Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: beryll on July 03, 2024, 07:33:07 pm

Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: John U.K. on November 05, 2024, 06:42:37 pm
Dear all I too have received a PCN for this contravention, The paperwork is identical to that previously added here except vehicle and personal details hence not posting images. My question is can an appeal be made on the grounds that had I not gone in the bus lane I would be contravening a very clear keep left sign on the traffic island!?? I approached from Avon crescent and did not see any diversion sign avoiding the bus gate unfortunately the latest google street view is from 2021
Thanks

@ChaddersP
Forum rule is one case per thread.
For help and advice with your case please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and start your own thread with a brief account of the circumstances (by all means include a link to this thread), all sides of the PCN (redact only yr name & address - leave all else in) and a GSV link to the location.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: ChaddersP on November 05, 2024, 06:07:02 pm
Dear all I too have received a PCN for this contravention, The paperwork is identical to that previously added here except vehicle and personal details hence not posting images. My question is can an appeal be made on the grounds that had I not gone in the bus lane I would be contravening a very clear keep left sign on the traffic island!?? I approached from Avon crescent and did not see any diversion sign avoiding the bus gate unfortunately the latest google street view is from 2021
Thanks
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on August 29, 2024, 11:27:57 pm
Although, now seeing the photos on the 3rd page which is what we would have seen approaching from I believe Ferry Road, I can see why we were confused - that small sign with all those different vehicles in - no stop or warning don't go down here if you are 95% of the general public in a car.

Ulgh. Oh well.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on August 29, 2024, 11:16:58 pm
I think I will just pay while I can. Thanks for your help this far guys.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on August 22, 2024, 12:09:43 pm
Received this via email yesterday, 21st August.

https://imgur.com/a/01xsdub

Along with the requested video as an Mkv file - it just shows the car going through the bus gate, as in the images sent with pcn.

Is this worth pursuing or shall I just pay?

Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 24, 2024, 06:07:14 pm
OK - Just sent, with same wording as suggested above. Here's hoping. Thank you.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: Incandescent on July 23, 2024, 12:04:14 pm
@CP8579 what do you think? I should still say the same think in my appeal tomorrow? They haven't responded as of yet to the request for videos.
Whatever you do, don't miss the deadline for submission of reps.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 23, 2024, 11:55:56 am
@CP8579 what do you think? I should still say the same think in my appeal tomorrow? They haven't responded as of yet to the request for videos.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 19, 2024, 01:32:30 am
I haven't made any representations. I'm waiting for 24th July (as suggested above) for their response to the email requesting video footage. Does the fact that they say the following in the automatic email response mean that there is not yet a procedural impropriety?  :

"We'll aim to get back to you within 15 working days, however at busy times this may not be possible."

If I've worked it out correctly - 28 days from Date of Service (27/06/2024) means I would need to make representations by 25/07/2024.

15 working days from submission of video footage request on 10th July means their deadline would be later in the month 31/07/2024.

Does this mean the argument given above of procedural impropriety is invalid?

"Dear Bristol City Council,

I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds of a procedural impropriety. In accordance with the information provided on the PCN I requested a copy of the video footage and this has not been provided. Regulation 3(4) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 provides that such a request must be complied with within a reasonable time, today is the last day on which representations may be made and I have still not received the video.

The authority's failure to comply with my request within a reasonable time amounts to a procedural impropriety.

Yours faithfully,"


Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: cp8759 on July 18, 2024, 07:28:21 pm
@beryll if you've made representations then you don't need to do anything else until you get a reply.

In the meantime I've got hold of The City Council of Bristol (Cumberland Road, Hotwells & Harbourside Ward, City of Bristol) (Reserved Bus Lane) Order 2023 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_clHeYkfgESVRxohycnRgC3SSCjr3E_J/view).
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 10, 2024, 12:13:11 pm
Great idea, thanks so much. I have just done this today 10th July, taking scrrenshots of both suggested screens. Do I need to wait until 26th July now? What was that date of 24th July based on?

Will they pause the time while this is happening so that I will still be able to pay the reduced rate if they do send?

This was the automated response:

Thanks, we've received your enquiry.

We'll aim to get back to you within 15 working days, however at busy times this may not be possible. We'll send our reply to the email address you gave us.  Please don't upload any files again; this message confirms we've received them.

