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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: drobmet on July 21, 2023, 01:59:16 am

Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: drobmet on August 17, 2023, 04:05:05 am
Hi Everyone,

A brief update, I have received a letter to say in this instance, the PCN has been cancelled.

https://ibb.co/5TwC0SD

It would appear it may have been a discretionary decision, as they upheld the PCN was issued correctly.

Nevertheless, it is one less thing to worry about now. Thanks to everyone for their time and help with this one, it's greatly appreciated.

All the best to all!
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: drobmet on July 25, 2023, 01:41:47 am
@cp8759 Thanks so much for that update, I really appreciate it.

I managed to send in my representation with documentation earlier before midnight, so now we will wait and see what they respond with.

I will update this topic once I receive an answer.

Thanks again to all for your time and efforts, supremely appreciated.

All the best to all!
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: cp8759 on July 24, 2023, 09:50:01 pm
Draft representations which include all the points made above:

Dear London Borough of Croydon,

On the 19th April 2023, whilst driving in the Croydon area, my disabled passenger experienced an overwhelming pain requiring her to use the bathroom. As she is a diagnosed sufferer of IBS, Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia, this abdominal pain can be excruciating and all encompassing, preventing her from being able to walk properly, even when aided. It is something that needs addressing as soon as it occurs as it can lead to sustained pain and extreme chronic fatigue in the subsequent days, requiring lots of recovery.

As her personal carer, and driver of the vehicle, I parked at the first available opportunity on Firth Road in order to search for a public restroom and urgently accompany my passenger for something that was out of my control and a medical emergency. Due to her needing assistance with both boarding and alighting, I hurriedly displayed the disabled badge and attended to her.

Rushing out of the car, we encountered a CEO on the street opposite. I quickly pointed out my car and asked if where I was parked was alright as my partner needed a restroom urgently due to her disabilities. He responded, 'That’ll be fine, it’s on a single yellow, no worries.’

Upon returning to my vehicle having attended to my Partner and ensured her safety and comfort, I was horrified to discover that a PCN envelope had been attached to my windscreen. Upon closer inspection, the envelope had not had its backing removed, and was loose and empty. I then found the PCN next to the front wheel of my car on the ground.

I enclose a copy of both the front and back of the Blue badge issued to my passenger, together with my passenger’s disability documentation for reference, and photos of the PCN and its envelope.

I would point out that even on a loading restriction, a driver is entitled to stop to allow passengers to board or alight, and where a passenger requires assistance to or from premises this exemption includes assisted boarding or alighting where the driver needs to leave the vehicle, as long as the driver leaves the vehicle only for so long as is necessary to convey the passenger to the nearby premises where they are going and then returns to move his car without delay.

This is what happened on this occasion and the assisted alighting exemption does not require a blue badge.

In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: drobmet on July 24, 2023, 05:25:59 pm
@Pastmybest Ok, I shall add that on later today when I get home in order to send this.

Do you think everything else was ok? Should I add more detail? Or edit it down somewhat?

Should change my story regarding the PCN on the window / ground? Or is my current edit ok?

Should I be sending photos of the envelope with the PCN now? Or leaving it for another time?

Once again, really huge appreciation for your time and many thanks to all!
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: Pastmybest on July 24, 2023, 01:43:55 pm
I would add at the end of paragraph 2 only, Subsequent research shows that in the case of a medical emergency as this was no BB would be required 
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: drobmet on July 24, 2023, 12:55:26 am
Hi Everyone,

Apologies for not attending to this sooner, there has been a family emergency that I needed to attend to and has overwhelmed me.

I hereby include my draft representation. I’m not sure how much time I’ll have tomorrow to make major edits, so if anyone could assist, I would be greatly appreciative!

——-

Dear Sirs,

On the 19th April 2023, whilst driving in the Croydon area, my disabled passenger experienced an overwhelming pain requiring her to use the bathroom. As she is a diagnosed sufferer of IBS, Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia, this abdominal pain can be excruciating and all encompassing, preventing her from being able to walk properly, even when aided. It is something that needs addressing as soon as it occurs as it can lead to sustained pain and extreme chronic fatigue in the subsequent days, requiring lots of recovery.

