Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: Sarf London on July 03, 2024, 06:09:22 pm

Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: b789 on November 15, 2024, 01:38:52 am
Interesting that the POPLA assessor has found a PoFA flaw that we did not raise. The only flaw we raised with the NtK was the lack of an invitation to the Keeper to pay the charge as per 8(2)(e)(i).

The assessor has gone for failure of 8(2)(g) which wasn’t even brought up.

One to consider for the future.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: DWMB2 on November 14, 2024, 07:49:07 pm
Winner winner, well done, and thanks for the update!

Quote
I notice that the assessor went for POFA compliance on the NtK as a reason to uphold
As one ground to uphold is all that's required, as soon as they find one they don't bother assessing the others. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that where there are multiple potential successful grounds, they pick the 'easiest' one and use that.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on November 14, 2024, 07:36:45 pm
Decision Successful
Assessor Name xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Assessor summary of operator case

The parking operator has issued a parking charge notice as the vehicle was not parked within a marked bay.
Assessor summary of your case

The appellant has raised the following points from their grounds of appeal:
• Driver Liability not established – the Notice to Driver is not compliant with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA).
• Keeper Liability not established - The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with POFA.
• No breach of contract.
• Inadequate signage.
• No evidence of landholder authority.

After reviewing the parking operator’s evidence, the appellant reiterates their grounds of appeal and raises new grounds of appeal advising:
• The operator refers to pre estimate of loss/breach of consumer contracts 1999.
• The copy of the notice to driver does not match the notice to driver that was placed on the vehicle.
• The notice to driver attached to the vehicle had crucial information cut off.
• They were unable to provide the PCN number as this information was cut off.
• The operator has submitted inaccurate and misleading information on the notice to driver.
• The photos show that they were parked in what appeared to be a bay.

The appellant has provided a photo of the PCN that was attached to the windscreen, photos of the appellants vehicle parked on the day of the event and copy of the notice to keeper that the operator issued as evidence to support their appeal. The above evidence will be considered in making my decision.

Assessor supporting rational for decision

I am allowing this appeal, with my reasoning outlined below: When an appeal comes to POPLA the burden of proof begins with the operator to evidence that the PCN has been issued correctly. In this case the operator has issued the PCN to the appellant as the vehicle was not parked within a marked bay. The appellant has identified themselves as the registered keeper of the vehicle. PoFA paragraph 8 (2) (g) states: “inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;” Looking at the Notice to Keeper sent on 5 August 2024 it does not inform the keeper of the discount, it advises that the discounted amount no longer applies. Therefore, the Notice to Keeper does not comply with PoFA and I must allow the appeal. It is worth also mentioning that the original notice to driver that was attached to the windscreen of the vehicle has been cut off, and important information is missing, for example the full PCN number and the full vehicle registration. The copy of the original PCN provided by the operator in their evidence does not match the dates that are visible on the original notice o driver. The appellant has raised other grounds in their appeal, but as I am allowing the appeal, it is not necessary for me to address these.

Thanks for your help guys. Pouring a large one. I notice that the assessor went for POFA compliance on the NtK as a reason to uphold but the assessor did at least acknowledge the blatant incompetence leading to potential fraud that these intellectual pygmies attempted.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: b789 on November 10, 2024, 06:57:56 am
You can log onto the POPLA website with your POPLA reference number and the password they issued you and see at what stage your appeal is at. Probably still at the “in progress” stage.

If POPLA do respond to your email, please show us, so that we know what their excuse is.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: DWMB2 on November 09, 2024, 11:35:31 pm
In which case, as you were.

Do keep us up to date with any progress that your solicitor achieves.

It would also be useful to know how long POPLA do eventually take - a recent poster got a outcome after around 7 weeks, certainly longer than the ambitious 2-4 they claim!
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on November 09, 2024, 11:22:54 pm
Not a bluff - depending on the outcome.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: DWMB2 on November 09, 2024, 08:24:14 pm
POPLA are running at a fair delay at the moment.

I wouldn't waste money instructing a solicitor.

If you haven't or don't plan to, then I wouldn't claim that you are going to do so. If one of your main complaints is that the operator has been dishonest pursuing you for money, bluffing about solicitors might not do your credibility much good.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on November 09, 2024, 07:07:54 pm
Verification Code xxxxxxxxxxxx

Dear POPLA.
On the 13/9 I received an email from you informing me that I was in a queue and to expect a decision in 2-4 weeks.

