Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Novice on July 07, 2024, 08:40:49 pm

Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: b789 on August 05, 2024, 12:37:45 am
Quote from: Novice on August 04, 2024, 03:35:17 pm
Do I therefore have any legs left to stand on here or do you think it would be wise just to pay it?

That’s what they want you to think. They are hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will just give up and pay them out of ignorance and fear.

You don’t appear to have grasped the situation. They don’t know who the driver is. They are not allowed to infer or assume that the keeper must also be the driver. The keeper is under no legal obligation to identify the driver.

You are dealing with an unregulated private parking company. They are not an authority that can “fine” or “penalise” you. You have not committed any “offence”. You have simply been “invoiced”.

If they had relied on PoFA and fully complied with the requirements, they could have transferred liability for the “invoice” from the unknown driver to the known keeper. They haven’t complied with PoFA and so, cannot transfer liability to the keeper.

The burden of proof is on them to identify the driver and chase that person for the alleged debt. How do you think they can identify the driver if the keeper does not tell them and is under no legal obligation to do so?

So, are you low-hanging fruit or happy to pay scammers?
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: DWMB2 on August 04, 2024, 10:00:45 pm
Quote from: Novice on August 04, 2024, 03:35:17 pm
It sounds like they don't think they need to comply with the PoFA here since it wasn't stated explicitly on the NtK.
They're right that they don't need to - no parking company is compelled to comply with PoFA. But if they do not, they cannot recover the charge from you as the keeper. Not that they or IAS will admit that, they'll probably conclude they're allowed to assume you're the driver. If it got to court, a judge should be more amenable to your arguments.

It's up to you if you bother with the IAS. They're often regarded as a kangaroo court. I have seen them accept some appeals though, when there's a clear lack of PoFA compliance.
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: Novice on August 04, 2024, 03:35:17 pm
Hi all, I've now received the outcome of my appeal which you can see on here:

https://imgur.com/a/Tnlsb6t

It sounds like they don't think they need to comply with the PoFA here since it wasn't stated explicitly on the NtK.

Do I therefore have any legs left to stand on here or do you think it would be wise just to pay it?

Many thanks
Novice
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: Novice on July 15, 2024, 08:59:00 pm
I can confirm that I have NOT sent the appeal yet and it appears to be a very good job that I haven't!

B789 - thank you so much for your advice and draft, I will send this as my appeal and let you know as and when I get any updates.
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: b789 on July 11, 2024, 03:15:23 pm
Quote from: Novice on July 07, 2024, 08:40:49 pm
I've started drafting an appeal, which I’ll follow up with, along with the redacted PCN document.
It’d be great to hear any thoughts on the above, and whether you agree or if I’m barking up the wrong tree.
As above, please tell us that is your draft and you haven't sent it yet. It is full off incorrect information which will alert the PPC that they are dealing with someone who doesn't know what they are on about and only encourage them to push on with this.

You did not receive a Penalty Charge Notice which is very different from a Parking Charge Notice, which is what you received and has nothing to do with the Traffic Management Act 2004 nor the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 (which is revoked).

If you are going to research, then you should be studying the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted) and the IPC Code of Practice v9 (https://irp.cdn-website.com/262226a6/files/uploaded/IPC%20Code%20of%20PracticeV9%20V4.pdf)

Hopefully, you haven't sent that appeal yet. Not that it will make much of a difference overall as I have already explained earlier. This is likely to go all the way to court if it ever gets that far.

If you want to send an appeal that shows you are not low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree, ripe for picking then send this:

This is an appeal by the registered keeper - No driver details will be given. Please do NOT try the trick of asking for driver details in order to get around the fact your NtK does not comply with PoFA. Your NtK was sent more than 56 days after the NtD was affixed to the vehicle and you have therefore failed to fully comply with the strict requirements of PoFA section 8(4)(b) and 8(5) in order to hold myself, the keeper, liable for the charge.

As there is no keeper liability, therefore, liability cannot flow from the driver to the keeper. The registered keeper cannot be presumed or inferred to have been the driver, nor pursued under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency. Your PCN can only hold the driver liable. So you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN and remove my personal information from your database.