As her personal carer, and driver of the vehicle, I parked at the first available opportunity on Firth Road in order to search for a public restroom and urgently accompany my passenger for something that was out of my control and a medical emergency. Due to her needing assistance with both boarding and alighting, i hurriedly displayed the disabled badge and attended to her.

Rushing out of the car, we encountered a CEO on the street opposite. I quickly pointed out my car and asked if where I was parked was alright as my partner needed a restroom urgently due to her disabilities. He responded, 'That’ll be fine, it’s on a single yellow, no worries.’

Upon returning to my vehicle having attended to my Partner and ensured her safety and comfort, I was horrified to discover that a PCN envelope had been attached to my windscreen. We were very confused having been advised by an on duty CEO it would be ok.

Upon closer inspection, the envelope had not had its backing removed, and was loose and empty. The PCN I later found next to the front wheel of my car on the ground.

Based on the photos provided as part of my PCN, I see the reflection of someone who had seemingly attached the PCN. I would like to confirm whether the CEO was authorised and in the correct uniform that would allow them to issue a PCN.

I enclose a copy of both the front and back of the Blue badge issued to my passenger, together with my passenger’s disability documentation for reference, and photos of the PCN and its envelope.

There was no intent or purpose to evade any parking restriction. I sincerely apologise for this occurrence outside of my control but it is one which is unfortunate and unforeseen.

I would therefore kindly request an exemption given the circumstances and evidence provided, and ask that this PCN be cancelled.

Thank you and kind regards

——-

@Pastmybest Just to confirm, my original representation stated the PcN was attached to my windshield as I was advised before not to bother with saying it was on the ground. I have therefore reworked the story as if I am adding more detail. Please advise whether I should stick to this, or write something else. My actually experience was the entirety of the envelope and loosely attached PCN were on the ground.

Also, should I be sending photos of / mentioning the PCN and envelope with backing now? Or leave it for the moment?

I don’t want to go into all the gruesome details, so hopefully this is enough for my representation. I will endeavour to check the forum in the morning to make adjustments throughout the day if I can and get this sent online by the evening.

Thanks all, and I hope for further help if required.
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: Pastmybest on July 22, 2023, 10:59:55 am
Ok without being disrespectful to others You are not asking for mitigation but claiming a legal exemption of stopped for reasons beyond your control and or a medical emergency. The BB is an irrelevance so do not even mention it.

Draft a challenge and post it here and se will tidy it up for you. Start with the medical conditions creating an overwhelming need for the toilet explain the pain that is caused, also point out that you are the carer to your  and that you had to accompany them. Then make  the point that the PCN was not on your car but on the floor next to it point out the backing had not been removed and that the PCN was not in the envelope just stuck to a part of the adhesive strip. As for the uniform point out that you spoke to a CEO and checked that you would be OK where you were parked and they said yes, then ask for confirmation that the CEO was authorised and in the correct uniform that would allow them to issue a PCN 
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: drobmet on July 22, 2023, 02:00:43 am
Apologies all for my late response, it has been a trying day.


@cp8759 Not sure if relevant. But it was my partner rather than Mother. Because I am her daily carer, her disabled badge is registered to my car.

The two conditions relevant to this case would be her IBS and Fibromyalgia ( a chronic pain condition ). Fibro affects her on a daily basis to varying degrees, but she receives benefits due to her debilitations being severe enough she needs my care and assistance every day.

The two can interplay in a very sudden and painful way and is what necessitated the stop, the pain was just too much to manage or control her IBS.

I do actually still have the envelope. Ive kept it flat on its original backing. It seems the top strip was taken off, but half of it attached to itself. The main backing remained, though has dried somewhat by now. It was next to my car on the ground close to my front wheel when I found it. The photo of it on my car shows it wasn’t exactly neatly applied to the window. Shall I post photos off what remains?

