Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Firestone on July 06, 2024, 11:08:25 pm
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Very well done ! It is very rare we see councils give way on receipt of informal reps. So may some small wiff of fairness and probity is creeping into the Harrow parking bastion !
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Just to let you all know that i won my appeal at the first. informal stage. Unexpected! I used my sub 1000 word appeal, as the number of characters were limited, with a view to using HC Andersen's great draft at a potential later stage. What i can't understand however, is the letter i received from the LBOH said that i had entered a totally different registration number which bore no resemblance to that of my car. I don't know where they got that from? I was mistaken just over one numerical digit and that my app history proves it!
Does this website have a 'templates' section with appropriate filing for the various parking issues? If my draft worked, then it might work for others and it might be worth filing it somewhere. Also HCAndersen's great draft, although not used, is very good would also be worth saving as no doubt he spent a lot of time on that!
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At 11.13 on ** the CEO saw my car and, quite correctly, started observations because they could not find a matching VRM on their payment system. They issued a PCN at 11.25.
I have proof, see enclosed, that once I discovered my error I paid for a another session which commenced at 11.32.
Ordinarily the authority might think that this was a driver buying parking time after finding a PCN, however, I would ask you to consider my other evidence which shows that I originally paid £** to park at 11.11 except that being all fingers and thumbs I entered LO65OWM instead of LO66OWM. LO65OWM does not exist, see copy of DVLA website enclosed. I would add that its non-existence did not stop the council's PBP service provider accepting the money which makes me wonder whether it would have accepted payment for VRMs NCC-1701 or HOP2IT? **
In any event, a mistake on my part for which I apologise and one which when I discovered it I started to rectify immediately and which, on this occasion, I would ask the authority to forgive, especially as a second payment was made. *
*- what an odd situation where the private parking industry, which is often lambasted, only charges a token 'parking charge' where minor keying errors are made and yet here it's all or nothing.
**- you can google these!
Wait for others.
Thank-you H C Anderson for providing a draft of another great potential response i could use - i can see that you took a lot of time to do this. As a sci-fi fan I laughed when i read reg no NCC-1701 ! They probably would have accepted payment. I know that if I challenge them on this, they would probably say that they have to accept foreign cars and they would not have access to their countries DVLCs to cross check a car's existence before accepting payments!
Due to only 1000 characters being allowed to informally appeal at this stage, i am minded to use my draft, already aaproved by Incandescant's (with rage), for the basic appeal now and use your great script for the more formal appeal later on upon receipt of the NTO after 28 days inviting either full payment of the non-discounted rate or formal appeal. Chances are, as indicated by Incandescant with rage, 99% of informal appeals are automatically rejected.
So thank-you very much. At the moment there have been no more suggestions from anyone else.
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At 11.13 on ** the CEO saw my car and, quite correctly, started observations because they could not find a matching VRM on their payment system. They issued a PCN at 11.25.
I have proof, see enclosed, that once I discovered my error I paid for a another session which commenced at 11.32.
Ordinarily the authority might think that this was a driver buying parking time after finding a PCN, however, I would ask you to consider my other evidence which shows that I originally paid £** to park at 11.11 except that being all fingers and thumbs I entered LO65OWM instead of LO66OWM. LO65OWM does not exist, see copy of DVLA website enclosed. I would add that its non-existence did not stop the council's PBP service provider accepting the money which makes me wonder whether it would have accepted payment for VRMs NCC-1701 or HOP2IT? **
In any event, a mistake on my part for which I apologise and one which when I discovered it I started to rectify immediately and which, on this occasion, I would ask the authority to forgive, especially as a second payment was made. *
*- what an odd situation where the private parking industry, which is often lambasted, only charges a token 'parking charge' where minor keying errors are made and yet here it's all or nothing.
**- you can google these!
Wait for others.
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Looks OK to me. Don't be disappointed if they reject, because councils reject over 99% of informal reps, knowing that most people then just cough up. It's called "gaming the system".
Post up their reply when you get it.
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I think your best bet is to make a plea for discretion, explaining everything you've explained to us, and asking that they cancel the penalty in light of the fact that you paid the parking charge not once but twice.
Put a draft on here in the first instance and we'll tidy it up for you.
Dear Sir/Madam
I am sending in this appeal to ask you if you might kindly cancel the PCN (No: HR75275897) as the contravention of being ‘parked without paying’ did not actually occur.
This was the first time that I had used the PayByPhone app, however I did purchase a parking period which began at 11:11AM for two hours. Regrettably I discovered some 15 minutes later, that payment had been made on a slightly incorrect reg no - LO65OWM. My phone is very small and of course the numbers 5 & 6 on the virtual keyboard are next to each other and it’s very easy to hit the other key. Being unable to edit the entry, I immediately began the process of purchasing another time period on LO66OWM, but due to the process and the program ‘hanging' whilst ‘processing’, the new time period didn’t become active until 11:32AM for another two hours. I would therefore be most grateful if you would cancel the PCN as the mis-entry on the first time period was an honest mistake and I've now paid twice.
The appeal must be no more than 1000 words - this above is on that limit!
Thank-you
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I think your best bet is to make a plea for discretion, explaining everything you've explained to us, and asking that they cancel the penalty in light of the fact that you paid the parking charge not once but twice.
