Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: JunotheCorso on June 27, 2024, 07:22:38 pm
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Your only procedural option is to submit an OOT SD. But on what grounds? I didn't do it/the cameras were not whatever are not procedural grounds for TEC, they're appeal grounds for an adjudicator.
We need a timeline.
Agreed, @JunotheCorso we need to understand how the correspondence got to the wrong address in the first place. Have you moved house since 28 June 2022, when the last V5C was issued?
Yes
I've found the scan of the letter that I sent via the post.
Have you contacted DVLA again since then? If not, I suggest you do so now.
Royal Mail won't have the letter any more, it's either been misdelivered or lost for good. If it were sitting in a Royal Mail office somewhere, even if the address had smudged or the envelope had disintegrated, it would still be pretty obvious where the contents need to be delivered to.
At this point I think all you can do is draft an OOT based on the timeline of events, you'll need to use forms PE3 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-pe3-challenge-an-unpaid-penalty-charge-notice) and PE9 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/challenge-a-traffic-enforcement-order-outside-london-boroughs-or-a-parking-charge-in-a-london-borough-form-te9).
Type up some draft wording for PE9 and put it on here for review.
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OP, you're correct as regards process. Let's focus on what might be more productive areas for consideration having regard to the fact that bailiffs' fees dwarf the council's penalty. As it stands, you still have the OOT step for which bailiffadviceonline's advice could be crucial.
Anyway, your email to the council pl.
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Let's move forward please: have you contacted bailiffonline?
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According to you, 1-2 weeks in advance of moving house you notified DVLA with a request for a new V5C on 4 March 2023 because yours was 'lost, stolen, damaged or destroyed'. Pl explain.
You did not receive a response.
You did not follow up with DVLA as required.
6 months later a PCN was issued to you at the 'old' address for a road traffic contravention.
Objectively, IMO the fault is yours. You had the legal duty and more than adequate time to get back to DVLA when your V5C was not received. But there's no evidence you did.
So, IMO even if you got the council and TEC to agree on the what, the why would still represent a considerable hurdle.
As said by others, have you contacted bailiffonline?
HC Anderson, I think you've made it abundantly clear several times that you believe it's my fault.
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According to you, 1-2 weeks in advance of moving house you notified DVLA with a request for a new V5C on 4 March 2023 because yours was 'lost, stolen, damaged or destroyed'. Pl explain.
You did not receive a response.
You did not follow up with DVLA as required.
6 months later a PCN was issued to you at the 'old' address for a road traffic contravention.
Objectively, IMO the fault is yours. You had the legal duty and more than adequate time to get back to DVLA when your V5C was not received. But there's no evidence you did.
So, IMO even if you got the council and TEC to agree on the what, the why would still represent a considerable hurdle.
As said by others, have you contacted bailiffonline?
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How much of this story has been communicated to the council etc?
Sent them an email about all of this on 25th june, no response.
Thanks. Have you contacted bailiffonline as advised?
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How much of this story has been communicated to the council etc?
Sent them an email about all of this on 25th june, no response.
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How much of this story has been communicated to the council etc?
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(https://i.imgur.com/YjayZsw.png)
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Your only procedural option is to submit an OOT SD. But on what grounds? I didn't do it/the cameras were not whatever are not procedural grounds for TEC, they're appeal grounds for an adjudicator.
We need a timeline.
Agreed, @JunotheCorso we need to understand how the correspondence got to the wrong address in the first place. Have you moved house since 28 June 2022, when the last V5C was issued?
Yes
I've found the scan of the letter that I sent via the post. Is there anything I can do to ask Royal Mail to see if they can have a look in their lost department?
I sent a V62 with with address change along with an old Logbook (prior address to this) Dated 04/03/2023 which was about 1-2 weeks after I moved out of the address on the warrant.
(https://i.imgur.com/vdXLjVi.png)
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A question for others regarding procedure: as the Enforcement Agents are agents of the council then should an Enforcement Notice and a notice of the intention to seize property pursuant to a visit be captured by a SAR?
If you want to make sure you get everything, just make one SAR to the council and another to the enforcement agents.
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A question for others regarding procedure: as the Enforcement Agents are agents of the council then should an Enforcement Notice and a notice of the intention to seize property pursuant to a visit be captured by a SAR?