Not sure how to approach the uniform perhaps not being compliant, but adding it as a point of contention couldn’t hurt?


@Pastmybest She is diagnosed with both IBS and Fibromyalgia, which is what was at play here, and required the quick stop.


@lexy Yes, it was certainly my oversight not looking for the blips or checking for the no loading sign behind the one way sign. I allowed the situation to overwhelm me, and focused on my partner rather than where I was parking.

She does rely on me for ‘assisted boarding and alighting’ more often than not.

A walking stick is always present in the car as her Fibromyalgia at it’s worst will require her to use a wheelchair or a mobility scooter ( her condition is variable, but walking stick used daily ) and in this scenario, I was supporting her, walking / stumbling as quickly as possible arm in arm. The CEO we passed certainly saw this, and I believe realising she was disabled and having trouble, advised as they did seemingly in error.


@Ugly duckling The reason for the length of time was due to her struggling to get to the bathroom followed by my required assistance. We went as quickly as we could. How would you suggest I communicate this more effectively than I already have?


Thanks all for your quick responses and advice, I truly appreciate it and look forward to hopefully reading more later ( I’ll try interact during the day if I can )
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: cp8759 on July 22, 2023, 01:01:37 am
One key point is that the mitigation put forward needs to be compelling.
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: guest179 on July 21, 2023, 09:30:34 pm
Whether assisted alighting or circumstances beyond your control, IMO you'll have to say more than 'Upon returning to my vehicle approximately 30 minutes later'.
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: lexy on July 21, 2023, 06:38:10 pm
The problem is, the PCN was correctly issued on the surface. Blue badges can be used on ordinary yellow lines, but not where there are stripes up the kerb.

You're going to have to go hard for the emergency/disability thing - it's all you've got here. There's also an argument for 'assisted boarding and alighting' if she needed help to get in/out of the car and to the facilities. That's allowed in places that have stripes up the kerb.
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: cp8759 on July 21, 2023, 12:10:22 pm
Council photos might support the view that the envelope was not properly attached:

(https://i.imgur.com/P1HI8AZ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/T3uGNHt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/6LeTyfW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/LkNif24.jpg)

We've got an appeal being run at the moment on this point, but the OP had the foresight to keep the envelope with the removable strip that covers the adhesive still attached, so this can be produced to the adjudicator.

Also the CEO can be seen reflected in the last image and based on that image, I'd suggest we put them to proof as to whether he was wearing a compliant uniform.
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: Pastmybest on July 21, 2023, 11:09:03 am
I diagnosed medical condition that can lead to an unexpected urgent need to use a toilet woyld be consideredd as beyond your control(an exemption) also from your narritive there is an argument that service has not been properly effected but we need to see all the council photos You have until the 25th to submit representations so act quickly to show us the photos and give an indication of the medical condition then we can help draft a representation
Title: Re: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Bad
Post by: cp8759 on July 21, 2023, 09:32:44 am
Can you give us some details about any medical condition your mother has that might amount to mitigation?

I had a blue badge appeal the other day and the adjudicator was quite interested in hearing about that, even if only to invite the council to re-consider the question of mitigation.

Incidentally, do you still have the yellow envelope?
Title: Croydon Code 02 Parked or Loading/Unloading in a restricted street, Frith Road, Stopped due to disabilities with Badge
Post by: drobmet on July 21, 2023, 01:59:16 am
Hi Everyone,

I have been kindly advised to re post here having already posted this topic in another forum. Hopefully I can get some advice on the matter. For reference, here is the old post: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=149694

I received a PCN in somewhat peculiar circumstances. My partner is disabled, and we have a valid disabled badge for our car.

We were passing through the croydon area, when my partner desperately required the bathroom due to one of her debilitations. Knowing there was a shopping centre nearby, i found a street close, and approaching where I parked, looked up in a rush and saw only the one way sign on the lamp post. I parked at the first opportunity where there was no one else parked.

