/J7Qmn59/1000010020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mq8bJ63)
(https://i.ibb.co/Gv3Rttz/1000010022.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ns8jnnx)
(https://i.ibb.co/mb5tPRc/1000010023.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2W3PpFk)
(https://i.ibb.co/pKSB2Nh/1000010024.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lg3XSBN)
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Thanks H C Andersen, much appreciated.
:)
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Yes, except that one PCN is moving traffic, one is parking.
They have different but very similar procedures:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process
Hopefully the council will move things forward as stated.
Come back here when you receive the first OfR or within 2 weeks whichever is the earlier.
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Wait for the OFR, I guess as mentioned in this process:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process
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Hello, an update: the council have sent two more letters, now stating due to be registered as a debt in the Northampton County Court and full payment is required to the council within 7 days from the date of the letters.
(https://i.ibb.co/6HXJpSY/1724439051157.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fkDGKWM)
(https://i.ibb.co/7jcFbK0/1724439051212.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ck5dxQs)
(https://i.ibb.co/MZG86qt/1724439051264.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VJQHmXz)
(https://i.ibb.co/Mg3mfSw/1724439051317.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3TLnvd6)(https://i.ibb.co/09gdt5K/PXL-20240913-154534065.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3FDLzKv)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZgNpnhb/PXL-20240913-154647647.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gW6L5Dc)
(https://i.ibb.co/bb39XdM/PXL-20240913-154703575.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z65vZfT)
Still no response from the council in regards to my challenge letter either.
I'm assuming I still have to wait for the adjudicator process where I can show that I had responded in good time to the council with my confirmation emails and submission of screenshots and that they failed to respond right?
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Thanks for your response again, a lot to digest.... :-\
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When you say provide copy of your reps? What does that mean?
The Orders for Recovery will include a Witness Statement and Statutory Declaration respectively. You would complete these - tick a box and get this witnessed if required- and submit to the Traffic Enforcement Centre who gave the authority the right to issue the OfRs solely on their say-so that they had followed set procedure.
Your WS/SD are your way of stating to TEC that there has been a breakdown in communication because you did not receive either NoR(the statutory response from the council).
Given these conflicting views TEC would revoke the OfRs and direct the council to cancel their CCs following which the council must refer the matter to the adjudicator for their decision on the whole issue. But the adjudicator has the power to direct you to provide proof of your reps having been made in time..
hence ..you would provide the adjudicator with a copy of your reps and that these were submitted in time.
By the way, a CC does not state that you did not make reps in time does it. It gives several reasons why it might have been issued - but sadly the law does not require the council to state which applies, which is odd but there we are.
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Thanks Hippocrates
Will do... :)
I'll keep all updated.
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Wait for the OFRs as HCA advised.
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
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I have attached the letters that I have received today.... :(
https://ibb.co/fkDGKWM
https://ibb.co/ck5dxQs
https://ibb.co/VJQHmXz
https://ibb.co/3TLnvd6
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Thanks H C Andersen.
When you say provide copy of your reps? What does that mean?
I was waiting for a response from the two challenges which submitted and I did not receive a response via post as Barking & Dagenham stated. If I had received a response and lets just say worst case scenario that they rejected my plea in the letter that I submitted I would have reacted to it. Its seems that their process is a mess.
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The processes.
For parking contraventions:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process
For moving traffic:
https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/moving-traffic-pcn-enforcement-process
Either way, you have to wait for another notice to be served - Order for Recovery-and then conduct similar but different tick-box exercises to get both matters referred to the adjudicator at the pre-CC rates and who is likely to require you to provide copies of your reps.
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I have email confirmations too of the challenge.
Any help would be appreciated, its states 'you must pay this increased amount before the end of the period of 14 days, beginning with the date on which this Charge Certificate was served (22/08/2024)
Then they say if we do not receive payment within the specified period, we may apply to register the Charge Certificate as a debt at the county court and issue an Order for Recovery, adding a further £10.00 court cost to the amount due......
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Screenshots of challenged Submissions on 12/07/2024
https://ibb.co/93QXPNj
https://ibb.co/wL9F1mL
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Hello I did say I keep you everybody updated, well I have received two letters from Barking & Dagenham. They have issued two charge certificates stating that I have not responded to the Penalty Charge Notice and have now threatened me with increased amounts and Enforcement Agents!! :(
I challenged both PCN's on the 12/07/24 and waited patiently for a response and never did receive anything via post or email.
Any ideas what channel of response?
I cant even contact them to speak to a human.
Shall I challenge again, stating that I had initially challenged within 14 days from the original date of notice which was 03/07/2024 and that I have email and screenshots to confirm that and I did and state that I not received any correspondents since then.
