Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: cesur on July 02, 2024, 07:44:25 am
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1apskOoKAENOTinHjRG_iVr8kzXeXEJEB/view).
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My absolute pleasure as ever. I am turning into a Welsh bard.
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Thanks @Hippocrates on this!
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;D No grounds on website. 2240438256.
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Appeal filed. Tribunal website had issues this afternoon.
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@cesur Just about to start doing the appeal filing.
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Hi. I assume you wish to appeal this? Pleas e mail me the unredacted NOR so I can file the appeal if so. Tel. number too please. I should have it but......!
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@Hippocrates,
Added representations rejection letter to https://photos.app.goo.gl/pBcEDp3zpEpMxjUm7
(Last two images in the album)
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Please ignore my PM just now as I realise you have sent the reps. They should have a copy of your original challenge.
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OP, have we seen your initial challenge?
The meaning of the tortuous layers of group, sub-committee and council reports is virtually impenetrable.
IMO, it is not tenable to argue that the intention of the council was to permit parking on the footway based upon the specific wording of 'footways on both sides of the road for the total length.'
It's not tenable because it wouldn't be lawful IMO because, as only 2-wheel parking on the pavement is permitted, then this would be tantamount to encouraging motorists to:
1. Block your crossover, which would be obstruction as I understand it, and
2. Commit a contravention because the other wheels must necessarily be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a dropped footway!
Indeed, in the narrative of the report with Appendix D it's clear that marked bays are anticipated- the location of which is already delegated to the Chief Engineer- and if you look at the criteria you'll find reference to leaving 1.0m between markings and any crossover.
The placing of marked areas naturally follows from there being so many vehicle crossovers and it's clear that the marked areas are of standard size marked in order to provide the maximum number of spaces between crossovers in a controlled manner.
However, what you did was not contrary to the spirit of the council's decision because you are the occupier of the house which benefits from the crossover. Did you make this point in your initial reps?
If the council still play hard-ball, reject your formal reps and insist that the signs are the signs etc. then if you wanted to take matters further you could return the complement by reference to the precise wording of the Appendix, the recommendation and the council's decision and trust that the adjudicator can make better use of their time than by ferreting through the detail of these reports and would simply take the decision at face value.
There are the other procedural points in play as well.
Wait for others.
My initial challenge could have gone with Pepipoo, I can't find a copy of mine now. But I did make the point that the driveway is in front of my property.
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This will be won on their website grounds at the Tribunal and I would be happy to represent you:
@cesur I would strongly recommend you take Hippocrates up on his offer and get him to represent you.
Thanks. He has. We fondly remember the Greenwich fiasco! 2220946662.
I've submitted my appeal as per @Hippocrates's advice.
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This will be won on their website grounds at the Tribunal and I would be happy to represent you:
@cesur I would strongly recommend you take Hippocrates up on his offer and get him to represent you.
Thanks. He has. We fondly remember the Greenwich fiasco! 2220946662.
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OP, have we seen your initial challenge?
The meaning of the tortuous layers of group, sub-committee and council reports is virtually impenetrable.
IMO, it is not tenable to argue that the intention of the council was to permit parking on the footway based upon the specific wording of 'footways on both sides of the road for the total length.'
It's not tenable because it wouldn't be lawful IMO because, as only 2-wheel parking on the pavement is permitted, then this would be tantamount to encouraging motorists to:
1. Block your crossover, which would be obstruction as I understand it, and
2. Commit a contravention because the other wheels must necessarily be parked on the carriageway adjacent to a dropped footway!
Indeed, in the narrative of the report with Appendix D it's clear that marked bays are anticipated- the location of which is already delegated to the Chief Engineer- and if you look at the criteria you'll find reference to leaving 1.0m between markings and any crossover.
The placing of marked areas naturally follows from there being so many vehicle crossovers and it's clear that the marked areas are of standard size marked in order to provide the maximum number of spaces between crossovers in a controlled manner.
However, what you did was not contrary to the spirit of the council's decision because you are the occupier of the house which benefits from the crossover. Did you make this point in your initial reps?