If your query is about Bristol's Clean Air Zone you need to fill in the Clean Air Zone contact form.

 A copy of what you told us is attached.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: cp8759 on July 08, 2024, 11:45:47 pm
@CP8579
Quote

If you get the video please post it on here. If you haven't received a response by 24 July, go to https://ocmlive.xrxpsc.com/Croydon/OCM-FE/OCM/ and make a representation as follows:

For a Bristol PCN???
Whoops, fixed now.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: John U.K. on July 08, 2024, 09:16:39 pm
@CP8579
Quote

If you get the video please post it on here. If you haven't received a response by 24 July, go to https://ocmlive.xrxpsc.com/Croydon/OCM-FE/OCM/ and make a representation as follows:

For a Bristol PCN???
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: cp8759 on July 08, 2024, 09:11:25 pm
Well the PCN says they'll provide the video on request, so let's request it and see what happens.

Go to https://digital.bristol.gov.uk/parking/parking-service-contact-form and pick "other parking query" and make a request:

Dear Bristol City Council,

I am in receipt of PCN OB9292342A which states on page 2 that: "The owner of their nominated representative may make a written request for a copy of the still images or recording produced by the approved device, that in the authority's opinion establishes the contravention".

I hereby request a copy of the video recording produced by the approved device, please could you forward it to my email address either as an attachment, or as a shared file via a link or file sharing portal.

Alternatively, please send me a CD or DVD by post.

Yours faithfully,

Take a screenshot of the completed form before you submit it, and take a screenshot of the confirmation page once the request has been made.

If you get the video please post it on here. If you haven't received a response by 24 July, go to https://ocmlive.xrxpsc.com/bristol/OCM-FE/OCM/ and make a representation as follows:

Dear Bristol City Council,

I challenge liability for this PCN on the grounds of a procedural impropriety. In accordance with the information provided on the PCN I requested a copy of the video footage and this has not been provided. Regulation 3(4) of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 provides that such a request must be complied with within a reasonable time, today is the last day on which representations may be made and I have still not received the video.

The authority's failure to comply with my request within a reasonable time amounts to a procedural impropriety.

Yours faithfully,

Again, make sure to take a screenshot of the confirmation screen. Do not miss the deadline of 24th July, put an alarm or reminder in your phone.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: Hippocrates on July 08, 2024, 09:17:54 am
Edited.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 07, 2024, 11:19:26 pm
Please see new set of pics here

https://imgur.com/a/d3dov8U
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2024, 05:00:31 pm
@beryll there is a possible procedural impropriety but please post the PCN without redacting the PCN number and number plate, there's a coulpe of things I'd like to check.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 04, 2024, 01:45:21 pm
No more pics on website, no. Seems likely it was Hanover Place then, as we just went to look at Banksy piece and then left following sat nav. Would the signage on Hanover Place then not need to be a turn right only sign? Or is the gate further down? So confusing.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: slapdash on July 04, 2024, 01:19:00 pm
The first journey is fine. That's Cumberland road westbound. No problem with that (at least it was fine recently).

The second journey (eastbound) is the one you went through the gate. At the end of Hanover Place you should have turned RIGHT on Cumberland road.you now have to go onto the A370, over the river, and down commercial road (the other side of the river).

I don't know what signage is on Hanover Place (you could have gone out on Gas Ferry, but unlikely unless you parked at SS Great Britain).

Unfortunately I can't get pictures of current signage. I won't be back there for a few months.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: John U.K. on July 04, 2024, 12:26:58 pm
I've updated the image of page 2.

As per the forum guidance, the experts like the PCN number and reg.mark left in for council PCNs (the opposite is true for private parking.
To save reposting the images, just post the missing info.

I was intrigued by the reference to parking in the footnote? Someone here will know.

Any more photos/video on the Council website? Tho' it looks as if these are only available on request, which would take you out of the discount period.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 04, 2024, 12:16:53 pm
Hiya John,

I have posted in the MSE forums before and we were always advised to remove Reg number and PCN number (also repeated on bottomo of each page). I've checked those thoroughly and there are no mistakes, but happy to post again with those showing if preferable?