It has now been 8 weeks. Can I please have an estimate of when I might receive your decision ? I am anxious to get on with my pursuit of the parking company for criminal fraud but I really would like to have ALL the evidence with me when I speak to my solicitor...

Many thanks...
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: DWMB2 on September 13, 2024, 08:49:38 pm
For the BPA to consider your complaint, you will first need to complain to the operator.

I'm not sure if there's a separate complaints address for KADOE or if you'd just use the general DVLA one.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on September 13, 2024, 08:23:02 pm
I've submitted my response along the lines of B789/DWMB2's suggestions.

Now sitting back and waiting for their adjudication.

Thanks for all your help so far.

In the meantime, I am not letting this lie. This is a blatant attempt to mislead the adjudicator either deliberately or through laziness. I need to complain to the DVLA, the BPA and Sainsburys. Is there a contact email address for DVLA ? - clear breach of KADOE.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: b789 on September 13, 2024, 03:49:02 pm
As far as I remember, you cannot upload documents when responding to the operators evidence. Also there is a 10,000 character limit to any response.

When you submitted the POPLA appeal, did you include photos or images of the NtD and anything else you are relying on? If so, you must explain clearly for the assessor to be able to compare what the operator has provided as evidence and what you provided. Be descriptive.

Are there any of your appeal points that the operator has not rebutted or ignored? You must point out any points you argued that have not been answered satisfactorily by the operator.

The burden of proof is on the operator to evidence their allegations. However, if they have not responded to any of your points, it should be a win for you.

For example, if you argued that the NtD was invalid as it did not contain all the relevant data and certainly was not capable of being fully compliant with PoFA but they have countered that it was and provided a photo of the NtD without the flaws, then you could point the assessor to this as follows:

Quote
POPLA Reference: [Your POPLA Number]
Euro Car Parks (ECP) PCN: [PCN Number]


I am writing to respond to the evidence pack submitted by Euro Car Parks (ECP) regarding my appeal. While I respect the importance of presenting clear and accurate evidence in a POPLA appeal, it is deeply concerning that ECP has submitted a falsified and inaccurate version of the Notice to Driver (NtD). The version presented in their evidence pack does not match the NtD that was affixed to the vehicle, and it is clearly a stock image or facsimile designed to misrepresent what actually occurred. I would like to bring to the POPLA assessor's attention the following points:

Fabricated Notice to Driver (NtD):

The NtD attached to the vehicle was severely truncated due to a machine printing error, cutting off crucial information such as the PCN number and parking details. This made it impossible to initiate an appeal at the time. In contrast, the version provided by ECP in their evidence pack is a complete, unaltered document with all information present, including different word placements and text wrapping compared to the original.

ECP’s version of the NtD bears no resemblance to the original, as shown by the altered formatting and content placement. This should be seen for what it is — a stock image that has been submitted in an attempt to mislead the POPLA process.

The copy of the NtD I provided in my initial appeal clearly shows the printing error and I urge the POPLA assessor to compare the two versions. The discrepancies between them are not minor; they are fundamental. The operator has knowingly submitted a doctored NtD that misrepresents the actual document left on the vehicle.

Impact on My Ability to Appeal as the Keeper:

Due to the printing error on the original NtD, I was unable to provide the PCN number required to appeal through the operator’s website. As a result, I had no recourse until the Notice to Keeper (NtK) was issued. ECP’s own system relies on the PCN number, yet they failed to ensure this number was visible on the NtD left on the vehicle. This further demonstrates their negligence in complying with the process they expect an appellant to follow.

Inaccurate Reliance on PoFA:

It is laughable that ECP attempts to rely on PoFA for holding the keeper liable while simultaneously submitting an invalid and non-compliant NtD. PoFA requires that the NtD includes specific, unambiguous information, none of which was properly conveyed on the version affixed to the vehicle due to the already mentioned printing issues.

ECP's own admission in their evidence pack that they must fully comply with PoFA only reinforces the fact that they have failed to do so. They cannot hold me, as the registered keeper, liable under PoFA because the NtD they issued was defective and did not meet the requirements outlined in Schedule 4.