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Will do..
Thank You all for your help and ill keep you updated too. :)
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According to the back of the PCN, you may make reps online. Keep screenshots of the submission and acknowledgement.
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Thanks again, alright to send via email?
Send via whatever on-line facility they offer, and keep the response you get. Posting via mail is not recommended.
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Thanks again, alright to send via email?
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Ok with the above?
Looks OK to me
PS: Be more careful when you use a sat-nav again in a big city, because they are never up-to-date.
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Ok with the above?
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Dear London Borough of Barking & Dagenham,
I write in regards to the penalty charge notices (PCNs) Barking & Dagenham 52M Failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicles on station Parade (Barking), the vehicle haven been seen and recorded by road-side cameras in the hours of 20:11hrs on 23/06/2024 and 47J Stopped on restricted bus stop or stand (Camera Enforcement) recorded in the hours of 20:27hrs on the 23/06/2024.
I accept that the council has the right to issue the PCNs for the contraventions. I would however like to ask the borough to be mindful of proportionality in pursuing its statutory rights in this case. As can be seen from the PCNs the contraventions occurred on the same day and 15 minutes within minutes of each other in the evening of Sunday 20:11hrs and 20:26hrs as per the image captures, also being totally unfamiliar with the area, first time driving through the stretch of road named Station parade, guided by a SAT NAV is rather a disproportionate penalty for contraventions only 15 minutes apart, trying to find somewhere to park to pick up a friend from the Barking Station, and dropping off where signage is not the best and can be misinterpreted as everybody perceives and digests information differently.
I would appreciate if Barking & Dagenham council would exercise some discretion on the occasion, as with this add further financial burden.
The objective of the PCN, which is to enforce moving traffic restrictions, is adequately served by one PCN. I am obviously now aware of the restrictions and will not be making the same mistake again, so it could be said that the lesson has been learnt.
In the circumstances, I invite the council to consider the totality of the circumstances and allow me to pay one of the penalty charges at the discounted rate of £55, and cancelling the other PCN.
Yours faithfully,
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Best if you submit reps for both PCNs citing total unfamiliarity with the area and point out it is a rather disproportionate penalty for contraventions only 15 minutes apart, when you were trying to find somewhere to park to pick up a friend from the station. You might get lucky and get one cancelled. Main thing is not to just cough-up t he discount
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Do I have a case to challenge on just on signage?
I have had a look at the other posts regarding 'Station Parade' and yes I agree it seems this is being used as a cash cow route!
With 2 different PCNs on the same day, 15 mins apart, I guess a polite letter via post informing them if they can consider using some discretion, maybe cancel one of them? 1st time offence may be? :-\
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Any discretion from the borough?
Signage was not clear?
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(https://i.ibb.co/L0jVBhL/PXL-20240710-091337533.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4FvhCg6)
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Location
https://maps.app.goo.gl/p7ZJ5eqeS9jBNmPu9
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Date of Notice:
03/07/2024
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Both alleged incidents occurred on the 23/06/2024
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working on it
Thanks John
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Please repost page 1 with only the name & address redacted: we don't even know the date!
And a new thread for the 2nd PCN....
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(https://i.ibb.co/sgk5zdD/1000007568.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Jc0xgwb)
(https://i.ibb.co/QJFqsQB/1000007569.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cycpz35)
(https://i.ibb.co/41dKYY5/1000007570.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XY8j33v)
(https://i.ibb.co/CPmg2C3/1000007571.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XYj180r)
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Hello John unable to upload file(s)
States the upload folder is full
Are you following the instructions in the 'Read This First' link I gave? Upload the images to Imgur or ibb.co and post the BBCodes here.
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Hello John unable to upload file(s)
States the upload folder is full
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Thanks John, will do. :)
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For meaningful advice with your representations (not yet at appeal stage) please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up here all sides of the PCN, redacting only name and address, a copy of the video, and a GSV link to the location.
As the two PCNs are for different alleged offences, it may be advisable to start a second thread for second PCN, with the information for that one as above.
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Hello,
I have received 2 PCNs from Barking & Dagenham Borough both within 30 minutes.
Date of Notice for both: 03/07/2024
1st PCN alleged contravention: 52M Failing to comply with prohibition on certain types of vehicle (motor vehicles) occurred @ 20:11. Station Parade
2nd PCN alleged parking contravention: 47J Stopped on a restricted bus stop or stand (Camera Enforcement) occurred @ 20:27
Is there any grounds of appeal? or the borough using their discretion, 1st time the vehicle was driven there too.... :(
The driver went to pick up a friend form Barking Station unfortunately did not see the signage.