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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: shadowliner on June 23, 2024, 03:00:00 pm

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: cp8759 on July 06, 2024, 05:22:00 pm

Quote from: Neil B on July 04, 2024, 05:23:46 pm

Well it doesn't change anything; the matter is certainly not "closed" and you continue as previously advised

Well, @shadowliner I think you have shot yourself in the foot by replying to the charge certificate. If the council don't want to pursue the matter then it will never go to TEC, and you cannot force them to. We can try, but if they ultimately ignore you then that's the end of the matter.

For now you will have to write back as follows:

Dear London Borough of Harrow,

Thank you for confirming that "I have reviewed your case, and although your payment was made late, we have decided to accept the amount you have paid as payment in full", but this is not an acceptable answer. Please would you reinstate the charge certificate and register the debt with the Traffic Enforcement Centre so that the matter may follow the statutory process. Failure to follow the statutory process will result in a formal complaint.

Yours faithfully,

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: Neil B on July 04, 2024, 05:23:46 pm

Well it doesn't change anything; the matter is certainly not "closed" and you continue as previously advised

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: shadowliner on July 04, 2024, 03:04:12 pm

I was excited about the prospect of the PCN going to TEC and all the associated processes, but today I received this from Harrow;

Quote

Thank you for writing to us.
It is now too late for you to challenge, or continue challenging, your Penalty Charge Notice
(PCN). The Enforcement Notice form we sent you gave you 28 days to challenge your PCN,
but this time has now passed.
We sent you a PCN because our camera evidence shows your vehicle in a bus lane at a
time when only buses are allowed there.
The bus lane is clearly sign- posted and marked out on the road surface. The legend ‘BUS
LANE’ is marked on the road, and there is a solid white line running along the right-hand
edge of the bus lane for its full length. The onus is on the driver to be aware of the bus lane
and its restrictions. The signage and markings meet all the statutory requirements as set
down in the latest Traffic Signs Regulations & General Directions. Please note the onus is on
the driver to be aware of provisions relating to Bus Lines in the Highway Code rule 141 and
142. These restrictions apply Any time (Monday - Sunday).
I have reviewed your case, and although your payment was made late, we have decided to
accept the amount you have paid as payment in full.
Please be advised that this does not set a precedent for future notices, as each case is
treated on its own merits. It is imperative that motorists always comply with traffic sign and
regulations, and payment is made on or before the 14 days statutory period. I can confirm
that the notice is now closed.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: shadowliner on June 30, 2024, 09:38:38 pm

Thank you all. I have some reading to do

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 03:59:21 pm

@shadowliner you must follow the instructions given in this other guide instead (this is not the same as the one I posted above): https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-l-1805/

You want to start calling TEC around the 16th or 17th July.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: Hippocrates on June 28, 2024, 08:39:05 pm

Phew.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: H C Andersen on June 28, 2024, 05:54:36 pm

Good news.

See the process, and it is only the process which counts at present, so forget about the £65.

You received an EN dated 7 Nov. 2023.

You can evidence making reps on 13 Nov. which is 'in time'.

You did not receive a response to those reps.

From the Tribunal website: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/bus-lane-pcn-enforcement-process#rod

Statutory Declaration
Where an Order for Recovery has been made, liability for the penalty can then only be challenged in the following circumstances:

You did not receive the enforcement notice in question; or
You made representations to the enforcing authority concerned but did not receive a Notice of Rejection from that authority; or..

CC dated 17 June 2024. The council may issue an OfR any time after 9 July.
In any event you wrote to them (2024, not 2023) pointing out the error of their ways.

If they don't see their error then an OfR would come your way and in time you would submit a Stat Dec. and the matter would be referred to the adjudicator.

It's all about the OfR now.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: shadowliner on June 28, 2024, 05:17:03 pm

Hi all, this is where I come back my tail between my legs.

I have to change my story as per previous posts because it seems that I did in fact receive an EN. And I replied to it.

I'd just completely forgotten about it.

I only found it after trying to look for an unrelated file on my computer that has "Harrow" in it.

I'll start again from the beginning;

Offence date: 03/08/2023

PCN date: 16/08/2023

Challenge date: Unknown
I can't remember the content of the challenge, nor can I find a record of its date.

Payment date: 25/10/2023
Payment receipt for £65 received from Harrow by email.

EN date: 07/11/2023
I don't have a copy of this.

