Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: cyril on July 01, 2024, 10:58:25 pm
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Sent the carers hospital letter and confirming 2 nurses came and they looked at the evidence and cancelled the PCN.
Mr xxxx xxxx , the authority has not contested your appeal, and you are not liable to pay the penalty charge.
There is nothing to pay and the authority will cancel the penalty charge
This is because the authority did not contest your appeal.
The authority have reviewed the evidence provided and do not wish to contest the appeal.
The authority will cancel the penalty charge notice. There is no further action required by you.
Costs
The regulations say that costs are not usually awarded.
There are exceptions; the main one is if the adjudicator considers that the authority (or you) were wholly unreasonable in their approach to the case.
If you consider that this applies in your case follow this link https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/costs
to learn more and find an online form.
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Don't send anything yet.
Can I confirm that the NTO was dated 1 August, reps were dated 7 August and their NOR also dated 7th.
Also, how were the reps sent?
If correct then the forum advice to the effect that reps submitted within 14 days would secure the discount needs to be examined.
NTO 1 August dated on the letter of NTO.
7th August date on the Notice Of Rejection.
Reps which is this.
He has already sent email to trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk and the LCC wants evidence , letter headed paper, signed and dated by the manager before they can consider.
From:Lancashire
To:Appellant & Tribunal12/08/2024
09:37
I have reviewed your reasons for appeal and request evidence to support your claim in order for us to consider this further, please provide a copy of a letter from the care company confirming that on the date in question Mich and Carol attended the property due to an emergency call out. Please note that this letter must be on letter headed paper and must be signed and dated by the manager of the care company. Please provide the evidence by 19/8/24 as beyond this date if it is not provided we will proceed with the appeal.
From:Mr (Appellant)
To:Lancashire, Appellant & Tribunal13/08/2024
17:45
Dear All,
I have requested the evidence from the Urgent Community Response Therapy Team care, which is the NHS.
Do you also require evidence from 1st Homecare carers agency we used, as i did ask them, but they said you need to ask the Urgent Community Response Therapy Team., as Mich and Carol work for them.
I have 4 attachment which was during the process and the 2 nurses visited on Saturday 29th June 2024 and 2nd or 3rd July again.
Dear All,
I have sent email to the following authority and the below email i have received and i have backed it by phoning them as i need the information by 19th August 2024.
I am just updating you guys with the below email, as i have requested the information you required.
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DPA (LSCFT) <DPA@lscft.nhs.uk>
Date: Tue, Aug 13, 2024 at 8:34 PM
Subject: Automatic reply: Required a letter to confirm a visit made by Urgent Community Response team care on Saturday 29th June 2024
To: MR
Dear Sender
Thank you for your email.
If you have sent a Subject Access Request your request will be acknowledged within 5 working days.
We are currently experiencing some delays in processing Subject Access Requests and may not be able to respond within the 30 calendar days.
If your request is going to be subject to a delay then we will notify you by email to advise
Kind regards
SAR Team
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: DPA (LSCFT) <DPA@lscft.nhs.uk>
Date: Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 4:14 PM
Subject: FW: Required a letter to confirm a visit made by Urgent Community Response team care on Saturday 29th June 2024
To: CWB Records (LSCFT) <CWB.Records@lscft.nhs.uk>
Cc: MR
2 hour Urgent Community Response service
Hi
Please see email below, as this is not an SAR but for letter to be provided. Please could you pass on to the relevant team and ask them to process on behalf of the Trust.
The team will need to send the required records / information directly to hotmail.com
Kind regards
Kathryn
Kathryn Singleton
SAR Team Leader
Digital Department
Lancashire & South Cumbria NHS Foundation Trust
T: 01772 773485
E: DPA@lscft.nhs.uk
W: www.lscft.nhs.uk
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Don't send anything yet.
Can I confirm that the NTO was dated 1 August, reps were dated 7 August and their NOR also dated 7th.
Also, how were the reps sent?
If correct then the forum advice to the effect that reps submitted within 14 days would secure the discount needs to be examined.
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Pl repost the NOR showing all of section 3.
https://imgur.com/a/iKcasi4
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https://imgur.com/a/iKcasi4
I will apply for tribunal , but I don’t think they will do much , they may go off the parking services respond.
This is the letter he is drafting to send to Traffic Penalty Tribunal for the appeal, as like you said he has no other option than taking it further.
https://we.tl/t-hr0iGscOhl
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/5ffd9b79f90684ba5b09317f488d74e220240810140607/4951ca8b0d4178d56f81a2adb7a3b50720240810140607/bec30f
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Just to say that if they have not re-offered the discount, it is no a complete no-brainer to take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, because the penalty remains the same, and there are no additional costs. Only if you lose at the TPT should you pay-up.