Misleading Representation of Contractual Breach:

ECP's photos, which purport to show a breach of contract by parking "outside a marked bay," are equally flawed. As I outlined in my initial appeal, the vehicle was parked in what appeared to be a bay, with no markings or signage to indicate otherwise. The operator’s failure to properly mark the bays or provide adequate signage to indicate that the space was not a valid bay further undermines their claim.

Operator’s Conduct:

The submission of an inaccurate and misleading NtD is not only a breach of transparency but also reflects poorly on the operator’s integrity in this case. I submit that POPLA should take this into account when considering the overall fairness and conduct of the operator. The fact that ECP cannot even provide an accurate copy of the original NtD suggests they are attempting to deceive both myself and POPLA in this matter.

Request for Fairness in Adjudication:

I request that POPLA dismiss the operator's reliance on their fabricated NtD and acknowledge that ECP has not acted in good faith by submitting false evidence. Furthermore, ECP has failed to meet the necessary legal requirements under PoFA, both in the NtD and NtK, and should not be allowed to pursue this parking charge any further.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: DWMB2 on September 13, 2024, 02:46:14 pm
Quote
What is the best way of bringing this to the POPLA reviewer's attention ?
Refer to the page in your POPLA appeal where you included photos of the actual notice. Point out that these are the actual notice the driver received, and that what they have included in their evidence pack is not the notice the driver received, but rather what the notice should have looked like if they hadn't messed it up.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on September 13, 2024, 02:41:42 pm
SO ECP have come back with their 'evidence' pack regarding my POPLA appeal. Notwithstanding the mental gymnastics they are having to go to (they even quoted that they must fully comply with the POFA in order to hold the keeper liable, chortle chortle).

However, In my my response I want to call them out for the shysters they are (in the nicest way possible of course).  The key issue is that the original NtD was cut off and unreadable. In their evidence pack they have produed a made-up facsimile of the NtD which bears no resemblance to the original - it shows the whole document, there are words in different places, the word wrap is different on another paragraph. Basically it looks like a machine produced copy of what they THINK they put on the vehicle. I'm thinking of going through the differences line by line and asking that they are admonished for manufacturing 'evidence'

It's blatant.

What is the best way of bringing this to the POPLA reviewer's attention ?
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on August 30, 2024, 03:52:06 pm
Thank as ever guys.

I'll make the necessary additions and send it off.

Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: DWMB2 on August 30, 2024, 01:00:21 pm
I think there's never any harm in throwing in the landowner authority point. Worst case they supply a valid contract that kills that point off, but sometimes it can throw up surprises.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: b789 on August 30, 2024, 12:58:08 pm
That should do it. the keeper cannot be liable if the NtD was not compliant with PoFA, regardless of whether the subsequent NtK was compliant, which it isn’t. The parking operator cannot rely on PoFA to enforce the parking charge against the keeper if they did not fully comply with the requirements for both notices.

Even though they think that the NtK was issued in compliance with paragraph 8 of PoFA, the initial failure of the NtD to comply means that the chain of liability under PoFA is broken.

You may want to throw in poor or inadequate signage and no landowner authority to issue PCNs in their own name at the location. Require them to evidence a valid contract flowing from the landowner.  I usually include the following for those bits:

Quote
Inadequate signage leading to failure to adhere to PoFA 2012 and breach of the BPA Code of Practice

The operator has failed to show that the signs are legible from all parking spaces and, specifically, there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge. Section 19.3 of the BPA CoP states:

“You must place signs containing the specific parking terms throughout the site, so that drivers are given the chance to read them at the time of parking or leaving their vehicle… Signs must be conspicuous and legible, and written in intelligible language, so that they are easy to see, read and understand”.

Section 19.4 of the BPA CoP states "If you intend to use the keeper liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012, your signs must give ’adequate notice’. This includes:

• specifying the sum payable for unauthorised parking
adequately bringing the charges to the attention of drivers, and
following any applicable government signage regulations.”

The signs at this location fail to prominently give adequate notice of the specified sum payable. Considering that this operator often relies on the Supreme Court appeal decision in the Beavis case, the signage at this location fails miserably when compared to the signage in that case which clearly showed the charge prominently. It should be noted that within PoFA it discusses the clarity that needs to be provided to make a motorist aware of the parking charge. Specifically, it requires that the driver is given “adequate notice” of the charge.

