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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: taffer87 on July 05, 2024, 06:18:58 pm

Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 19, 2024, 10:07:10 am
Thank you all for the help.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on November 18, 2024, 08:54:06 pm
Remove the references to collateral challenges, the ground of procedural impropriety is a statutory ground of appeal in its own right, so there is no need to refer to collateral challenges.

From a quick skim your draft looks fine.

Don't forget the adjudicator cannot look up any TPT cases, so you'll have to download the non-London cases and upload them to the tribunal portal as items of evidence.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on November 18, 2024, 04:40:18 pm
Sorry OP, it's asking me to sign in.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: John U.K. on November 18, 2024, 03:16:31 pm
Include in point 3 or 4 the paragraphs from the Chief Adjudicator's Annual Report - Reply#40 above.


Style point - where you repeat each point from page 1 in the main body of the text embolden and perhaps also underline it it to make fast reading by the Adj easier,
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 18, 2024, 01:43:46 pm
@cp8759 tagging correct username now - please see above link for draft appeal to tribunal
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 18, 2024, 12:39:56 pm
@cp87859
@H C Andersen
@John U.K.

please see the draft tribunal appeal here - any input would be greatly appreciated over the next day and then I shall submit by end of tomorrow ideally or, at the latest Wednesday.

Thank you in advance.

Regards

https://we.tl/t-0MvETliFxU
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 15, 2024, 09:59:58 am
27 November - will draft something this weekend and share. I will aim to upload to the Tribunal website by 20 November
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: John U.K. on November 15, 2024, 08:04:36 am
Quote
Hi thank you, that's perfect.

I did spot the Paypoint difference but not others, will include that too.

Thanks everyone for the help.

Post yr revised draft here for comment before submitting.  Date of hearing?
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 15, 2024, 07:34:19 am
@taffer87 you have a slam-dunk case on the transfer of liability, as there is no lease agreement and no notice of acceptance to VWFS. Without that notice of acceptance, there was no statutory power to serve an NTO on you because only the cancellation of a previous NTO gives the council a power to serve a further NTO on another person.

Have a look at the cases here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037) that come up when you search "EA failed to prove cancellation of previous PCN in chain", "EA must follow correct procedure to transfer liability", "EA must procedure evidence to transfer liability" and "no copy of purported lease agreement in evidence", all the legal arguments you need to make are there.

I believe most of those cases are for moving traffic so you might need to go through the parking legislation to find the equivalent provisions, but the substance is exactly the same.

Also how good are you at spot the difference? The back of the PCN in the evidence pack is not a perfect copy of the PCN served on you, the first difference I found was that your copy has a "PayPoint Outlet or Post Office" option but the filed copy does not, I suspect there will be more discrepancies. Have a look at rows 771 to 800 of the above spreadsheet for cases on this point.

This is one of those cases that is virtually impossible to lose if it's argued correctly.

Hi thank you, that's perfect.

I did spot the Paypoint difference but not others, will include that too.

Thanks everyone for the help.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on November 14, 2024, 11:40:48 pm
@taffer87 you have a slam-dunk case on the transfer of liability, as there is no lease agreement and no notice of acceptance to VWFS. Without that notice of acceptance, there was no statutory power to serve an NTO on you because only the cancellation of a previous NTO gives the council a power to serve a further NTO on another person.

Have a look at the cases here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=642784037#gid=642784037) that come up when you search "EA failed to prove cancellation of previous PCN in chain", "EA must follow correct procedure to transfer liability", "EA must procedure evidence to transfer liability" and "no copy of purported lease agreement in evidence", all the legal arguments you need to make are there.

I believe most of those cases are for moving traffic so you might need to go through the parking legislation to find the equivalent provisions, but the substance is exactly the same.

Also how good are you at spot the difference? The back of the PCN in the evidence pack is not a perfect copy of the PCN served on you, the first difference I found was that your copy has a "PayPoint Outlet or Post Office" option but the filed copy does not, I suspect there will be more discrepancies. Have a look at rows 771 to 800 of the above spreadsheet for cases on this point.

This is one of those cases that is virtually impossible to lose if it's argued correctly.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on November 14, 2024, 03:24:23 pm
Read my extract again.

Transfer of liability
I have reported last year on issues concerning the transfer of liability when the registered keeper of a hired vehicle seeks to transfer of liability to the hirers.
Adjudicators have found that despite the restrictive statutory provisions which are re-stated in case law,


Frankly I don't see how any adjudicator may not apply the law.

And..the report was to London Councils, the tribunal's and therefore the adjudicators' employers. Which adjudicator wants to throw themselves under a TfL bus by not applying the law and also undermine the Chief Adjudicator's report by taking a contrary position?

Of course it's possible that a hearing might be adjourned for the authority to provide this, but frankly given that one of the principles of the tribunal is efficiency why should they? The authority knows full well what's required, so include it? 
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 14, 2024, 02:52:53 pm

They do have a letter from VWFS..

...despite the restrictive statutory provisions which are re-stated in case law parties are not grasping[the transfer of liability mandatory] provisions.


I gave you the link to the 'restrictive statutory provisions'.

The letter from VWFS does NOT meet these IMO.

Where's the hire agreement, where's your signed statement(at the time of hiring) as regards this type of liability??

Isn't the missing notice of acceptance to VWFS in the evidence pack the key point? Which means they can't issue another NTO.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 14, 2024, 11:15:47 am

They do have a letter from VWFS..

...despite the restrictive statutory provisions which are re-stated in case law parties are not grasping[the transfer of liability mandatory] provisions.


I gave you the link to the 'restrictive statutory provisions'.

The letter from VWFS does NOT meet these IMO.

Where's the hire agreement, where's your signed statement(at the time of hiring) as regards this type of liability??