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Pl repost the NOR showing all of section 3.
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Hi Guys,
Parking services rejected the Notice to Owner challenge/ Appeal and also they did not give the discount, as they need to pay now £50.00 or appeal to Traffic Tribunal services.
Shall he pay £50.00 or go to Traffic Tribunal services and there may be additional cost mentioned the letter. I don't know if the traffic tribunal services will have the same answer the Parking services.
https://imgur.com/ZPfsyEV
https://imgur.com/ZRts7uG
https://imgur.com/zDqcmRd
https://imgur.com/xSiiA7j
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Hi Guys,
I have received the NTO and will reply as the post 20.
https://imgur.com/p92palb
https://imgur.com/H1YKt7v
https://imgur.com/jisDUEA
https://imgur.com/yXrelMz
https://imgur.com/rqbOvU2
https://imgur.com/wWZnbpw
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Thank you for the link.
So they have emailed you the Link for this Limited Bay ?
Do I need to read or use some wording to draft the letter which had been wrote
They have not sent it yet, as they have not received the NTO and they wanted to see if the drafted letter was ok to send or May be amended by you guys if it was not appropriate. It may get sent around end of July 28 days or do I need to inform the parking services?
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Have you sent that? It looks like a reasonable representation to me.
In the meantime here are:
Lancashire County Council (Deepdale Road, Preston, Preston City) (Part Revocation, Prohibition of Waiting, Loading Unloading Bays and Disabled Parking Place) Order 2011 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/19qn4BYhn01uvHhdOeq96HrobCThF54-V/view)
Lancashire County Council (Deepdale Road, Preston, Preston City) (Part Revocation, Limited Waiting) Order 2013 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZDRe8Ie8-L-qPbkqih1S531A0G9YNMmT/view)
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This what they proposing to write when they receive the NTO from the Council.
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice.
On 29th June 2024 my vehicle was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason of Contravention code 30 and parked for longer than permitted.
First of I like to apologized the inconvenience caused. However, I would like to explain why I had parked where I did and I would like to submit an appeal for the following reasons:
Please see attached evidence of the disabled badge, as i forgot to displayed the Disable badge on my car dashboard, as I had to come on emergency as my mother in law had a fall, she lives on her own and had a phone call from telecare, so I had to make an urgent visit, as the family member who usually look after was away to London and there was no one in the house.
We had the 2 nurses come Michelle and Carolyn from Urgent Community Rapid response team, which I was panicking and rushed to come to Preston and the Nurses were already here and the carer, which took all of us 4 hours to get her up, make her safe, as she is very vulnerable.
She has Dementia/Alzheimer’s, One eye loss of eyesight’s, Breast Cancer, Chronic Kidney Disease, High Blood Pressure, High Cholesterol, Incontinence issues, Knees Bone to Bone, Arthritis, Mental Health issue, Depression, Very Confused and Vulnerable. She needs to be monitored 24hrs due to her Vulnerability and lives on her own.
Myself and my wife we live in Blackburn.
My mother who is severely disabled, lives in Preston on her own, who as carers visit 5 times a day and the other son and daughter in law who lives nearby went to London for the weekend.
Carers first called other family member, but as they were away, they gave our phone number.
So on the Morning I received a phone call/message from the carer to the effect that your Mum had a fall and would not get up and had to call in the Emergency rapid response team by the Carers.
We immediately drove to Preston and parked in Hurry which is where my mother lives.
My wife holds a Blue Badge, however in our rush we forgot to display this, as we just parked and rushed out in Emergency to go into the house.
The situation in my mother house was emergency and we stayed there for 4 Hours until we got her safe and comfortable and she had to be carried to the shower room to be cleaned up. Luckily she did not have injury, just bruises.
Then we had to feed her and gave her medications.
Due to Dementia she would not listen or cooperate and this is why the Son and Daughter in law had to come to help and their time took up, lifting the old person from floor to bed and it can take up so much time with old people with so many illnesses.
Then it was a mission getting her up trying to take her to the shower room, as she was scared of standing up or sitting down due to fear of falling and this is how dementia reacts.
My wife Not well herself, as she has Depression and she can be like a dormant person depending on mood swings and takes medication and I had to bring her, as I am the carer for my wife and she needs to be looked after, as she was previously admitted to mental health Hospital and was a patient there for a long time.