Should you and/or and the IAS kangaroo court fail to cancel the PCN, you are put on notice that any continued attempt after receipt of this appeal to demand moneys from myself, the registered keeper, will be considered harassment, as you know full well that I cannot be liable for the charge. Please bear this fact in mind should you decide to try and progress this all the way to court.
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: The Rookie on July 11, 2024, 12:02:30 pm
So have you actually sent the appeal you have in the images?

Have you checked the V5c registration document to see if the details are all correct, all to often people move and forget to update them.
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: Novice on July 11, 2024, 10:22:34 am
Many thanks for your responses and patience.

Link to documents:

https://imgur.com/a/Tnlsb6t

Google Street View:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/nZuuzWvNNgzugNb5A
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: b789 on July 11, 2024, 02:40:18 am
Before you send any appeal, please show us what you intend to send.

Whilst we still haven’t seen the NtK, it seems likely that if what you received is the first NtK since thenNtD was left on the vehicle, it is far too late for the PPC to be able to rely on PoFA to hold the known keeper liable for the unknown drivers charge.

You are wrong in your assumptions regarding PCNs issued by unregulated private parking companies on private land. No PPC is obliged to comply with thee requirements of PoFA. The only reason they would comply with PoFA is if they want to be able to transfer liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

The PPC has no idea who the unknown driver was unless the known keeper blabs it, inadvertently or otherwise. If the NtK is the original and was not received within 56 days of the alleged parking event, then the PPC has not fully complied with the strict requirements of PoFA and cannot transfer liability for the charge to the keeper.

An appeal should only be from the keeper. However, if this is an IPC member company, it is unlikely any appeal will be successful. This is most likely going to have to go the full course to a county court hearing where the only truly independent arbiter, a judge, would decide whether the keeper owes a debt to the PPC.

Of course, without knowing which PPC is involved, it is difficult to know if they are particularly litigious. In many cases, even if it does go as far as a claim being made, it is likely that it is discontinued before it ever gets to a hearing. Even if it went to a hearing, there is a fair chance that the defendant would win anyway.
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: DWMB2 on July 10, 2024, 10:35:30 pm
Opening post amended.

Photos still required.
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: b789 on July 08, 2024, 04:19:04 am
Some of your assumptions are not quite right. You parked on private land. There is no obligation on the operator to issue PCNs that comply with PoFA. However, as the driver is unknown to them, if they want to get their money from the known keeper, they must comply fully with all the requirements of PoFA.

As we have not yet seen the Notice to Driver (NtD) and the subsequent Notice to Keeper (NtK), we cannot be sure whether they have fully complied with PoFA to hold you, the known keeper liable for the alleged sins of the unknown driver.

Whilst you have stated that they did not serve the NtK until 142 days after the original NtD, if that is actually the case, then they have not fully complied with all the requirements of PoFA and cannot hold you, the known keeper liable. The only way they could hold you liable is if, as you have already done to us, revealed yourself to also have been the driver.

This is why we always advise everyone to never reveal the identity of the driver, inadvertently or otherwise, until you’ve had advice from us and we have seen all necessary correspondence relating to the case. So, please show us the NtD and the NtK, suitably redacted but showing all dates and times.

You’ve already been advised in the previous post how to do that.
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: DWMB2 on July 07, 2024, 09:02:05 pm
Quote from: Novice on July 07, 2024, 08:58:31 pm
Apologies, I seem to be having some issues with uploading the relevant supporting images
Please take a look at the following thread which includes advice on using third party sites to upload images: READ THIS FIRST - Private Parking Charges Forum guide (https://www.ftla.uk/private-parking-tickets/read-this-first-private-parking-charges-forum-guide/)
Title: Re: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: Novice on July 07, 2024, 08:58:31 pm
Apologies, I seem to be having some issues with uploading the relevant supporting images despite all being well under 10820 KBs - @admin, please could you support?
Title: PCN IPC – Failed to pay – Liverpool, Jamaica Street Car Park
Post by: Novice on July 07, 2024, 08:40:49 pm