Yes, agreed I have actually won a PCN last year on this very basis where Anthony chan was the adjudicator BUT other adjudicators don't always agree with this one so this one is a bit of a hit or a miss. With the right adjudicator this is a winning point inc. the chief adjudicator.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on November 14, 2024, 10:53:29 am

They do have a letter from VWFS..

...despite the restrictive statutory provisions which are re-stated in case law parties are not grasping[the transfer of liability mandatory] provisions.


I gave you the link to the 'restrictive statutory provisions'.

The letter from VWFS does NOT meet these IMO.

Where's the hire agreement, where's your signed statement(at the time of hiring) as regards this type of liability??
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 14, 2024, 10:37:03 am
They do have a letter from VWFS..

Here is the redacted full evidence pack.. hope this helps.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/o47rcaeqn91rexndk8gn4/Evidence-bundle_Redacted.pdf?rlkey=nbq129efciuz8prcn45m2zwjf&st=w6cgo5lw&dl=0
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on November 14, 2024, 10:32:43 am
If there isn't evidence to support you being regarded as the 'owner' then the appeal must be allowed IMO because the default position is that the registered keeper is to be regarded as the 'owner'. 

Reg. 6 covers the point:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2022/71/regulation/6/made
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 14, 2024, 09:48:27 am
@cp8759 I have shared with you via DM as its not redacted. Will try and share a redacted version here later today.,
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on November 13, 2024, 09:55:28 pm
@taffer87 please post the entire evidence pack, it's really hard to work out what's what with only a few pieces of the puzzle. It might be easier if you put it all in a google drive or dropbox folder and share the link, rather than posting loads of screenshots on here.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 13, 2024, 09:41:09 am
@taffer87 please show us all pages of evidence item B.

@cp8759 here is full section B. Only traffic order was missing in previous upload.

(https://i.ibb.co/Wp0pXdD/Evidence-pack-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yBpBCMh)
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on November 12, 2024, 10:03:04 pm
@taffer87 please show us all pages of evidence item B.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: John U.K. on November 12, 2024, 03:05:07 pm
@HCAnderson

Quote
Transfer of liability
I have reported last year on issues concerning the transfer of liability when the
registered keeper of a hired vehicle seeks to transfer of liability to the hirers.
Adjudicators have found that despite the restrictive statutory provisions which are
re-stated in case law, parties are still not grasping provisions. Adjudicators noted that
some authorities have allowed transfer even when the required evidence has not
been provided. Adjudicators are then required to deal with appellants’ submissions
that their representations have been accepted by some but not other authorities.
Adjudicators would urge hire companies and authorities to pay greater attention to
the legal issues and consider the evidential requirements for a transfer before the
matter reaches the appeal stage.

I opened the link in Firefox, highlighted, right clicked and copied in the usual way.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on November 12, 2024, 01:29:19 pm
OP, I think your further reps should start with the first-level issue i.e. whether you may be regarded as the owner for the purposes of the TMA.

Read this: https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2024-05/tec_agenda_reports_-_18_october_2023_2_2.pdf

It's the Chief Adjudicator's, Anthony Chan's, Annual Report to London Councils. See page 13, Transfer of Liability.

(I can't seem to copy from the report..if anyone knows how this can be done pl advise).

..Adjudicators have found that despite the restrictive statutory provisions which are re-stated in case law parties are still not grasping provisions.
..Adjudicators have noticed that some authorities have allowed transfer even when the required evidence has not been provided.


To mimic the pompous language used by the authority....

The Appellant would like to bring to the adjudicator's attention the comments of Adjudicator Chan in his 2022/2023 annual report to the Transport and Environment Committee of London Councils where he highlighted that 'despite the restrictive statutory provisions which are re-stated in case law parties are not grasping[the transfer of liability mandatory] provisions. 

On this point, you would invite the adjudicator to scrutinise the authority's evidence that establishes, as opposed to merely implies, that the statutory provisions have been complied with by both the registered keeper and the authority which is a pre-condition to the hirer being considered the 'owner' for regulatory purposes. You would submit that absent proof of a legal transfer of liability then enforcement against you as 'owner' is a procedural impropriety.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: Enceladus on November 12, 2024, 12:21:53 pm
You could mention the matter of the expired permit. It looks like Newham are attempting to imply that even if the disabled bay was not correctly positioned on the ground in compliance with the traffic order, then you were still in contravention as you were parked where a Resident's Parking Permit was required.

Hoever you only have to answer to the contravention alleged and not some similar contravention. The PCN says "Parked in a permit space or zone without a valid virtual permit or clearly displaying a valid physical permit where required (dedicated disabled bay)". So the allegation is specific to a "disabled bay", of some flavour. Not just any Resident Permit Only bays.

I suggest you mark up a copy of the map that's in the evidence pack, show where you were actually parked, in relation to the the disabled bay they say is shown on the map. Scan and upload the marked up map in your evidence pack, to support your assertion that the bay is not where it should be.

Also in your opening post you've put the below. Did you include that in your submission to the Tribunal? It's worth a shot but I believe there is permission for the sign. See do they produce the authorisation. Actually is it in the evidence pack? If so then please post it up. That said, to the best of my knowledge we've never won a case against Newham challenging this sign where there is also a DISABLED legend on the carriageway. Maybe somebody else can produce such a case?

"Ground 3

The sign governing the bay is not contained within The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 nor have the Council obtained DfT permission to use it. There is no provision within the legislation to use the term "Residents" nor a permit identifier for anything other than a dedicated bay reserved for an individual disabled person.Therefore the traffic sign is a nullity and cannot be enforced, making the PCN invalid."
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 12, 2024, 11:09:33 am
Also tagging @H C Andersen and @cp8759

All thanks so much for your help. I have received the council evidence bundle and extracted case summary and formal reps here. Interestingly they still have not included the notice of acceptance sent to VWFS against VWFS' representations in their evidence bundle. Also they continue to completely ignore the majority of the points in my formal reps other than the first point.