POFA defines “adequate notice” as follows:

2(2) The reference in the definition of “parking charge” to a sum in the nature of damages is to a sum of which adequate notice was given to drivers of vehicles (when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land).”

“2(3) For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) ‘adequate notice’ means notice given by:

the display of one or more notices in accordance with any applicable requirements prescribed in regulations under paragraph 12 for, or for purposes including, the purposes of sub-paragraph (2); or

where no such requirements apply, the display of one or more notices which:

specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and
are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land”.

Even in circumstances where PoFA does not apply, I believe this to be a reasonable standard to use when making an independent assessment of the signage in place at the location. The minuscule font used in the signs at this location fail, miserably, to provide adequate notice of any charges.

Considering the signage in place at this particular site against the requirements of Section 19 of the BPA Code of Practice and PoFA, it is beyond any doubt that the signage is not sufficient to give adequate notice of the charge and bring the parking charge to the attention of the motorist.

No evidence of landholder authority

The operator is also put to strict proof, by means of contemporaneous and unredacted evidence, of a chain of authority flowing from the landholder of the "relevant land" to the operator. It is not accepted that the operator has adhered to the landholder's definitions, exemptions, grace period, hours of operation, etc. and any instructions to cancel charges due to complaints.  There is no evidence that the freeholder authorises this operator to issue parking charges or what the land enforcement boundary and start/expiry dates are, nor whether this operator has standing to enforce such charges in their own name rather than a bare licence to act as an agent ‘on behalf of’ the landowner.

The operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice. As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the “relevant land” then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only). Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules.

A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement. Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply.

Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and, of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement). Paragraph 7 of the BPA Code of Practice defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined
any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement

This will be seriously messing with their intellectually malnourished heads. If they don’t withdraw, it will be fun to see their operators response pack to this. Have some satisfaction in the knowledge that this is costing them money and time.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on August 30, 2024, 10:59:04 am
Appeal rejected and I have a POPLA code.

Can I have some feedback please ......

POPLA Code xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Xxxxx  PCN No xxxxxxxxxxxxx

Appeal against Parking Charge

I am the registered keeper of vehicle xxxxx  and I dispute the above-referenced Parking Charge on the following grounds :
1.   Driver Liability not established – the Notice to Driver is not compliant with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA)
2.   Keeper Liability not established - The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with POFA
3.   No breach of contract

Notice to Driver not compliant

The piece of paper left on the vehicle purports to be a parking charge notice except that due to misalignment of the printing machine, all of the relevant information has been truncated at the front. An image of the piece of paper is attached at Appendix A.
Under Paragraph 7 of Schedule 4 of POFA, certain information MUST be present for a Notice to Driver to be valid and this information is missing from this piece of paper, namely but not limited to:
-the vehicle
-the relevant land
-the parking period
-the parking charge
-dates by which a ‘discount’ may be obtained

Nobody can reasonably deduce the missing information and this piece of paper therefore cannot be relied upon as a valid Notice to Driver under paragraph 7(1)(a) of Schedule 4 of POFA.

The operator therefore cannot reply on Paragraph 4(1) of Schedule 4 of POFA to transfer liability to the keeper because the second condition as referenced in paragraph 6(1) of POFA has not been met, namely that NO valid Notice to Driver has been issued in accordance with Paragraph 7.

In addition, the operator’s website does not provide an opportunity to appeal without a ‘PCN Number’ which I was unable to provide in this instance as it is not present and so the operator has failed to comply with section 23 of the BPA Code of Practice.

Notice to Keeper not compliant

Notwithstanding, that there is no keeper liability for the reasons stated above, the Notice to Keeper of itself is not complaint with POFA. Schedule 4, Paragraph 8(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012 MANDATES that for a parking operator to hold the vehicle's registered keeper liable for a parking charge, the Notice to Keeper must include an "Invitation to Pay": The notice must explicitly invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges.

The law mandates full and exact compliance with the specified wording and content outlined in PoFA 2012. The wording must clearly convey this invitation and mere implication or indirect suggestions are insufficient. The act requires strict compliance, meaning that any failure to fully incorporate this invitation renders the notice non-compliant with the requirements of PoFA.