Put a draft on here in the first instance and we'll tidy it up for you.
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Well the start time of the 2nd session was at 11.32, so I reckon I started the process at around 5 minutes before that, say 11:27AM. I had to input another car on the app, then go through the rigmarole of choosing time, adding payment from saved bank card & refreshing the screen - I had terrible trouble with the screen hanging despite good data connection - it was stuck 'processing' on both sessions for ages.
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At what time did you start the process of purchasing the second session?
Council photos:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZXzFDTl.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8FTJdzF.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Vuu5FpY.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/K9lpk5w.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IRotupa.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QFtSy4M.jpeg)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) Traffic Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kd9CegpvyC_QdvR-WnZTaXKAMaIyztYW/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 1) Traffic Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uWwGUMxH7SxQ-oVbqXBiCGJ7dkwHokGL/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 2) Traffic Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UeatqtIA6MastiXnVU688rkq9HAonrDt/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 3) Traffic Order 2019 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OWTtKtc9oCrOgUC_vG1xh6CFL1W70pgp/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 4) Traffic Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vjgm3BpoXjvX48wocSVhhlEVY3RFWjgW/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 6) Traffic Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R_CMJgCc66uZl-LCQw5F7Lv-NbWUvaDj/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 6) Traffic Order 2022 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IyE7npnsu-gSuuDbS7pSid94xSmD_Hkm/view)
The Harrow (Off Street Parking Places) (Amendment No. 7) Traffic Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XYEdOXyUKSwpYldPy0S-2pTw4iL7U2ym/view)
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Yes., unfortunately my phone (iPhone SE, based on the model 5) is very small and on the virtual keyboard the 5 & 6 numerical keys are obviously next to each other horizontally across the screen. Very easy to hit the wrong one. I find it hard to believe that the council wouldn’t accept an honest mistake like this.
I too have this problem with mobile phone keyboards. I have quite wide fingers and often press the wrong key several times before I get the right one. I simply can't use apps for banking or anything critical on a mobile phone. The world expects everyone to be tech savy, they don't take into account people's fingers differ in size, eyesight fades with age etc.and there's not always a mobile signal anyway.
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Info requested by H C Anderson
First paid session was for 2-hours starting at 11:11AM
Second paid session was for 2-hours starting at 11:32AM
I have a screen shot saved from the app showing both virtual tickets running side by side
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First paid session was for 2-hours starting at 11:11AM
Second paid session was for 2-hours starting at 11:32AM
I have a screen shot saved from the app showing both virtual tickets running side by side
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Have a read of the Statutory Guidance here: -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/civil-enforcement-of-parking-contraventions/guidance-for-local-authorities-on-enforcing-parking-restrictions#considering-challenges-representations-and-appeals
Councils are legally obliged, (Section 87, Traffic Management Act 2004), to "have regard to" the guidance when operating their enforcement regime.
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Obs made between 11.13 and 11.25.
Your first paid session started at ***?
Your second session started at ***?
Details pl.
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Yes., unfortunately my phone (iPhone SE, based on the model 5) is very small and on the virtual keyboard the 5 & 6 numerical keys are obviously next to each other horizontally across the screen. Very easy to hit the wrong one. I find it hard to believe that the council wouldn’t accept an honest mistake like this.
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Entering a "O" instead of a "0", or vice versa is common, and there is a robust appeal for that based on the font that must be used for a numberplate but a "5" instead of a "6" is different. However, I think you still have a good case.
Wait a bit for others to comment. You have the right in law to take them to the adjudicators, but must, of course, risk the full penalty if you do.
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Are there not recent guidelines issued to councils that they must accept appeals at the first stage where it can be shown that the a small error had been such as one digit wrong on the number plate. I also have a screenshot saved from my phone showing both virtual tickets ‘active’ and that the time had been paid for with the first one? I assume that the screenshot can be sent as an attachment to an online appeal?
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For convenience:
(https://i.imgur.com/7QaukCS.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KCJJ6zl.jpeg)
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Please read this and update your post accordingly: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
From your narrative, it does seem you have the grounds of a good representation to submit to the council, because you recognised your error and corrected it quite soon after parking. However, councils can be very venal and rapacious, so don't be too hopeful. In addition, it's best not to be confrontational with what will be an informal challenge.
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I drove to Harrow today and parked in a multi-storey car park. Had to use ‘PayByPhone’ app on my handheld for the first time. After downloading app and registering the car, I paid for two hours of time. After approximately 15 minutes into the paid time, I discovered looking at the app, I had got one digit of my car registration plate wrong, putting in a 5 instead of a 6 - the keys are very close on my handheld. I immediately tried to edit the registration number, but couldn’t, so I registered the correct number by having to put in another car (without correct plate number) and paid another £1.20 (frustrating as I doubt I will get this back). Upon returning to my car a PCN was attached to my windscreen. The timing of the PCN issue was only minutes after the commencement of the first payment on the slightly incorrect registration number and unfortunately before the start of the timings for the 2nd payment for the correct number. I presume I can appeal and also can I get back the 2nd payment as obviously that was in vain?
PCN LINKS - Front & Rear: https://imgur.com/a/hU9ZBaD