Please if you could kindly guide / assist in me making a case to tribunal. Hearing is in 2 weeks time and I will do it via phone.

Most bizarrely they have also incorrectly stated that my permit for the canning town CT zone has expired as it was renewed and is active and I can provide proof of this.

Regards



(https://i.ibb.co/G7VCTcP/redacted-evidence-bundle-extract-inc-formal-reps.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R2CQyzH)
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on November 09, 2024, 12:55:08 am
Nothing comes to you until a minimum of 7 days before the hearing.
No sure what you mean by that, I've got some cases where the tribunal scheduled the case months in advance (typically where I've been lucky enough to get a Saturday hearing slot, which get booked up months in advance) and I have had evidence packs from some authorities as much as 2 / 3 month prior to the hearing.

I've also had cases where the authority submitted its evidence a couple of days before the hearing and the adjudicator wouldn't disregard it and simply adjourned the hearing to give me time to respond.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on November 09, 2024, 12:52:59 am
Is it also the case that the authority must submit (to the adjudicator) within 7 days post service of notice of appeal by the adjudicator the original PCN and related representations? If authority doesn't do that and there is nothing in appeal portal then is that a good enough point on its own under the Appeal regulations?
Yes and no. I have got a couple of decisions on this point where I had other things to argue, but most adjudicators would use their powers to grant the council an extension of time (even if no extension has been sought). It's certainly not something an argument I would rely on, especially where there's something more solid to go on as is the case here.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on November 08, 2024, 02:25:58 pm
I'm not certain what point you're making.

Nothing comes to you until a minimum of 7 days before the hearing. As I understand it, the purpose of what you've posted (which by the way is the draft SI and not the final version which is here:https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/schedule/1) is to ensure that the administrative loop is closed- remember, all that the tribunal know is that you have submitted a form/completed online requesting a hearing to dispute what you claim is a PCN and NOR at which point they don't know if this is proper or not (e.g. that you're not an armchair anarchist trying to throw the tribunal into disarray with specious applications). Sending this to the authority and getting the underlying specified docs closes this loop and means they're dealing with a proper application.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 08, 2024, 01:57:16 pm
@cp8759

@H C Andersen

Any views on the above 7 day rule and any past cases on this point please?
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 06, 2024, 03:16:47 pm
"Action upon receipt of notice of appeal and copy of such notice
3.—(1) Upon receiving a notice of appeal the proper officer must—

(a)send an acknowledgement of its receipt to the appellant, and

(b)enter particulars of the appeal in the register.

(2) If the proper officer is satisfied that the notice of appeal is made in accordance with paragraph 2, the proper officer must send to the enforcement authority—

(a)a copy of the notice of appeal, and

(b)the directions extending the period for appealing (if any).

(3) Where an enforcement authority receives a copy of a notice of appeal sent to it under sub-paragraph (2), the authority must, within seven days of the day on which it receives that copy, deliver to the proper officer of a copy of each of the following—

(a)the original representations,

(b)the relevant penalty charge notice (if any), and

(c)the notice of rejection.
"

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348231564
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 06, 2024, 02:46:01 pm
Is it also the case that the authority must submit (to the adjudicator) within 7 days post service of notice of appeal by the adjudicator the original PCN and related representations? If authority doesn't do that and there is nothing in appeal portal then is that a good enough point on its own under the Appeal regulations?
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 01, 2024, 11:42:16 am
Reg. 5 of the 'Appeals' regs:

Representations against the enforcement notice
5.—(1) The recipient may make representations against the enforcement notice to the enforcement authority which served it on the recipient.

5(2) The representations must be—

(a)made in the form determined by the enforcement authority, and

(b)to either or both of the following effects—

(i)that in relation to the alleged contravention, one or more of the grounds specified in paragraph (4) apply;

(ii)that, whether or not any of those grounds apply, there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the enforcement authority should cancel the penalty charge and refund any sum paid to it on account of the penalty charge.


Initiating an appeal

2.—(1) An appeal must be made by delivering a notice of appeal to the proper officer.

(2) A notice of appeal—

(a)must be in writing and signed by—

(i)the appellant, or

(ii)a person authorised to do so by the appellant,

(b)must state the name and address at which the appellant wishes documents in connection with the appeal to be sent,

(c)must state the date and any reference number of the disputed decision and the name of the enforcement authority, and

(d)may include any representations which the appellant desires to make in addition to the original representations.



Further representations by the parties
4.—(1) Any party may deliver representations in relation to the matters referred to in regulation 5(2)(b), 8(5) or 11(3), as appropriate in the circumstances, to the proper officer at any time before the appeal is determined.


Thank you
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on November 01, 2024, 11:33:47 am
Reg. 5 of the 'Appeals' regs:

Representations against the enforcement notice
5.—(1) The recipient may make representations against the enforcement notice to the enforcement authority which served it on the recipient.

5(2) The representations must be—

(a)made in the form determined by the enforcement authority, and

(b)to either or both of the following effects—

(i)that in relation to the alleged contravention, one or more of the grounds specified in paragraph (4) apply;

(ii)that, whether or not any of those grounds apply, there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the enforcement authority should cancel the penalty charge and refund any sum paid to it on account of the penalty charge.


Initiating an appeal

2.—(1) An appeal must be made by delivering a notice of appeal to the proper officer.

(2) A notice of appeal—

(a)must be in writing and signed by—

(i)the appellant, or

(ii)a person authorised to do so by the appellant,

(b)must state the name and address at which the appellant wishes documents in connection with the appeal to be sent,

(c)must state the date and any reference number of the disputed decision and the name of the enforcement authority, and

(d)may include any representations which the appellant desires to make in addition to the original representations.