Partial or Substantial Compliance is Insufficient: Even if the notice largely complies with other requirements, the absence of a clear invitation to the keeper to pay is a significant flaw. The operator cannot rely on partial or even substantial compliance — every element as specified in the legislation must be present and correct.


No breach of contract

The operator agrees as a condition of association with the BPA to abide by the BPA Code of Practice.

The photographs supplied by the operator show the vehicle parked at the end of a row pf parking bays in what appears to be a parking bay. There are no yellow lines, no hatch marks, no signs indicating this is not a parking bay. There is not even a white line to the right of the bay.

As such, the operator has not complied with the BPA Code of Practice paragraph 19.11 in that surface markings have not been applied in such a way as to indicate this was not a parking bay.

I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: b789 on August 14, 2024, 02:30:20 pm
There's no point in delaying the appeal to the NtK. It has been issued within the required timeline. However, there is a notable failure in the wording of the NtK that renders it non-compliant with PoFA. Here is a précis of why it is not compliant:

Quote
Schedule 4, Paragraph 8(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012

This paragraph mandates that for a parking operator to hold the vehicle's registered keeper liable for a parking charge, the Notice to Keeper (NtK) must include:

An "Invitation to Pay": The notice must explicitly invite the keeper to pay the unpaid parking charges.

Exact Wording: The wording must clearly convey this invitation and mere implication or indirect suggestions are insufficient. The act requires strict compliance, meaning that any failure to fully incorporate this invitation renders the notice non-compliant with the requirements of PoFA 2012.

Non-Compliance Issue

If the NtK fails to include a clear "invitation to pay", or any synonym of the word "invitation", this omission is a breach of Schedule 4, Paragraph 8(2)(e)(i). Even if the notice suggests that payment is required, without an explicit invitation directed towards the keeper to settle the charge, the notice does not meet the exacting requirements of PoFA 2012.

Significance of Full Compliance

Strict Liability: The law mandates full and exact compliance with the specified wording and content outlined in PoFA 2012.

Partial or Substantial Compliance Insufficient: Even if the notice largely complies with other requirements, the absence of a clear invitation to the keeper to pay is a significant flaw. The operator cannot rely on partial or even substantial compliance — every element as specified in the legislation must be present and correct.

Consequences for the Operator

Challenge Basis: If the notice is found to lack this crucial element, it can be used as a basis to challenge the parking charge.

Keeper Liability: The operator cannot transfer liability to the keeper, which significantly weaken their case if the notice to the driver or other requirements are also flawed or if the driver is unknown.

Conclusion

In summary, a PCN that does not include an explicit "invitation" for the keeper to pay the charge is not fully compliant with Schedule 4, Paragraph 8(2)(e)(i) of PoFA 2012. Since the law demands strict adherence, any omission, even if minor, invalidates the notice and relieves the keeper of any obligation to pay. This should be raised in any appeal or legal response to the charge.

ECP will reject any appeal but they then have to provide a POPLA code. So, the initial appeal to ECP only needs to be short and to the point:

Quote
I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner.

As your Notice to Keeper (NtK) does not fully comply with ALL the requirements of PoFA 2012, namely no "invitation", or any synonym of the word, for the keeper to pay the charge as per paragraph 8(2)(e)(i), you are unable to hold the keeper of the vehicle liable for the charge. Partial or even substantial compliance is not sufficient. There will be no admission as to who was driving and no inference or assumptions can be drawn.

Since your PCN is a vague template, I require an explanation of the allegations and your evidence. You must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date as well as your images of the vehicle.

I suggest you cancel the PCN or issue me with a POPLA code.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on August 14, 2024, 01:48:05 pm
SO no real appeal or complaint response, just the boilerplate I described above, and no POPLA code either.

Instead I have just received an NtK which I assume I appeal on Day 26 as keeper.....

(https://i.postimg.cc/YGdmjxsX/NTK-Back.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YGdmjxsX)

(https://i.postimg.cc/47f9J0B7/NTK-Front.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/47f9J0B7)
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on July 30, 2024, 01:13:51 pm
The stupidity of these people...... came straight back with the same response.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: b789 on July 29, 2024, 03:15:15 pm
I wouldn’t worry about it. They cannot hold the keeper liable as their NtD did not comply with PoFA. Their NtD also failed to comply with the BPA CoP.

