Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: thingie2 on June 27, 2024, 03:52:19 pm

Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on October 22, 2025, 11:31:09 pm
@thingie2 has not been active on here since July. Some people come here, take the advice and either don't use it or just don't bother to keep us updated. Nothing we can do about that.

If you have a PCN for the same location, please start your own thread and we can advise accordingly.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: Amancio on October 22, 2025, 11:24:44 pm
Thanks to all for the very helpful information in this thread. thingie2, would you mind sharing how this resolved after you sent the response to the letter of claim? I’m in a similar circumstance and am curious to know if that was it, or it went any further? Thanks
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on July 03, 2025, 03:48:32 pm
Why would you send anything by post if you can email it? Email is instant and you have a record of sending and delivery. No trees are harmed in the process either!

Completely my opinion!

I just know some things/processes are particularly fussy about the medium of delivery (e.g. my mortgage paperwork had to be returned physically, it couldn't be emailed), so just wanted to check this wasn't one of the similar things!
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on July 03, 2025, 03:45:12 pm
Why would you send anything by post if you can email it? Email is instant and you have a record of sending and delivery. No trees are harmed in the process either!
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: jfollows on July 03, 2025, 03:32:46 pm

I assume there's no issue sending this via email only, rather than via post?
None at all
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on July 03, 2025, 03:27:18 pm
Many thanks, I'll send that back to them & see what they respond with.

I assume there's no issue sending this via email only, rather than via post?
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on July 01, 2025, 03:11:55 pm
Just email them back at help@moorsidelegal.co.uk and CC yourself with the following:

Quote
Dear Sirs,

Your Letter Before Claim contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of evidence your client places reliance upon and thus is in complete contravention of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims.

Because your letter lacks specificity and breaches the requirements of the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2) as well as the Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)), you must treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents/information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol.

As solicitors you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction and the Pre-Action Protocol for debt claims and your client, as a serial litigator of debt claims, should likewise be aware of them. As you (and your client) must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is embarrassing that a firm of Solicitors are sending a consumer a vague and un-evidenced 'Letter of Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the Pre-Action Protocol.

I confirm that, once I am in receipt of a Letter Before Claim that complies with the requirements of para 3.1 (a) of the Pre-Action Protocol, I shall then seek advice and submit a formal response within 30 days, as required by the Protocol. Thus, I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. An explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; for how long it is claimed the vehicle was parked, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
6. If the claim is for a contractual breach, photographs showing the vehicle was parked in contravention of said contract.
7. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
8. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the BPA/IPC Private Parking Single Code of Practice (PPSCoP).
9. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
10. Photographs of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed) at the time of any alleged contravention.
11. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
12. Am I to understand that the additional £70 represents what is dressed up as a 'Debt Recovery' fee, and if so, is this nett or inclusive of VAT? If the latter, would you kindly explain why I am being asked to pay the operator’s VAT?
13. With regard to the principal alleged PCN sum: Is this damages, or will it be pleaded as consideration for parking?

I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13, 15(b) and (c) and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

Yours faithfully,

[Your name]
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on July 01, 2025, 02:27:45 pm
After a couple of "please pay us, or we might do something about it" letters, I recieved a LOC today, which I've attached (removing any names/unique reference numbers etc)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on March 12, 2025, 05:12:02 pm
A debt collector is not a party to any contract allegedly breached by the driver. It's exactly the same as if I now send you a debt collection letter saying you owe £100 to Alliance Parking. Because you haven't paid it yet, you now must pay me £170 or I'll tell Alliance that you haven't done so and to sue your @rse off.

Why would you bother responding to me?
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: jfollows on March 12, 2025, 02:50:55 pm
Yes.
No.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on March 12, 2025, 02:40:35 pm
I just recieved a letter from a "debt recovery firm", I assume the same advice still stands & to just ignore the letter? Is there any benefit/negative to contac them & tell them I do not agree I owe the dept?
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on November 06, 2024, 02:31:25 pm
Yes. If/when they send a Letter of Claim (LoC) or the actual claim, come back and we'll advise. In the meantime, simply ignore all debt collector letters. They are powerless to do anything except scare the gullible into paying them.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on November 06, 2024, 11:12:03 am
I went to try submitting the appeal, however it just says the time has passed (presumably as AP has 9th August as the date of the rejection, even though I didn't receive this until a few days ago).

I guess I just have to wait & see what they do now do I?
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: DWMB2 on November 05, 2024, 02:02:55 pm
If you're interested in one of the cases, VCS v Edward H0KF6C9C (2023) (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zra61px7l3if53o3bp9c4/VCS-v-EDWARD-Transcript.pdf?rlkey=bv4bba389nau5qpfglqkpjq5l&st=eo50dszx&dl=0), is an interesting one where, on appeal, it was shown that the burden of proof is on the claimant to show that the keeper was also the driver. No balance of probability at all.