Further representations by the parties
4.—(1) Any party may deliver representations in relation to the matters referred to in regulation 5(2)(b), 8(5) or 11(3), as appropriate in the circumstances, to the proper officer at any time before the appeal is determined.



Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on November 01, 2024, 10:15:08 am
IMO, the NOR is flawed in that it does not advise you correctly of your rights to appeal. Indeed, using the power which the authority has it has added a statement which is in flagrant disregard to and contrary to the regulations.

A NOR must give the following information:

(8) If the enforcement authority does not accept that there are compelling reasons of a kind mentioned in regulation 8(5)(b) or that any of the grounds specified in regulation 8(6) apply, the enforcement authority’s decision notice must—

(a)inform R of the right to appeal to an adjudicator under regulation 10,

(b)indicate the nature of an adjudicator’s power to award costs, and

(c)describe the form and manner in which such an appeal is required to be made.

The NOR states the following:

'You have 28 days beginning with this Notice of Rejection to do this[register an appeal].'

It further states that:

'If neither payment nor appeal is made before the end of the 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice of rejection a charge certificate may be served increasing the charge by 50%. It will then be too late to appeal further.  

However, regulation 9(8)(c) above requires a NOR to 'describe the form and manner in which such an appeal [to the adjudicator] is required to be made.'

Regulation 10 deals with an Appeal to an adjudicator against an enforcement authority’s decision to reject representations and provides that:
10.—(1) A person (“P”) may appeal to an adjudicator against an enforcement authority’s decision not to accept that—

(a)any of the grounds specified in regulation 8(6) apply, or

(b)there are compelling reasons of the kind mentioned in regulation 8(5)(b).

(2) An appeal under this regulation must be made within—

(a)the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the decision notice under regulation 9(4)(b) informing P of P’s right to appeal to an adjudicator under this regulation, or

(b)such longer period as the adjudicator may allow.


I submit that not only have the authority failed to comply regulation 9(8)(c) they have also stated the exact opposite of what is required to be included, namely:

That once a charge certificate has been served 'it will then be too late to appeal' when the regulations provide that the adjudicator is the ultimate arbiter of the time allowed for an appeal to be made, not the authority.

Thank you. This is indeed very helpful.

Is there something in TMA about reasons for the formal representation/appeal as the council website said to pick "one" reason but I saw the London tribunal website allows you to choose as many of the statutory reasons as you like.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on October 30, 2024, 06:27:21 pm
IMO, the NOR is flawed in that it does not advise you correctly of your rights to appeal. Indeed, using the power which the authority has it has added a statement which is in flagrant disregard to and contrary to the regulations.

A NOR must give the following information:

(8) If the enforcement authority does not accept that there are compelling reasons of a kind mentioned in regulation 8(5)(b) or that any of the grounds specified in regulation 8(6) apply, the enforcement authority’s decision notice must—

(a)inform R of the right to appeal to an adjudicator under regulation 10,

(b)indicate the nature of an adjudicator’s power to award costs, and

(c)describe the form and manner in which such an appeal is required to be made.

The NOR states the following:

'You have 28 days beginning with this Notice of Rejection to do this[register an appeal].'

It further states that:

'If neither payment nor appeal is made before the end of the 28 days beginning with the date of service of this notice of rejection a charge certificate may be served increasing the charge by 50%. It will then be too late to appeal further.  

However, regulation 9(8)(c) above requires a NOR to 'describe the form and manner in which such an appeal [to the adjudicator] is required to be made.'

Regulation 10 deals with an Appeal to an adjudicator against an enforcement authority’s decision to reject representations and provides that:
10.—(1) A person (“P”) may appeal to an adjudicator against an enforcement authority’s decision not to accept that—

(a)any of the grounds specified in regulation 8(6) apply, or

(b)there are compelling reasons of the kind mentioned in regulation 8(5)(b).

(2) An appeal under this regulation must be made within—

(a)the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the decision notice under regulation 9(4)(b) informing P of P’s right to appeal to an adjudicator under this regulation, or

(b)such longer period as the adjudicator may allow.


I submit that not only have the authority failed to comply regulation 9(8)(c) they have also stated the exact opposite of what is required to be included, namely:

That once a charge certificate has been served 'it will then be too late to appeal' when the regulations provide that the adjudicator is the ultimate arbiter of the time allowed for an appeal to be made, not the authority.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on October 30, 2024, 03:40:46 pm
@taffer87 this is really simple : if you search the two traffic orders for "Mundy Road" there is only one hit at item 45 of Schedule 2 to the 2018 order (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ATdZ50zBmaeni9L9IeqijTCwJH0oZZC/view):

Munday Road, the east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of a point in line with the common boundary of Nos. 16 and 18 Munday Road southward for a distance of 6.1 metres.

However the common boundary is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/4WqbDMwLoEFwzvGo7 and if you zoom out, it's quite obvious that this is not where the bay has been painted, it starts at least two car length further south than it should, so no part of your car is in the area designated by that order.


I respectfully disagree with this, I think the bay is in exactly the right place.  If you zoom out and take the point of the boundary between nos. 16 and 18 and then you go 8.1 metres south (to the right on GSV), then that takes you to the exact point where the bay starts.  I fear you maybe misread the order to mean the bay should start on that boundary line, not 8.1 metres (2 car lengths) away from it.

Thank you. Are there any other points I should be making in my tribunal appeal then? For the formal reps I had included with CP said as well as repeated the points from informal challenge.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on October 30, 2024, 03:08:00 pm
Thanks all. Does anyone see anything wrong with rejection letter or indeed the options given for formal representation (photos of both couple of posts up from here)
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: Martyn21uk on October 29, 2024, 12:09:46 pm
@taffer87 this is really simple : if you search the two traffic orders for "Mundy Road" there is only one hit at item 45 of Schedule 2 to the 2018 order (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ATdZ50zBmaeni9L9IeqijTCwJH0oZZC/view):

Munday Road, the east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of a point in line with the common boundary of Nos. 16 and 18 Munday Road southward for a distance of 6.1 metres.