I Would like to add my disability, as the My Husband is my Carer, as I have Severe Depression, which I take medication and I am always drowsy due to Medication. I have Heart condition and Migraine which I take medication, I Have Severe Arthritis and I need help from my partner and he is my full-time carer. I had to accompany with my partner, as he had to go to Preston due to her mum fall and would not cooperate with the carers and nurses and the main family member was away to London, so they gave my number to the carers for emergency.
The Medication I have to take are following Quetiapine 200mg, Propranolol 10mg Tablets and Fluoxetine Capsules 20mg,
I am requesting under compassionate reasons for cancelling the PCN that the fine be waived for this reason.
Yours faithfully,
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Thanks. The time gap means that assisted alighting doesn't apply because the PCN was issued 2 hours after the car was parked.
Noted and thanks so Assisted Alighting wont work in this instance, as it was 2 hours gap
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I think he wanted to reply earlier to avoid losing the discounted rate.
Tell your friend to stop worrying about the discounted rate. As long as the NTO is challenged within 14 days, the discount will almost certainly be reoffered anyway.
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Thanks. The time gap means that assisted alighting doesn't apply because the PCN was issued 2 hours after the car was parked.
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It was parked at 08:45am on the Day and moved at 12:30pm.
He was saying from the last post, as his brother lives there and he always says there is a parking problem here , it has 6 parking spaces, there is medical centre (very busy with Patients and Deliveries) , Dominoes (Dominoes drivers, staff and Customer), Barber Shop Customers, Mini market shop, all above the shop is rented out as flat (all have cars per room), so they all have cars and then opposite residents has double yellow lines and there is 15 Houses , so they all want to park here and the limited bay is now parked more than ever and lot of people use the BB, so they don't need to move the car and which is not helpful on the limited bay side where cars are parked and not being moved and effecting the vulnerable people who lives on this side to get in the car safely. This Limited bay is majority always occupied by BB and you never see the BB person, as the family member use it long stay parking.
He said it was reported to the councillor to sort out, but the council are not willing to do anything about it. They have very wide footpath on the opposite side, but wont do anything to make parking bay, or footpath parking by marking bays, as they are not interested at all, so then they don't need to park on our side , which would help a great deal.
I will try a get a letter drafted and post it here for your opinion which you mentioned about the assisted alighting.
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As posted earlier by cp:
If your friend waits for the notice to owner and then make a representation within 14 days of the date of issue, then the discount is almost invariably reoffered, so there is limited risk in carrying on; and formal representations are often given more thorough consideration by a more senior officer.
When did you park?
I ask because of your last post:
they don't see the reality how struggle it is here on this section of the road for Parking for picking and dropping off Vulnerable Passenger. This limited Bay you are very lucky to find parking space, as usually it is always occupied and majority of the space is always occupied by the opposite residents with BB.
Let's no lose sight of 'assisted alighting' in the first instance - simply helping the BB passenger from the car to the property is permitted and their detailed knowledge of the area based upon previous experience as in 'we had visited my MIL on numerous previous occasions and targeted this parking place because it's near her property, although it's still pot-luck whether one is likely to find a space...'
This is NOT about writing legalese, in fact IMO least is best, it's about a compelling argument which IMO flows from a guided personal account.
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Thank you for your reply.
I think he wanted to reply earlier to avoid losing the discounted rate.
He said he has already explained to the parking services which they rejected and he is being reluctant they might reject it again when he gets NTO.
I will ask him again, to wait for the NTO ,as this time it will go to more senior people may get cancelled.
But he has the same explanation, unless parking services comes and visit the elderly person then they will understand, otherwise sat in the office chair, they don't see the reality how struggle it is here on this section of the road for Parking for picking and dropping off Vulnerable Passenger. This limited Bay you are very lucky to find parking space, as usually it is always occupied and majority of the space is always occupied by the opposite residents with BB.
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OP, thank you.
As per others, I suggest waiting for the NTO and in the meantime assemble whatever evidence there is in support of the account.
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Well, he can, but it is almost certain they will just tell him to wait for the Notice to Owner. I'm afraid that going outside the statutory process can end in disaster.
I assume he wants to take the matter further and not pay the offered discount.
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Do i need to wait till 28 days from the PCN date , which was 29/06/2024, so 27/07/2024 will be 28th Day and the discount will end on the 14/07/2024.
So the notice to owner will only submitted after 28 days from the Parking services.
My friend was asking can he send a reply earlier to parking services by email instead of waiting for the Notice to owner.
(https://i.imgur.com/po1pIuF.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/c8WGPl2.jpeg)
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OP, and while the NTO is working its way through the system, pl get your friend to re-order the issues to present a timeline pl.