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I have also sent Neil B a PM as he is the expert.
I'm no wiser than those that have responded.
I think the OP has an earlier thread which may explain the address problem?
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Your only procedural option is to submit an OOT SD. But on what grounds? I didn't do it/the cameras were not whatever are not procedural grounds for TEC, they're appeal grounds for an adjudicator.
We need a timeline.
Agreed, @JunotheCorso we need to understand how the correspondence got to the wrong address in the first place. Have you moved house since 28 June 2022, when the last V5C was issued?
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https://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/
I have also sent Neil B a PM as he is the expert.
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Shall we break this down pl..at the moment the type of contravention is actually not the issue intra-procedurally.
An Order for Recovery was issued to you at XXX address giving you until 6 Jan 2004 to pay the penalty.
You didn't. Neither did you submit a Stat Dec to reset the process.
Why?
Because the council were using the 'wrong' address and therefore neither the CC nor OfR was received you.
Your only procedural option is to submit an OOT SD. But on what grounds? I didn't do it/the cameras were not whatever are not procedural grounds for TEC, they're appeal grounds for an adjudicator.
We need a timeline.
If the bailiffs are at your door I recommend paying them because this caps your liability and in no way affects any OOT which you might submit.
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'Warrant issued to wrong address..'
OP, who cares about the rights and wrongs of PCNs and cameras?
A rather challenging question, but you're beyond reps and appeals procedurally unless you can legitimately submit an OOT SD so unless an extra-procedural opportunity is available??
But we wouldn't know because you've not told us.
Hello Andersen, Yes I am still working on trying to find the receipt for that. I do have screenshots of the online address change portal not working. It would not recognise my current address on the licence and kept informing to me to apply via post
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@Hippocrates must be about somewhere.
Same cameras listed in this article https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/southwark/all-the-bus-lanes-in-southwark-to-watch-out-for-as-council-issues-over-1-1million-in-fines/
The more salient part is the PCN wording as far as your case is concerned:
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/tommy-poirot-to-expose-all-london-councils'-bus-lane-enforcement/msg26266/#msg26266
(https://i.imgur.com/BFqnihY.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/E1myCgl.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/eT86STk.png)
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'Warrant issued to wrong address..'
OP, who cares about the rights and wrongs of PCNs and cameras?
A rather challenging question, but you're beyond reps and appeals procedurally unless you can legitimately submit an OOT SD so unless an extra-procedural opportunity is available??
But we wouldn't know because you've not told us.
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@Hippocrates must be about somewhere.
Same cameras listed in this article https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/southwark/all-the-bus-lanes-in-southwark-to-watch-out-for-as-council-issues-over-1-1million-in-fines/
The more salient part is the PCN wording as far as your case is concerned:
https://www.ftla.uk/the-flame-pit/tommy-poirot-to-expose-all-london-councils'-bus-lane-enforcement/msg26266/#msg26266
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I am here in my beloved Kos actually but also with ftla and all members in spirit. So, what's the story? Their PCNs were changed in February this year only.
When I get back ITN News are going to speak with me. I'll drop you a PM.
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@Hippocrates must be about somewhere.
Same cameras listed in this article https://southwarknews.co.uk/area/southwark/all-the-bus-lanes-in-southwark-to-watch-out-for-as-council-issues-over-1-1million-in-fines/
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I got wind of another PCN issued to my old address through a DSAR to the council (infact all councils in London which I did last week and compiled a list of email addressed.
Location: Southwark
Contravention: 34j
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2023 10:56
Stage: Warrant Issued February 2024
Caught by: 593
Location: WALWORTH ROAD OPPOSITE HAMPTON STREET
Google: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Ff5L2YFvdtcLoGEJ9
Looks like the bus lane markings are not being maintained, can barely see the bus lane marking as they are almost completed faded. According to google maps there is now a rather large road work patch across part of the bus lane
There is a tree directly in front of the sign blocking from a drivers point of view while in the road.
Video: https://imgur.com/2JrCZVS
(https://i.imgur.com/4KNIcRV.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/R3Fl8P3.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/GYOZiJY.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CYLR0Nq.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YWyOxWE.jpeg)