However the common boundary is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/4WqbDMwLoEFwzvGo7 and if you zoom out, it's quite obvious that this is not where the bay has been painted, it starts at least two car length further south than it should, so no part of your car is in the area designated by that order.


I respectfully disagree with this, I think the bay is in exactly the right place.  If you zoom out and take the point of the boundary between nos. 16 and 18 and then you go 8.1 metres south (to the right on GSV), then that takes you to the exact point where the bay starts.  I fear you maybe misread the order to mean the bay should start on that boundary line, not 8.1 metres (2 car lengths) away from it.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on October 29, 2024, 11:41:44 am
Thanks I will represent myself as have done it a couple of times before. Would be great to know if their notice of rejection creates any new avenues for the London Tribunal. Same for the Newham website reason options for formal representations.

I will upload evidence pack from council too when it comes.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2024, 11:02:55 am
@taffer87 drop me a PM if you'd like me to represent you at the tribunal.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on October 29, 2024, 10:55:04 am
@cp8759 here is the response from council. I have already submitted a London Tribunal appeal stating that "I rely on my formal representations and will provide additional detail and points on review of the council evidence pack.

(https://i.ibb.co/pzWtjM5/Redacted-Notice-of-rejection-Copy-Redacted.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Pv30TL)

Also I am including the image from council website when submitting the formal representations which only allows one option to be chosen (in case this or any other issues are present in the appeal reasons shown).

(https://i.ibb.co/HY7Dpdw/council-website-only-allows-one-option.png) (https://ibb.co/Npx6nSD)

Thank you so much for any help with this from you and experienced members.

I will post the evidence pack from council when available (appeal is in a months time and have chosen in-person which I will change to phone hearing).



Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on October 04, 2024, 10:30:47 am
@taffer87 this is really simple : if you search the two traffic orders for "Mundy Road" there is only one hit at item 45 of Schedule 2 to the 2018 order (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ATdZ50zBmaeni9L9IeqijTCwJH0oZZC/view):

Munday Road, the east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of a point in line with the common boundary of Nos. 16 and 18 Munday Road southward for a distance of 6.1 metres.

However the common boundary is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/4WqbDMwLoEFwzvGo7 and if you zoom out, it's quite obvious that this is not where the bay has been painted, it starts at least two car length further south than it should, so no part of your car is in the area designated by that order.

In the circumstances we can cut out all the woffle from the informal representations and just go with this:

Dear London Borough of Nehwam,

The alleged contravention did not occur, this is because The Newham (Canning Town) (Disabled Resident Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 2017 (which I suspect you have not bothered to read) does not designate any parking place at the location where my car was parked. The order designates a parking place on "Munday Road, the east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of a point in line with the common boundary of Nos. 16 and 18 Munday Road southward for a distance of 6.1 metres", but if you have a look on Google Street view at https://maps.app.goo.gl/mvqxwbHQ21MHV2UY9 you will see the bay has been painted at least two car lengths further south than it should have. The result is that despite the signage, my car was not actually parked on a section of road designated by that order.

I invite you to actually read your own traffic order and apply your mind to the issues I have raised, if you issue a generic rejection with all the usual templated drivel about how the circumstances raised do not amount to an exemption or sufficient mitigation, I will apply to London Tribunals for a costs order on the ground that the notice of rejection is wholly unreasonable. This will apply even if you do not contest the appeal.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and take a screenshot of the confirmation page.

Awesome thank you @cp8759. I have sent this. Just to confirm you are referring to the disbaled bay markings which start here not being where the TMO says they should be? https://maps.app.goo.gl/b5dnGUqAe51RvCEb8
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on October 02, 2024, 06:17:31 pm
@taffer87 this is really simple : if you search the two traffic orders for "Mundy Road" there is only one hit at item 45 of Schedule 2 to the 2018 order (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ATdZ50zBmaeni9L9IeqijTCwJH0oZZC/view):

Munday Road, the east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of a point in line with the common boundary of Nos. 16 and 18 Munday Road southward for a distance of 6.1 metres.

However the common boundary is here https://maps.app.goo.gl/4WqbDMwLoEFwzvGo7 and if you zoom out, it's quite obvious that this is not where the bay has been painted, it starts at least two car length further south than it should, so no part of your car is in the area designated by that order.

In the circumstances we can cut out all the woffle from the informal representations and just go with this:

Dear London Borough of Nehwam,

The alleged contravention did not occur, this is because The Newham (Canning Town) (Disabled Resident Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 2017 (which I suspect you have not bothered to read) does not designate any parking place at the location where my car was parked. The order designates a parking place on "Munday Road, the east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of a point in line with the common boundary of Nos. 16 and 18 Munday Road southward for a distance of 6.1 metres", but if you have a look on Google Street view at https://maps.app.goo.gl/mvqxwbHQ21MHV2UY9 you will see the bay has been painted at least two car lengths further south than it should have. The result is that despite the signage, my car was not actually parked on a section of road designated by that order.

I invite you to actually read your own traffic order and apply your mind to the issues I have raised, if you issue a generic rejection with all the usual templated drivel about how the circumstances raised do not amount to an exemption or sufficient mitigation, I will apply to London Tribunals for a costs order on the ground that the notice of rejection is wholly unreasonable. This will apply even if you do not contest the appeal.

Yours faithfully,

Send this online and take a screenshot of the confirmation page.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on October 02, 2024, 06:02:16 pm
Thank you. Already posted all council photos in the very first and second posts so there should hopefully be no need.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: John U.K. on October 02, 2024, 05:58:14 pm
Please re-instate/give the Reg Mark and PCN number(s)
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on October 02, 2024, 05:46:58 pm
I have finally received the NTO in my name and address after they sent to lease co who is the RK and lease co wrote a simple letter stating car is on a long term lease of 3 year with me. Lease co has not received a notice of acceptance but council
may still say they sent

All and @cp8759 can you please help in written reps?