If the council still play hard-ball, reject your formal reps and insist that the signs are the signs etc. then if you wanted to take matters further you could return the complement by reference to the precise wording of the Appendix, the recommendation and the council's decision and trust that the adjudicator can make better use of their time than by ferreting through the detail of these reports and would simply take the decision at face value.
There are the other procedural points in play as well.
Wait for others.
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This will be won on their website grounds at the Tribunal and I would be happy to represent you:
@cesur I would strongly recommend you take Hippocrates up on his offer and get him to represent you.
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What is the recommended route for this PCN?
@cp8759, @Incandescent, @Hippocrates
Deadline is Wednesday so I would reply today. Contravention did not occur and I rely upon my original representations. The website issues can be raised at the Tribunal.
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https://bit.ly/2ALghSS
Adjudications - key cases
623 ff.
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This will be won on their website grounds at the Tribunal and I would be happy to represent you:
Parking
Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway
We will consider your appeal according to our appeals policy. If your reason for appeal is not listed in the policy, we are unlikely to accept it. However we will still consider your case individually.
Search for a reason
Pay and Display (P&D) or Cashless
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving P&D tickets or cashless parking sessions.
Select a reason:
I had a Pay and Display (P&D) ticket
I made a mistake when purchasing my Pay and Display (P&D) ticket
I paid by phone or app
I was in a rush and forgot to pay
The Pay and Display machine was not working and I couldn't purchase a Pay and Display (P&D) ticket
Permits
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving parking permits.
Select a reason:
I had a permit
Blue Badge
The following circumstances are relating to scenarios involving Blue Badges
Select a reason:
I had a Blue Badge on display
Emergency / beyond driver's control
Reasons that relate to something unexpected happening to the motorist that must be seen to immediately
Select a reason:
I became unwell while driving
I parked at the location because my child needed the toilet
I stopped because of an emergency situation
My passenger became unwell while I was driving
My vehicle had broken down
My vehicle was cloned
My vehicle was stolen
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) wrongly / unfairly issued
Reasons where it may appear that the PCN was issued unfairly or incorrectly.
Select a reason:
I have already paid the PCN
I only stopped for a few minutes
I was not the owner of the vehicle
I was only a few minutes late back to my vehicle
I was unaware of the rules
The vehicle was on hire to someone else
There was nowhere else to park
Other
Other reasons we have received that do not fall into one of the above categories.
Select a reason:
I did not cause an obstruction
I didn't see any signs or lines
I was loading / unloading at the time
I was loading / unloading at the time
I was picking up / dropping off a passenger
My vehicle is a taxi
This was the safest place to stop
None of the above
If none of the above reasons apply, and you wish to challenge your PCN, please select below:
Select a reason:
Any other reason
Cancel
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PM sent
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What is the recommended route for this PCN?
@cp8759, @Incandescent, @Hippocrates
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Satellite image of where the car was parked: https://photos.app.goo.gl/W9XDVRYpctuaa7ab9
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IAs-NoI8XeRuJnntEpICK3sb6ZlyDbJp/view
Page 190 for Key
Page 308 for Olron Crescent (the parked place is in front of the house where circled S is near the road curve at the bottom right)
Right to the post there is a marked bay half on the pavement but I don't see a marking on the map.
What do we make out of this map? could you explain, please?
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GSV of the exact parked place: https://maps.app.goo.gl/XApK9dSL4J23RbrR7
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So here are:
1) Traffic and transportation sub-committee report of 15th September 1994 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pL6p8vmMQZsw7kvwMrKDtN-t-wDX9Bar/view)
2) Public Works Committee Agenda of 13 October 1994 (see page 308 for a map of Olron Crescent) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IAs-NoI8XeRuJnntEpICK3sb6ZlyDbJp/view)
3) Public Works Committee minutes of 13 October 1994 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Kc6KEwkLyna0NRmQJK0k3T265mldzc1I/view)
4) Full council resolution of 11 November 1994 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yWAv0idbw3vViG-5TrQjhp2zDqxeYQdf/view)
@cesur please give us a Google street view link to the exact spot where the car was parked, so that we can compare it to the council map.