This paragraph is of particular importance here:
(https://i.imgur.com/8rCJKFW.png)
In that case, VCS were seeking to make the suggestion that the defendant being the registered keeper of a vehicle is enough to swing the balance of probability in favour of them being the driver. As you will see, the judge disagreed with this suggestion in the absence of positive evidence.

Cheers, I guess I'll try the next level of the appeal then, as it'll simplify it somewhat if they consider it properly.

Show us a draft before sending anything.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on November 05, 2024, 01:41:49 pm
Cheers, I guess I'll try the next level of the appeal then, as it'll simplify it somewhat if they consider it properly.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on November 05, 2024, 01:21:54 pm
For an obvious PoFA failure PCN, it may be worth appealing to the IAS but don't hold your breath for a successful outcome.

If an IAS appeal is unsuccessful, they it has no bearing anything going forward. they'll send you a load of debt collector letters which you can safely ignore or use as kindling. They are powerless.

The may even issue claim in the hope that the initiation of litigation will scare you into paying them. However, they'd never dare let this get in front of a judge in the ultimate dispute resolution service, the small claims track of the county court.

They will either discontinue or try their luck where you could not be held liable as the keeper. They cannot simply assume or infer that you were the driver on the balance of probabilities. There is plenty of persuasive appeal case law to shut that argument down.

If you're interested in one of the cases, VCS v Edward H0KF6C9C (2023) (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/zra61px7l3if53o3bp9c4/VCS-v-EDWARD-Transcript.pdf?rlkey=bv4bba389nau5qpfglqkpjq5l&st=eo50dszx&dl=0), is an interesting one where, on appeal, it was shown that the burden of proof is on the claimant to show that the keeper was also the driver. No balance of probability at all.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on November 05, 2024, 08:59:17 am
So I've at least got confirmation I did submit an appeal...

They have also claimed they did respond, but it must be my fault that I didn't recieve this response.

They have now provided the response, however (attached). It seems very much like they haven't actually read the appeal (I don't think that'll really suprise anyone). Is it worth proceeding to the "independant" appeal service?

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on October 28, 2024, 03:45:11 pm
It would be a huge mistake to think that by moving and not providing them with an address for service of legal documents is going to be the end of this. All tat would mean is that you leave yourself wide open for a CCJ by default.

When you move you MUST contact the DPO of Alliance Parking and instruct them to rectify your data with your new address for service and for them to erase your old address. The highlighted words are there for a reason... use them.

You may want to assume that you did appeal to them and they have simply not responded. For what it's worth, you could respond to that letter with a complaint that you submitted an appeal and have not had any response to it. Ask why they have continued with enforcement without responding to the appeal.

Yea, I didn't think that would be a good idea, but for the sake of completeness, I'd add it, just incase. I'll try raising a complaint, asking why they didn't respond to my appeal then, see what they come back with.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on October 28, 2024, 02:24:01 pm
It would be a huge mistake to think that by moving and not providing them with an address for service of legal documents is going to be the end of this. All tat would mean is that you leave yourself wide open for a CCJ by default.

When you move you MUST contact the DPO of Alliance Parking and instruct them to rectify your data with your new address for service and for them to erase your old address. The highlighted words are there for a reason... use them.

You may want to assume that you did appeal to them and they have simply not responded. For what it's worth, you could respond to that letter with a complaint that you submitted an appeal and have not had any response to it. Ask why they have continued with enforcement without responding to the appeal.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on October 28, 2024, 02:07:43 pm
I got the attached letter just before the weekend:
(https://i.ibb.co/jfg8k9X/2024-10-28-14-01-Office-Lens.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jfg8k9X)

It seems either I didn't actually submit the appeal (I'm sure I did, but I can't find any confirmation number/email etc saying I did, so it's possible I never actually pressed submit or something), or they paid no attention to it.

What's my best course of action now? (It's unlikely to actually make a difference, but in case it does, we'll be moving in the next few weeks).
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on July 05, 2024, 11:53:41 am
Alliance Parking is not even attempting to rely on PoFA, because they can’t, and so there is none of the required wording in their NtK that holds the keeper liable for the charge.

You can read the requirements that Alliance need to follow in paragraph 9 of PoFA. The appeal provided covers what you need to tell them.

They should cancel but as they are ex-clamper scammers, they are likely to push back and demand that you name the driver. Don’t. You are under no legal obligation to name the driver. They are not an authority like the police or a council. They are simply an unregulated private parking company.