 (https://i.ibb.co/935Mrrn/IMG-4156.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XkRwCCX)
(https://i.ibb.co/D7sNYch/IMG-4155.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LCbMrjm)
(https://i.ibb.co/jvJ3tK7/IMG-4157.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JR3rZLX)
(https://i.ibb.co/GJ0Hqtn/IMG-4158.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xsDFNfX)
(https://i.ibb.co/zJvGMRw/IMG-4159.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xHTJkjQ)
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on August 06, 2024, 01:40:19 pm
Here are searchable versions of The Newham (Canning Town) (Disabled Resident Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j65G1TUhOz8BgPZjYRkw7H2lWpkYvVuL/view) and The Newham (Canning Town) (Disabled Resident Parking Places) (No. 1, 2017) (Amendment No. 1) Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ATdZ50zBmaeni9L9IeqijTCwJH0oZZC/view).

@taffer87 let us know when you get the notice to owner and I'll help with the formal representations.


Thank you, will post NTO when I receive it in my name - could be a while as will go to lease company first in their name

Here is the council response to informal challenge. Informal challenge I submitted also included for completeness.

Informal challenge:

"1. The council enforcement officer did not follow the required observation period to see if an exempt activity was taking place and hence for the breach of council policy the PCN. Council observation policy mandates a minimum of 5 minute observation period but the enforcement officer issued the PCN instantly

The policy can be found here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/downloads/file/3926/newhamparkingpolicyprocedures

This shows on page 51/81 of the pdf page numbers (or page 48 of the bottom right page numbers) that a mandatory observation period of 5 minutes is required before an enforcement officer can issue a PCN under Newham Policy for Code 16 Parking in a permit space without displaying a valid permit.

If the council disagrees with this please provide the full observation policy which allows an enforcement officer to issue a PCN for code 16 without any observation period at all as the PCN was incorrectly issued instantly, so an informed decision regarding next steps can be taken


2. This is only an advisory bay so no PCN can be issued in any case, please provide the full Traffic Management Order that allows the council to issue a PCN against this particular contravention on this bay including the full list of exempt activities

3. The location stated in the PCN "OS 14" is incorrect and not clear

4. The sign governing the bay is not contained within The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 nor have the Council obtained DfT permission to use it. There is no provision within the legislation to use the term "Residents" nor a permit identifier for anything other than a dedicated bay reserved for an individual disabled person. Therefore the traffic sign is a nullity and cannot be enforced, making the PCN invalid.

If the council disagrees please provide the full dispensation/approval from DFT so an informed decision regarding next steps can be taken.

5.The Council's intention of reserving disabled bays for residents only is discriminatory (against non-resident disabled people) and I would refer you to both the Equality Act 2010 and moreso to The Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) Regulations 2023.
Therefore the traffic management rationale giving rise to the TMO is fatally flawed to the extent that the Council actions are ultra vires. In such circumstances enforcement of this bay cannot proceed.
6. The bay markings are extremely faded making it hard for drivers to be aware there are different policies / restrictions for different parts of the bay.
7. Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual specifies at 13.6.8. that:
“Where two bay markings, associated with different conditions, are sited next to each other there should normally be a gap of about 100 mm between them. If adjacent bays would normally have different widths, the greatest width should be adopted for all to avoid a potentially confusing stepped edge.”

However there is no gap in the bay markings at all. There should be double edge markings to differentiate the “resident disabled permit holder only” bay from the others. What the council purport to have done is created a single bay with different conditions, which is not a permitted layout. If the bay had been laid out correctly drivers would be on notice that they were parking in a different bay potentially subject to different conditions. Thus the council cannot issue a PCN at this location.

If the council believes they are complying with 13.6.8 or have dispensation or rationale for not complying then please provide this in writing so that an informed decision can be taken regarding the next steps.

8. Council should use its discretion to cancel the PCN this being the first offence for this driver."


(https://i.ibb.co/cwYPW5d/Council-response-to-informal-challenge-Page1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Ksk0N3)
(https://i.ibb.co/WvTnvVq/Council-response-to-informal-challenge-Page2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Dfq4frs)
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: mogul87 on August 06, 2024, 01:37:13 pm
Following
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on August 01, 2024, 07:26:58 pm
Here are searchable versions of The Newham (Canning Town) (Disabled Resident Parking Places) (No. 1) Order 2017 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j65G1TUhOz8BgPZjYRkw7H2lWpkYvVuL/view) and The Newham (Canning Town) (Disabled Resident Parking Places) (No. 1, 2017) (Amendment No. 1) Order 2018 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ATdZ50zBmaeni9L9IeqijTCwJH0oZZC/view).

@taffer87 let us know when you get the notice to owner and I'll help with the formal representations.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on July 31, 2024, 06:16:57 pm
still waiting for the council to respond to the informal challenge

In the meantime I have received the Traffic orders via a FOI request.

The order says the dedicated disabled bay will be at "Munday Road, the east side, from a point 8.1 metres south of a point in line wth the common boundary of Nos. 16 and 18 Munday Road southward for a distance of 6.1 metres"

Will appreciate if someone here can let me know if the TMO adds any other points of defense

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ntif32ctpxtqp1cg6pca5/2017-112-DRPH-Signed-copy.pdf?rlkey=fwh1kx7mggbhznxvib9snbkgu&st=sybilmd0&dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5hmfo3ta1w3phlj32rg9g/2018-71-Canning-Town-Disabled-Resident-Bays-Order-Signed-copy.pdf?rlkey=xi72sd25ggget2c7wpwo55n9x&st=ym2te27o&dl=0

Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: mogul87 on July 08, 2024, 11:35:24 am
Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf) specifies at 13.6.8. that:

Where two bay markings, associated with different conditions, are sited next to each other there should normally be a gap of about 100 mm between them. If adjacent bays would normally have different widths, the greatest width should be adopted for all to avoid a potentially confusing stepped edge.