I displayed the badge correctly, and we moved quickly for the centre walking away from the car from the passenger side. Across the street walking by was a CEO. Passing by in a hurry, I asked if it was ok to park where I had as my partner desperately needed the bathroom and was disabled. He said, I quote, 'That’ll be fine, it’s on a single yellow, no worries.’ Feeling reassured, we hurried for the centre.

We returned to the car from the passenger side. After letting my partner in, I opened the driver side door, and saw a yellow PCN envelope on the ground between my car and the lamp post. The envelope appeared a little mangled, and had half of it stuck to itself. I opened it out of curiosity, to reveal it was indeed for my car. Confused, I stepped out, and It was then I looked at the post and spotted the No Loading sign.

Sadly, I had made an error, and missed the clear blips on the road due to the situation I was in and not seeing them as other cars were parked right behind where I stopped.

Here is the original PCN:

PCN Front - https://ibb.co/x3hQ4qs
PCN Back - https://ibb.co/5MssCjh
My Photo - https://ibb.co/brsZkc1

Since then, I made the following representation within the discounted period:

------

I parked my vehicle on 19th April 2023 at Firth Road whilst I urgently assisted my disabled passenger.

We were passing through the Croydon area, and unfortunately due to her disabilities and IBS, she suddenly desperately required the bathroom. I stopped at the earliest opportunity in order to try and find a public restroom.

Due to the time sensitive nature of the situation, as I entered Firth Road, I saw it was a single yellow line throughout, and the earliest opportunity to stop was where I parked.

I hurriedly displayed our disabled badge, and rushing out of the car, we encountered a CEO on the street opposite. I quickly pointed out my car and asked if where I was parked was alright as my partner needed a restroom urgently due to her disabilities. He responded, 'That’ll be fine, it’s on a single yellow, no worries.’

Upon returning to my vehicle approximately 30 minutes later having attended to my Partner and ensured her safety and comfort, I was horrified to discover that a PCN had been attached to my windscreen. We were very confused having been advised by an on duty CEO it would be ok.

I enclose a copy of both the front and back of the Blue badge, together with my passenger’s disability documentation for reference.

There was no intent or purpose to evade any parking restriction. I sincerely apologise for this occurrence but it is one which is unfortunate and unforeseen.

I would therefore kindly request your discretion, given the circumstances, in cancelling this PCN.

Thank you and kind regards

------

And subsequently received the following response:

Page 1:
https://ibb.co/Vg15xVS

Page2:
https://ibb.co/njCnfc1

Page 3:
https://ibb.co/Zz4pZxK

Page 4:
https://ibb.co/RT0vXVv

Choosing to take others advice, I decided to indeed wait for the NTO and try and fight our corner to see if anything could be done.

------

It has been a while, and in typical fashion, today I received the NTO much later than anticipated. So late, in fact, I have but 2 days, if I’m counting correctly, to put together a representation. Here are the 3 pages received:

Page 1
https://ibb.co/X8jzRw7

Page2
https://ibb.co/VQnGHLP

Page 3
https://ibb.co/RyVxz38

I have read the NTO carefully, and can’t see any procedural impropriety, however I am not as well versed as many of you are, so I may have missed something.

I suppose my questions now, given the limited time I have to respond online, are:

1. Are there any procedural improprieties anyone has spotted that I have missed?
2. Is there a way to ask for any additional time to form a representation, given the delay in the post of the NTO?
3. Should I simply copy and paste my previous representation?
4. If not, would anyone have any advice as to what to include and the best way to form it for the new representation?

@cp8759 Thank you for your post elsewhere, I have read the Carl Peters v Cheshire West and Chester Council result. It is encouraging, although there, the driver themselves were in trouble, rather than a passenger the driver may have been attempting to assist. Is there any way you can imagine my referencing this case, so I could perhaps utilise it in my representation?

Thanks again to everyone for their time and knowledge in advance, it’s greatly appreciated!