Hoping this is the right way up now.
https://imgur.com/a/IelniqG
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 04, 2024, 12:10:05 pm
OK - so this day we did two journies that would possibly take us on to Cumberland Road :

1. MShed Museum Bristol ---> Banksy's Girl with a Pearl Earring

2. Banky's Girl with a Pearl Earring ---> Martin Paar Foundation

Looking at the pictures on the PCN, it is likely to be the 2nd as the river is on the right of us, which would indicate we are going Eastbound. Therefore, according to the SatNav we are likely to have entered Cumberland Road via Hanover Place https://maps.app.goo.gl/voUGi4KJnZqxFf8CA or Gas Ferry Road https://maps.app.goo.gl/hMo5a1qZyEtLnCV16  but it could have been anywhere really as there is no indication on the letter and the satellite images on google are not updated.

Also - strangely we received 2 PCNs with the same PCN number and information,, but on two different dates of posting. I am now wondering whether they made a mistake and were actually trying to send us two separate PCNs for going East and Westbound on both routes above!? No idea. Should I just ignore this idea since they have only issued one date of detection and time of detection?

Here are some pictures of both routes:
https://imgur.com/a/0wOFdpr
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: John U.K. on July 04, 2024, 12:04:42 pm
For convenience:

(https://i.imgur.com/8uhIgCA.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/C3aqYXR.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TUcMtHT.jpeg)

Not sure why you have redacted PCN number and reg.mark?

And, which may be important, something at the bottom of page 2. Bristol have form for making mistakes in the 'small print'.

Any chance of your posting page 3 the right way up, please?
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 04, 2024, 11:51:02 am
Thanks for the location info Slapdash. I am not entirely sure which way i was entering from. I believe we were going from location to location as seen in the attached image, so according to satnav, which takes you down this route,  were likely to have entered from Hanover Place going Eastbouind. I am trying to look on google sqtellite maps, but the red painting on the road has not yet been updated on there so its really difficult to tell.

https://imgur.com/a/0wOFdpr
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate // Bristol City Council
Post by: beryll on July 04, 2024, 11:41:38 am
Hiya,

So sorry, I thought I had attached images, but they don't seem to be here. Am following instructions for Imgur

I hope this works.  https://imgur.com/a/9z1K5uQ (https://imgur.com/a/9z1K5uQ)

I only received the PCV yesterday, 3rd July if that makes any difference.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: slapdash on July 04, 2024, 06:51:12 am
122 Cumberland Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Qysee6M1gK6LDHoh9?g_st=ac

It's fairly new. It's here (Eastbound). It was changed a few months ago to include red tarmac. Big blue bus only type signs too.

It was catching about 250 people daily.

Anybody headed to SS Great Britain will be taken Westbound down Cumberland Road - which is fine.

The problem,I think, arises because you can't go back the same way. Google maps won't take you left out of Gas Ferry Road (*), but my ancient inbuilt one will.

There is signage on Gas Ferry road but it probably gets a bit lost in the building work.

(*) May do for some destinations. It doesn't for my normal destination.




Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2024, 10:52:04 pm
@beryll you need to do as John U.K. says if you want to get any meaningful advice.
Title: Re: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: John U.K. on July 03, 2024, 08:00:46 pm
For meaningful advice, please to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and post up all sides of the PCN redacting only name & address with a GSV link to the location.
Title: Cumberland Road Bus Gate
Post by: beryll on July 03, 2024, 07:33:07 pm


Hi. I have just received a PCN for driving through a bus gate at Cumberland Road Bus Gate in Bristol. I do not live in Bristol, only ever visiting once for an event - which is when this incident occured. I have never seen a bus gate before, I did not know what I was looking for. I came at the road from a junction ,so only saw one sign regarding it being for buses only, but I thought the bus gate must be something announcing that there will later be a bus lane or something as I could see cars parked all down the road and an otherwise normal road.  I still don't know what a bus gate is really - is it a bus lane?. I was following my sat nav to get me out of the city so it appears this device didn't pick it up either.

Is there any way to appeal this or shall i just pay it? I have seen that these bus gates are making millions as so many people have no idea what they are and end up driving in to them without realising they are doing something wrong.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmj2k3n3no (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjmmj2k3n3no)

Thanks for any help in advance.