What the council purport to have done is created a single bay with different conditions, which is not a permitted layout. If the bay had been laid out correctly you would have been on notice that you were parking in a different bay potentially subject to different conditions.

Thanks will include this too
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: cp8759 on July 08, 2024, 01:01:37 am
Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782724/traffic-signs-manual-chapter-03.pdf) specifies at 13.6.8. that:

Where two bay markings, associated with different conditions, are sited next to each other there should normally be a gap of about 100 mm between them. If adjacent bays would normally have different widths, the greatest width should be adopted for all to avoid a potentially confusing stepped edge.

What the council purport to have done is created a single bay with different conditions, which is not a permitted layout. If the bay had been laid out correctly you would have been on notice that you were parking in a different bay potentially subject to different conditions.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on July 07, 2024, 12:16:48 am
For me the 3 things i would concentrate on would be

1 the bay markings. There should be double edge markings to differentiate the bay from the others If you hold a permit bay for that bay why would you look for a different sign

the disabled legend being faded

The TMO does it accommodate a disabled resident bay or is it designated purely as a resident bay

 

Thank you.

1. Is there any specific regulation I can point to re the first point or tribunal cases etc?

2. For the faded disabed marking on the road, will leave it for the formal reps but unclear if its a strong point TBH - good to get your views?

3. I have requested the TMO via a FOI request as well an email I found for newham
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on July 06, 2024, 11:38:54 pm
Picking upon PMB's point about bay markings, OP just stand back and look at the array of markings and signs, it's a mess.

Firstly, in order to review this it needs to be said IMO you were parked on the wrong side of the road therefore it's not what's behind you car which applies, it's what's in front!

Using GSV, the sequence starts o/s no. 18 with a single line parking place line. This means that the bay is continuous and not sub-divided by intra-bay markings into separate bays - standard for permit bays. Then two cars' lengths into the bay there's an internal dividing mark which is not accompanied by a traffic sign. This looks like a c**k-up. It could mean the end of the permit holder bay which would fit the single marking at the beginning. But this begs the question, if it's the end then what the hell is the next bay because there isn't a traffic sign to convey the new restriction.

But there is..if the next bay is a 24/7 disabled bay then as I understand it an upright sign isn't required, a road marking would do. So looking at this in the direction of travel of traffic it means that you were parked in a disabled bay. Not a permit bay.

Then when one reaches the end of this bay there's another end-bay marking with a traffic sign which does not include an arrow. This cannot therefore apply before the sign's reached, only after. Which means that the DPB is the next bay.

So, if the road marking is intended, it's a 24/7 disabled bay and it's the wrong contravention. But if not, it's a permit holder's bay, and you've got a permit!

IMO.

Thank you. This indeed is very helpful. Do you think this has any chance at succeeding at tribunal as don’t think council will accept this. Any precedents from tribunal or references to specific regulations willl be greatly appreciated
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on July 06, 2024, 03:25:56 pm
Picking upon PMB's point about bay markings, OP just stand back and look at the array of markings and signs, it's a mess.

Firstly, in order to review this it needs to be said IMO you were parked on the wrong side of the road therefore it's not what's behind you car which applies, it's what's in front!

Using GSV, the sequence starts o/s no. 18 with a single line parking place line. This means that the bay is continuous and not sub-divided by intra-bay markings into separate bays - standard for permit bays. Then two cars' lengths into the bay there's an internal dividing mark which is not accompanied by a traffic sign. This looks like a c**k-up. It could mean the end of the permit holder bay which would fit the single marking at the beginning. But this begs the question, if it's the end then what the hell is the next bay because there isn't a traffic sign to convey the new restriction.

But there is..if the next bay is a 24/7 disabled bay then as I understand it an upright sign isn't required, a road marking would do. So looking at this in the direction of travel of traffic it means that you were parked in a disabled bay. Not a permit bay.

Then when one reaches the end of this bay there's another end-bay marking with a traffic sign which does not include an arrow. This cannot therefore apply before the sign's reached, only after. Which means that the DPB is the next bay.

So, if the road marking is intended, it's a 24/7 disabled bay and it's the wrong contravention. But if not, it's a permit holder's bay, and you've got a permit!

IMO.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: Pastmybest on July 06, 2024, 12:21:55 pm
For me the 3 things i would concentrate on would be

1 the bay markings. There should be double edge markings to differentiate the bay from the others If you hold a permit bay for that bay why would you look for a different sign

the disabled legend being faded

The TMO does it accommodate a disabled resident bay or is it designated purely as a resident bay

 
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on July 06, 2024, 12:13:24 pm
Can we pl nail this type of bay.

It is NOT a 'disabled bay', it is a bay reserved to specified permit holders. In this case 'Disabled Resident' with the permit identifier CT.

As regards permit bays, the Traffic Sign etc. Regs provide wording variants which include:

3. A type or types of user may be included and, where the user is a type of permit holder, a permit identifier may be included.

4. A legend provided for at 3 above may be varied by the addition of “only” or “only at all times”


No authorisation is needed IMO. If the council have created in a traffic order a type of permit called 'Disabled Resident Permit' then they are perfectly entitled to do so IMO and the sign is correct.

'Disabled' is not a permitted road marking for this bay - but it looks as if it's being allowed to fade away.

OP, your point regarding observation would seem to be relevant, which is why I suspect you introduced 5 minutes into your narrative for how long you parked, but whether this could win the day I don't know.

I suspected so and you appear correct but let’s see what council says (most likely nothing specific).

given the lease agreement I have I am quite happy to take it all the way as very confident they (council) will mess up in any case so this is just to get the ball rolling


No flaws in PCN itself?