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(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
Not properly expressed in the NtO.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348231564/regulation/5
Website:
Parking
Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any part of a road other than a carriageway
We will consider your appeal according to our appeals policy. If your reason for appeal is not listed in the policy, we are unlikely to accept it. However we will still consider your case individually.
Search for a reason
About as helpful and valid as a nail in my thumb!
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Hello,
NTO has arrived. I have added it in the same album: https://photos.app.goo.gl/pBcEDp3zpEpMxjUm7
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What are the dates when you'll be away? Are you able to ask a friend or neighbour to check your post for you?
Yes, I can ask a friend to check my post.
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What are the dates when you'll be away? Are you able to ask a friend or neighbour to check your post for you?
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As per the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), please re-post the PCN without redactions, also please give us a link to the location on google street view.
Lastly please check if this site is still there: https://maps.app.goo.gl/chu5rPKhxWt3SkDs6
In the meantime I'll get hold of the footway parking resolution.
I have included the unredacted version of PCN in the shared album linked in my first post. https://photos.app.goo.gl/pBcEDp3zpEpMxjUm7
I can confirm the sign in your GSV image is still there.
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As per the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/), please re-post the PCN without redactions, also please give us a link to the location on google street view.
Lastly please check if this site is still there: https://maps.app.goo.gl/chu5rPKhxWt3SkDs6
In the meantime I'll get hold of the footway parking resolution.
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There is a notice at the street entrance about parking in marked bays which I wasn't aware.
Dated GSV shows that there are more marked bays in this and adjoining roads than one can shake a stick at, including one behind your car. There isn't a photo of the sign in evidence and GSV doesn't help. You need to do some legwork.
Are you the registered keeper with current V5C.
Yes, I am the registered keeper with the current V5C at this address.
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There is a notice at the street entrance about parking in marked bays which I wasn't aware.
Dated GSV shows that there are more marked bays in this and adjoining roads than one can shake a stick at, including one behind your car. There isn't a photo of the sign in evidence and GSV doesn't help. You need to do some legwork.
Are you the registered keeper with current V5C.
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What we found regularly on the old site is that the exemption for the kerb parking usually applied to the whole street, rather than just the bays, one of the regulars will be along shortly to confirm exactly what you need to ask for.
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I would consider making representations regarding permitted exceptions for loading and unloading and the need to maintain an observation period.
The PCN also does not seem to record the extra information required. This is in the CEO handbook for a purpose (in my opinion to identify whether there is any other safe location to unload).
There are also permitted exemptions, 'DNOP,' for code 63 contravention. Perhaps you were waiting for the driveway to be made clear before you entered it.
EXEMPTION O. A vehicle waiting while a gate or barrier is opened closed
to allow access or departure to from premises
Check out: https://archive.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/parking-services/parking-and-traffic/parking-information-professionals/civil-enforcement
Code description:
Parked with one or more wheels on or over a footpath or any
part of the road other than a carriageway.
Code contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits on any part of
a footpath or footway.
Extra information to be recorded:
• Number of wheels on the footway
• Diagram or photograph of the parking position.
Loading/unloading allowed:
Yes, but only if it is essential so as not to cause an
obstruction and cannot be carried out elsewhere.
Observation period:
If essential as described above, then yes.
Exemptions:
DNOP
Notes:
A footway means a way comprised in a road which also
comprises a carriageway, being a way over which the public
have a right of way on foot only.
A footpath means a highway over which the public have the
right of way on foot only, not being a footway.
Footway parking is allowed where signs and markings offcially
authorise them.
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I am re-opening this topic that I had started in pepipoo forum.
I had parked in front of my house and partly on footpath. There is a notice at the street entrance about parking in marked bays which I wasn't aware.
Now my appeal has been rejected.
I have added the rejection letter in the evidence images: https://photos.app.goo.gl/pBcEDp3zpEpMxjUm7
To note, I will be abroad for 5 weeks soon. I need to ensure I don't miss any correspondence to my address.
Is there any further advice on this one?
Thanks