I live with my wife in ****;
Her mother, who is severely disabled, lives in *** with **** as a carer;
On *** my wife received a phone call/message from *** to the effect that ****;
We immediately drove to *** and parked in *** which is where my MIL lives;
My wife holds a BB, however in our rush we forgot to display this;
The situation in my MIL's house was **** and we stayed for *** until ***.
I won't offer a view on whether and for how long a BB would exempt the driver in this bay, others will comment. However, what's clear is that if on display it exempted the holder from the parking restriction without limit then this is strong mitigation. But if even on display it wouldn't exempt the holder from the time limit then its display is neither here nor there because the car was in situ for more than 1 hour. I think it's necessary to decide what emphasis to place on the BB compared to mitigating factors regarding the purpose of the visit and the situation you found. IMO it works to your advantage that the BB was not yours because if your wife's disability meant that if she was left with your MIL she would be of little assistance then you could hardly have left them in order to move your car out of prospective contravention.
I think we need a full set of facts beginning before you parked in order to work out where your main line(s) of defence might lie and how to present these to maximum effect.
I live with my wife in Blackburn
His mother, who is severely disabled, lives in Preston on her own, who as carers visit 5 times a day and the other son and daughter in law who lives nearby went to London for the weekend.
On the Morning myself received a phone call/message from the carer to the effect that your Mum had a fall and would not get up and had to call in the Emergency rapid response team.
We immediately drove to Preston and parked in Hurry which is where my mother lives;
My wife holds a BB, however in our rush we forgot to display this, as we just parked and rushed out in Emergency to go into the house.
The situation in my mother house was emergency and we stayed there for 4 Hours until we got her safe and comfortable and she had to be carried to the shower room to be cleaned up.
Then we had to feed her and gave her medications.
Due to Dementia she would not listen or cooperate and this is why the Son and Daughter in law had to come to help and their time took up, lifting the old person from floor to bed and it can take up so much time with old people with so many illnesses. Then it was a mission getting her up trying to take her to the shower room, as she was scared of standing up or sitting down due to fear of falling and this is how dementia reacts.
His wife Not well herself, as she has Depression and she can be like a dormant person depending on mood swings and takes medication.
BB you can park as long as you like on the Limited Bay, as there is no time limit if you have the BB displayed.
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OP, and while the NTO is working its way through the system, pl get your friend to re-order the issues to present a timeline pl.
I live with my wife in ****;
Her mother, who is severely disabled, lives in *** with **** as a carer;
On *** my wife received a phone call/message from *** to the effect that ****;
We immediately drove to *** and parked in *** which is where my MIL lives;
My wife holds a BB, however in our rush we forgot to display this;
The situation in my MIL's house was **** and we stayed for *** until ***.
I won't offer a view on whether and for how long a BB would exempt the driver in this bay, others will comment. However, what's clear is that if on display it exempted the holder from the parking restriction without limit then this is strong mitigation. But if even on display it wouldn't exempt the holder from the time limit then its display is neither here nor there because the car was in situ for more than 1 hour. I think it's necessary to decide what emphasis to place on the BB compared to mitigating factors regarding the purpose of the visit and the situation you found. IMO it works to your advantage that the BB was not yours because if your wife's disability meant that if she was left with your MIL she would be of little assistance then you could hardly have left them in order to move your car out of prospective contravention.
I think we need a full set of facts beginning before you parked in order to work out where your main line(s) of defence might lie and how to present these to maximum effect.
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Thanks i see the detailed of the Traffic order information for the Burnley, Curzon street area.
I will inform my friend not to pay and wait for the Notice to Owner.
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No idea what that is, it might be an extract from a traffic order but a map on its own isn't worth diddly squat. An example of a traffic order would be the Curzon Street Area (Various Roads) Burnley, Burnley Borough (Part Revocation, Prohibition Of Waiting, Prohibition Of Loading, Limited Waiting etc) Order 2013 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QKlZ-g5RwJlqGGhY_SqyjCXtLoAoADob/view). There is no quicker way to get the traffic order, you're just going to have to wait for the council to send it to me.
That being said I think a case of compelling mitigation should be put to the council at the formal representations stage, which is why my advice is to wait for the notice to owner. If in the meantime we find out the TRO is flawed or missing, so much the better.
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(https://i.imgur.com/hncjpOn.jpeg)
Traffic Order map i digged out.
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The Traffic Order is what imposes the parking restriction, the sign is there to tell motorists what the restriction is. If no Traffic Order exists for the street, then despite a sign being there, there is no contravention, because the PCN has been served for a contravention of the Traffic Order, not the sign.