The observation period is council policy but good to understand if there is any statutory guidance or regs for observation period too or grace period at the start. Unclear why the officer issued the permit instantly without waiting to observe as required.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: H C Andersen on July 06, 2024, 11:47:20 am
Can we pl nail this type of bay.

It is NOT a 'disabled bay', it is a bay reserved to specified permit holders. In this case 'Disabled Resident' with the permit identifier CT.

As regards permit bays, the Traffic Sign etc. Regs provide wording variants which include:

3. A type or types of user may be included and, where the user is a type of permit holder, a permit identifier may be included.

4. A legend provided for at 3 above may be varied by the addition of “only” or “only at all times”


No authorisation is needed IMO. If the council have created in a traffic order a type of permit called 'Disabled Resident Permit' then they are perfectly entitled to do so IMO and the sign is correct.

'Disabled' is not a permitted road marking for this bay - but it looks as if it's being allowed to fade away.

OP, your point regarding observation would seem to be relevant, which is why I suspect you introduced 5 minutes into your narrative for how long you parked, but whether this could win the day I don't know.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on July 06, 2024, 09:51:34 am
So here, I think: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QEBZXDapULkaFypA8
Clear sign and road marking.

Any reason for not noticing the sign which would have been right by your car ?

It's just plain stupidity and oversight... TBH as could have parked somewhere else but wasn't focusing as thought it was all a permit zone where I have a permit for.

I am looking at submitting the below informal challenge later today to begin the process.

1. The council enforcement officer did not follow the required observation period to see if an exempt activity was taking place and hence for the breach of council policy the PCN. Council observation policy mandates a minimum of 5 minute observation period but the enforcement officer issued the PCN instantly

The policy can be found here: https://www.newham.gov.uk/downloads/file/3926/newhamparkingpolicyprocedures

This shows on page 51/81 of the pdf page numbers (or page 48 of the bottom right page numbers) that a mandatory observation period of 5 minutes is required before an enforcement officer can issue a PCN under Newham Policy for Code 16 Parking in a permit space without displaying a valid permit.

If the council disagrees with this please provide the full observation policy which allows an enforcement officer to issue a PCN for code 16 without any observation period at all as the PCN was incorrectly issued instantly, so an informed decision regarding next steps can be taken


2. This is only an advisory bay so no PCN can be issued in any case, please provide the full Traffic Management Order that allows the council to issue a PCN against this particular contravention on this bay including the full list of exempt activities

3. The location stated in the PCN "OS 14" is incorrect and not clear

4. The sign governing the bay is not contained within The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 nor have the Council obtained DfT permission to use it. There is no provision within the legislation to use the term "Residents" nor a permit identifier for anything other than a dedicated bay reserved for an individual disabled person. Therefore the traffic sign is a nullity and cannot be enforced, making the PCN invalid.

If the council disagrees please provide the full dispensation/approval from DFT so an informed decision regarding next steps can be taken.

5.The Council's intention of reserving disabled bays for residents only is discriminatory (against non-resident disabled people) and I would refer you to both the Equality Act 2010 and moreso to The Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) Regulations 2023.
Therefore the traffic management rationale giving rise to the TMO is fatally flawed to the extent that the Council actions are ultra vires. In such circumstances enforcement of this bay cannot proceed.
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: Incandescent on July 06, 2024, 09:36:58 am
So here, I think: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QEBZXDapULkaFypA8
Clear sign and road marking.

Any reason for not noticing the sign which would have been right by your car ?
Title: Re: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on July 05, 2024, 10:48:56 pm
Council photos here:

(https://i.ibb.co/4SVLnGB/Council-photo5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M1CHx4q)
(https://i.ibb.co/xf4X7Tc/Council-photo4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2sbWk4L)
(https://i.ibb.co/q56swQf/Council-photo3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sH7wrYG)
(https://i.ibb.co/wcPhgGD/Council-photo2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sWN9RxL)
(https://i.ibb.co/3mn9mfR/Council-photo1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VYscYHw)
Title: Munday road E16 - London newham - parked on disabled bay by mistake
Post by: taffer87 on July 05, 2024, 06:18:58 pm
parked here by mistake in a rush for 5 minutes and stupidly did not notice it was a disabled bay

https://maps.app.goo.gl/2co76C63t55oZj5f7?g_st=ic

Will upload council photos tomorrow when they are on website. Keen to find out if there are any flaws in the PCN or signage please.

In addition I saw on another post on FTLA that this sign maybe invalid - is that true so I can use something like the below which is copy pasted from ‘guest17’

“ Ground 3

The sign governing the bay is not contained within The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 nor have the Council obtained DfT permission to use it. There is no provision within the legislation to use the term "Residents" nor a permit identifier for anything other than a dedicated bay reserved for an individual disabled person.Therefore the traffic sign is a nullity and cannot be enforced, making the PCN invalid.

Ground 4

The Council's intention of reserving disabled bays for residents only is discriminatory (against non-resident disabled people) and I would refer you to both the Equality Act 2010 and moreso to The Equality Act 2010 (Amendment) Regulations 2023.
Therefore the traffic management rationale giving rise to the TMO is fatally flawed to the extent that the Council actions are ultra vires. In such circumstances enforcement of this bay cannot proceed.”

I have a lease car and there will hopefully be plenty of opportunity to use the normal flaws in the way councils deal with the transfer of liability process +
the argument that the lease agreement doesn’t create a permanent disposition (as it is in a one year extension where i can return at anytime).

pcn photo here

(https://i.ibb.co/dDMw63f/IMG-3223.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NKCdpkF)
(https://i.ibb.co/KWJ1LsQ/IMG-3231.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w4fvwQb)
(https://i.ibb.co/NY64PjQ/IMG-3230.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XJZwgsN)
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