Let’s see their response to the appeal before we need to consider anything else at this stage.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on July 05, 2024, 09:18:29 am
Thank you both for the information & clarity, I will submit the appeal based on it not being "relevant land".

b789, you mentioned the NtK also doesn't meet the requriements for PoFA, can you clarify how it doesn't meet it, as a 2nd arrow in my quiver?
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on June 28, 2024, 01:54:54 pm
Even if the land were not under statutory control, the wording in the NtK does not comply with the requirements of PoFA. As long as the driver is not identified, inadvertently or otherwise, the keeper cannot be liable for the PCN.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: DWMB2 on June 28, 2024, 12:04:28 pm
It's promising that that it's not actually valid
To clarify, b789 didn't say that the charge is not valid - it may be the case that the driver owes Alliance money (although from your account of things, they may well have a defence). What he is saying is that they cannot recover any charge that the driver may owe from the registered keeper.

Just to confirm, how do you know the car park is not "relevant land"? How do I confirm this?
The harbour is subject to byelaws, which include rules on parking vehicles, and as such parking there is subject to 'statutory control', meaning it does not meet the definition of 'relevant land' as defined in Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (there's a link to the legislation in my signature under this post).

The byelaws are here: https://padstow-harbour.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/byelaws.pdf (https://padstow-harbour.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/byelaws.pdf) - they mention the area that they cover. So you need to check that your vehicle was parked within the area that is subject to the byelaws.
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on June 28, 2024, 11:43:59 am
Thanks for the response. It's promising that that it's not actually valid, however a little annoying that they're known to not care about this fact...

Just to confirm, how do you know the car park is not "relevant land"? How do I confirm this?
Title: Re: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: b789 on June 27, 2024, 11:40:21 pm
You have what is considered to be a "golden ticket" as long as the driver is not identified. Padstow Harbour is land under statutory control. I.e. Harbour Bylaws. Because of this, Alliance Parking  cannot issue a Notice to Keeper (NtK) relying on the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA) in order to transfer liability from the unknown driver to the known keeper.

You, the known keeper are under no legal obligation to identify the unknown (to Alliance) drivers identity and they are not allowed to assume or infer that the known keeper must also be the unknown driver. Do you see their dilemma?

Irrespective of the background story or mitigating circumstances, all you, the known keeper needs to put in an appeal is the following:

I am the registered keeper. Your NtK does not and cannot rely on PoFA 2012. As a matter of fact and law, Alliance Parking will be well aware that they cannot use the PoFA provisions to hold the keeper liable because Padstow Harbour is not 'relevant land'.

If Padstow Harbours landowners wanted to hold owners or keepers liable under harbour byelaws, that would be within the landowner's gift and another matter entirely. Not only is that not pleaded, it is also not legally possible because Alliance Parking is not the harbour owner and your 'parking charge' is not and never attempts to be a penalty. It is created for Alliance Parking's own profit (as opposed to a byelaws penalty that goes to the public purse) and Alliance Parking has relied on contract law allegations of breach against the driver only. The registered keeper cannot be presumed to have been, nor inferred, nor pursued as the driver under some twisted interpretation of the law of agency.

Alliance Parking have no hope at IAS, so you are urged to save us both a complete waste of time and cancel the PCN.

However, you are dealing with a bunch of ex-clamper thugs who are intellectually malnourished and if they don't accept your appeal, you actually have little hope that the IAS will uphold it either as they are incestuously partners with their paymaster operator members.

Not to worry. If this ever made it all the way to a county court claim, they would receive a spanking from a truly independent arbiter, a judge. Alliance Parking are possibly knuckle-dragging enough to carry on with debt collector threats in the vain hope you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will capitulate in fear when idle threats of legal action is threatened. As you're now here seeking advice, I think we can safely assume that you are not gullible and will heed the advice based on many years of experience in dealing with these cowboy scammers.
Title: Alliance Parking PCN - Padstow Harbour South Quay car park
Post by: thingie2 on June 27, 2024, 03:52:19 pm
Upon arival at the car park, the driver was blocked for ~10 minutes upon entering, due to another vehicle who had stopped in the road of the car park (despite the notices of no waiting) & as there was no space to go around this vehicle, or any alternative routes through the car park, there was no option but to wait until they had moved. Upon moving, the drive proceeded to enter a parking space & parking payment was obtained.
The vehicle was returned to towards the end of the period paid for, however upon returning to the vehicle, it was noticed the 5-month old traveling in the vehicle needed a nappy change & a feed before leaving (even though this was already planned for & done ~30 mins previously, it was needed again) & due to the next leg of the journey was ~1 hour, this could not wait. Fundamentally it was thought the vehicle still left within the paid period, but it seems this was not the case (ring-go history says payment was paid for from 12:00-14:00)


I, as the registered keeper of the vehicle recieved the PCN ~1 week after the event. I've attached a copy of the PCN (with, I beleive all PII redacted).

Can anything be done to fight this?

Car park location: https://maps.app.goo.gl/aRNmsBHK1yGoGyJF7

(https://i.ibb.co/c6456pw/2024-06-27-15-44-Office-Lens.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c6456pw) (https://i.ibb.co/Z6mMxqN/2024-06-27-15-45-Office-Lens.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z6mMxqN)