However, in most cases there is a Traffic Order, but we have found a few missing recently.
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Thank you for your replies.
He had replied to them when he received the PCN and they rejected. he has until 14/07/2024 to pay with discount. He can contest Penalty Charge Notice and waiting for the Notice to owner from the council, which he will lose the discount. I told him you should of contacted me and I would of asked the forum on behalf you.
Council are just compassionate at all and just rejecting , so you just pay up, by saying we are giving you discount. I don't think this council will offer discount again.
He never had BB cancelled, as this is his first time.
Blue Badge was issued to his wife and she went to help out on that day Mother in law who lives in different town, as other family member went to London.
I don't understand on this comment traffic order for this bay, you never know it might not exist
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Was the Blue Badge that you sent a copy of to the council issued to you, or was it your Mother-in law's?
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These are the council photos:
(https://i.imgur.com/WGhVevs.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Nzv9tPV.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/LTDeFNC.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/gy4Zg2Q.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/GwILbSj.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/CvfRjZz.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/rrB2kCH.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/p8KzaCH.png)
I'm not sure an appeal based on the signage would get very far.
If your friend waits for the notice to owner and then make a representation within 14 days of the date of issue, then the discount is almost invariably reoffered, so there is limited risk in carrying on; and formal representations are often given more thorough consideration by a more senior officer.
In the meantime I'll get hold of the traffic order for this bay, you never know it might not exist (we've had a number of such cases recently).
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The informal challenge was not confrontational in any way, so I am surprised they are playing hard-ball and not cancelling the PCN. Councils usually have a policy on responding to challenges to PCNs, and sometimes this is publicly available on their website, but I had a quick look and if its there, a more detailed search would be necessary as it is not on the parking pages.
So is it worth waiting for the Notice to Owner ? In theory, the discount option is lost if one waits for this, but many councils do re-offer the discount when rejecting formal representations against an NtO, but nothing is in writing to tell you this ! Therefore I would wait a bit for others to contribute, but clearly your friend would be requesting a discretionary cancellation. I don't think the worn bay markings are strong grounds for an appeal at the adjudicators, as the signs are clear, and also your reps implied the bay was clear enough to need to look at the signs and hence use the BB.
However, as I said, wait a bit for others to comment. Only question is this - has your friend had a PCN cancelled in similar circumstances, (failure to display the BB) ?
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Hi Guys,
My freind got a pcn and this is the letter he wrote and the parking services did not cancel the PCN and also did not mentioned anything about the marking lines fading away, as you can see from thier response and image of the road limited bay.
Has he got a chance for appeal.
(https://i.imgur.com/Id0i93K.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NZpjrqg.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7EPmc5M.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/QiClUA4.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ED19Lc6.jpeg)
https://maps.app.goo.gl/JMXjSLUTg7ppS2UZ8
https://lancashire.tarantoportal.com/PCN/ViewImages
Lancashire Parking Services,
PO BOX 1023
Preston,
PR1 3ZA
Dear Sir or Madam,
Parking ticket number: LQ53062433
Date of issue: 29/06/2024
Vehicle registration number: VK55ZWD
I am writing to formally challenge the above Penalty Charge Notice.
On 29th June 2024 my vehicle was issued with a Penalty Charge Notice for the reason of Contravention code 30 and parked for longer than permitted.
First of I like to apologized the inconvenience caused. However, I would like to explain why I had parked where I did and I would like to submit an appeal for the following reasons:
Please see attached evidence of the disabled badge, as i forgot to displayed the Disable badge on my car dashboard, as I had to come on emergency as my mother in law had a fall, she lives on her own and had a phone call from telecare, so I had to make an urgent visit, as the family member who usually look after was away to London and there was no one in the house.
We had the 2 nurses come Michelle and Carolyn from Urgent Community Rapid response team, which I was panicking and rushed to come to Preston and the Nurses were already here and the carer, which took all of us 4 hours to get her up, make her safe, as she is very vulnerable.
She has Dementia/Alzheimer’s, One eye loss of eyesight’s, Breast Cancer, Chronic Kidney Disease, High Blood Pressure, High Cholesterol, Incontinence issues, Knees Bone to Bone, Arthritis, Mental Health issue, Depression, Very Confused and Vulnerable. She needs to be monitored 24hrs due to her Vulnerability and lives on her own.
I am requesting under compassionate reasons for cancelling the PCN that the fine be waived for this reason.
I would like to point out the marking bay lines is also faded and hard to see where limited bay starts and finish.
Yours faithfully,