Wait until they send an appeal rejection with a POPLA code and show POPLA how they have failed to do play with both PoFA and the CoP.

In fact, simply respond to that email with:

Quote
As the keeper of vehicle [VRM] in response to your “ING CHARGE NOTICE”, I decline to identify the driver. As your “ING CHARGE NOTICE” does not comply with the requirements of PoFA, you are unable to hold me liable as the keeper.

Either cancel the PCN or issue a POPLA code where an assessor can review your PoFA and your BPA Code of Practice failings.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on July 29, 2024, 01:08:26 pm
So I submitted the appeal as keeper as described above on Day 26. They came back almost immediately with the following :

VRM – xxxxxx
PCN – xxxxxxxxxxx

Please be advised that it is the registered keeper’s responsibility to inform of the full name and UK serviceable address of who was driving the vehicle within 28 days beginning with the day after the notice was given. If the full amount remains unpaid, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘the Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid.

If you wish to appeal, please complete the online appeals form at https://appeals.eurocarparks.com/Appeals/Default.aspx and ensure you upload any supporting documents.
--------------------------------------------------------

Putting aside the complete **** which is the first sentence (and the fact that I appealed/complained as keeper), I guess I now just sit here for another 28 days and see if an NtK arrives ?
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on July 08, 2024, 01:30:38 pm
Thanks for your help !

Was toying with ****ing charge notice !

Day 26 in the diary..... Will let you know how I get on.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: b789 on July 06, 2024, 05:28:44 pm
You don't have to send by post. You can use their "contact us" portal here: https://www.eurocarparks.com/enquiry/ and you can upload your complaint as a PDF file. Just add the message that they should treat the message as both a complaint and an appeal.

Do not file the appeal/complaint until day 26 after it was received. Just covering all the options in case they are too stupid to cancel it immediately and they fail to send an NtK by day 56.

You could as whether it is a "Park" or a "Feck" ing charge notice.  ;)
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on July 06, 2024, 02:12:55 pm
Getting my appeal ready ahead of the deadline. Please feedback.

One point to note is that the ECP website makes it impossible to appeal online without a PCN Number which of course I don't have, so I am going to be forced to send this by mail, 1st class, proof of posting.

Re PCN number: UNKNOWN

I am the keeper of vehicle <REGISTRATION NUMBER> and my address is <ADDRESS>

On the 2nd July a ‘ING CHARGE NOTICE’ was placed on the vehicle in Sainsbury’s Merton and has since been handed to me.
I am appealing as the KEEPER of the vehicle.

The piece of paper handed to me purports to be a parking charge notice except that due to misalignment of the printing machine, all of the relevant information has been curtailed.

Under Paragraph 7 of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, certain information MUST be present for a Notice to Driver to be valid and this information is missing from this ‘ING CHARGE NOTICE’ namely but not limited to:

-the vehicle;
-the relevant land;
the parking period;
-the parking charge;
-dates by which a ‘discount’ may be obtained;

Your ‘ING CHARGE NOTICE’ therefore cannot be relied upon as a valid Notice to Driver under paragraph 7(1)(a) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act.

As such, you have also failed in this instance to abide by the BPA Code of Practice paragraphs 21.6 and 21.7. In addition, your website does not provide an opportunity to appeal without a ‘PCN Number’ which I am unable to provide in this instance and so you have failed to comply with section 23 of the same BPA Code. A complaint to the BPA will be made forthwith.

I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn.

I expect to receive confirmation that this ‘ING PARKING CHARGE’ has been withdrawn.
Title: Re: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: b789 on July 03, 2024, 09:39:27 pm
For a EURO CAR PARKS (ECP) Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued on private land to be valid, it needs to comply with specific requirements set out by the British Parking Association (BPA) in their Code of Practice (CoP). If a Notice to Driver (NtD) has crucial details misprinted or missing, such as dates or other essential information, this affects the validity of the PCN.

Key points to consider include:

1. Accuracy of Information: The NtD must include specific information, such as the date and time of the alleged contravention, the reason for the charge, and the amount due. If these details are cut off or misprinted, it renders the PCN invalid because it does not provide the necessary information for the unknown driver to understand and respond to the charge.

2. Code of Practice Compliance: ECP must adhere to the CoP set by the BPA. This code requires that NtDs contain clear and correct information. Non-compliance with the code is grounds for the PCN to be cancelled.

3. Right to Appeal: As the recipient of a misprinted or incomplete NtD you should appeal the PCN as the known keeper. Do not identify the unknown driver. In the appeal, you should cite the inaccuracies or missing information as part of your grounds for challenging the validity of the PCN.

4. Keeper Liability: Under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), for an unregulated private parking company (PPC) such as ECP to hold the vehicle keeper liable, they must follow strict guidelines, including correctly issuing the NtD and any subsequent Notice to Keeper (NtK). Any errors in the NtD impact the PPCs ability to enforce the charge against the known keeper.

As you have received a PCN with misprinted or missing information, you should note the following:

Strategic timing is crucial when dealing with PCNs issued as NtDs on private land in England. Here’s a detailed explanation of the approach which involves delaying the appeal:

1. Understand PoFA: The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) sets out the rules for holding the (known) registered keeper of a vehicle liable for parking charges incurred by the unknown driver. For the ECP to rely on PoFA, they must follow specific procedures and timeframes.

2. NtD and NtK Timeframes: When a Notice to Driver (NtD) is issued, ECP must wait at least 28 days before sending an NtK. However, the NtK must be sent within 56 days of the alleged contravention.

3. Strategic Delay in Appealing: By waiting to appeal the NtD (only as the keeper) until close to the 28-day mark (around day 26), you can potentially exploit a timing gap:

  - Delayed Process: ECP might not process and respond to your appeal before the 28-day window closes.

  - NtK Issuance Delay: If ECP does not issue the NtK within the required timeframe (56 days) or not at all, they lose the right to hold the known keeper instead of the unknown driver liable under PoFA.

4. Challenging the NtD: As the NtD has misprinted or missing crucial information, this will form the basis of your appeal. Ensure you document these issues clearly in your appeal.

5. Potential Outcomes:

  - Appeal Accepted: If the appeal is accepted, the PCN is cancelled.

  - Appeal Rejected: If the appeal is rejected and ECP has not yet sent the NtK, they may miss the PoFA deadlines, preventing them from holding the known keeper liable.

6. Follow-Up: If ECP fails to send the NtK within 56 days, they cannot use PoFA to enforce the charge against the known keeper. You can then respond to any further correspondence by highlighting their non-compliance with PoFA.

Steps to Take:

1. Photograph and Document: Take clear photographs of the NtD showing the misprinted or missing information. DONE
2. Prepare Appeal: Draft your appeal, focusing on the errors in the NtD and your understanding of the timing strategy. **Show us before you send anything.
3. Submit Appeal: Submit the appeal around day 26 after the NtD was issued.
4. Monitor for NtK: Keep an eye out for any NtK being issued. If the PPC misses the 56-day deadline, they cannot hold the known keeper liable.

Considerations:

- Parking Company Practices: Some parking companies may be more diligent in adhering to PoFA timelines, so this strategy may not always succeed.

By following this strategic approach, you increase the likelihood of avoiding keeper liability under PoFA, especially when the NtD itself is flawed.

For clarification, only the unknown driver is liable for any debt for an alleged breach of contract with the PPC. The PPC does not know the identity of the unknown driver unless the known keeper divulges it, unintentionally or otherwise. There is no legal obligation for the known keeper to identify the unknown driver.
Title: Winscreen ticket - Sainsburys Merton, with a twist
Post by: Sarf London on July 03, 2024, 06:09:22 pm
Hi all. Some advice would be appreciated.


The driver returned to their vehicle to find a PCN attached to the windscreen. There's a twist. The PCN is missing the first 1" of printing all the way down due to a misaligned printing machine. The Make, Time observed, Reg No, PCN No, and date by which the discounted rate can be claimed are all missing or cut off. So has the driver really recived a PCN (as per POFA) or just some random piece of paper ?

Should this be appealed as the keeper on Day 25 or do you suggest a different course of action ?

And what should the appeal be ? The White Tesla is parked exactly where the driver was parked on the previous day when the ticket was issued.

Many thanks

(https://i.postimg.cc/WFdS4mvY/ECP.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFdS4mvY)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MMg5fcZ6/Tesla-in-space.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MMg5fcZ6)