EN reply: 13/11/2023
I replied to the EN through the Harrow website with the following;

Hello,
I made a payment for this PCN on 25/10 as per the
requirements on the website.
I clicked "pay" and I had no option but to pay £65.
I have now received a letter suggesting I have not paid fully,
when I did pay fully as per the options given to me on your
website.
Please can you let me know why this is the case? I am being
chased for a payment that I have already paid fully as per
the information presented to me, and now I am receiving
contradictory information by post.

I also attached a PDF of the payment receipt.

CC date: 17/06/2023
As per photos above.

CC reply: 23/06/2024
I replied to the CC through the Harrow website with;

Hello,
I have just received a Charge Certificate re this contravention.
On 25th October 2023, I logged into the online system on your website to make a payment of the PCN.
I was not given an option as to how much was needed to be paid. I presented with the fact that I needed to pay £65.00.
I paid this amount.
I have a receipt confirming this from you. Unique Tran ID XXXXXXXXX. Payment Reference XXXXXXXXX.
I considered the matter concluded.
Since 25th October 2023, I have not had any communication regarding this contravention at all.
I have now received a Charge Certificate that states I need to pay £130.00. This Charge Certificate also refers to an Enforcement Notice issued in November 2023. No such notice was received.
I would request that the matter is closed. I paid the PCN in good faith, and as per instructions on the website. I have had no communication since October 2023.
Thank you

After sending this, I realised that I had received the EN, and followed up with an email to parking.enforcement@harrow.gov.uk (as the functionality to reply through the website had gone);

Follow up to the challenge for XXXXXXXX

To follow up to my previous communication with you re XXXXXXX.

I would like to add that I have just discovered that I did communicate with your office in November 2023, as per the attached confirmation.

I did not hear back from you following this at all.

Attached: confirmation of submittal of my original response to the EN.


After all this, I do wonder if I screwed up in my response to the EN, and maybe even my response to the CC.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: Hippocrates on June 27, 2024, 02:20:33 pm

https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/bus-lane-pcn-enforcement-process

Bus lane process explained for the OP. I am happy to represent at the Tribunal.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: Hippocrates on June 26, 2024, 09:55:04 pm

What nonsense from Harrow.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: cp8759 on June 26, 2024, 06:55:00 pm

Hold on a minute everyone, this is a bus lane PCN so a statutory declaration can be made on the ground that the enforcement notice was not received. This applies regardless of anything and everything else stated in this thread so far.

@shadowliner you must follow the instructions given in this guide: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/

This will ultimately see the Order for Recovery and the Charge Certificate cancelled, and the council should hopefully issue a new Enforcement Notice.

My view is that representations should be submitted against the Enforcement Notice asking for a refund of the £65 you've already paid, because we can use the undue delay argument on top of all the usual arguments we use for London bus lanes. If the council issues a notice of rejection, we can appeal to the tribunal and hopefully get the £65 refunded.

Lastly please read the guidance here (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/) and stop over-redacting documents.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: H C Andersen on June 24, 2024, 09:25:14 am

I paid £65 on the Harrow website as per instructions, then forgot about it. I wasn't able to pay any more or any less, I paid what the website told me to pay.

£65 paid: 25/10/23

EN issued: 7/11/2023

OP, IMO procedurally the issue is why you did not receive(if indeed you did not) or action the Enforcement Notice. Although(oddly one might think) having paid the penalty is not one of the statutory grounds for representations, I feel confident that had you proved you had paid the PCN would have been cancelled.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: Chaseman on June 24, 2024, 07:13:35 am

Putting two and two together, did you challenge informally, lose the appeal, get re-offered the discount period and then pay at the discounted amount but outside the period? So the Council keeps your £65, records that you still owe the other £65 and then bangs in the CC 10 months later calculated at the rate of (£130 + 50%) - £65? Others can opine on whether the CC is out of time but in the meantime it would be good to have the exact chronology of PCN issue, date of challenge, date of rejection, date of payment. I know you have given some of this already but it would be good to get it in a clear schedule.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: Neil B on June 24, 2024, 03:17:14 am

So did you receive a rejection to your challenge (you called it an 'appeal'), offering the chance to pay at discount again?

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: shadowliner on June 23, 2024, 09:18:25 pm

Thanks Incandescent and H C Andersen.

I have a payment receipt from the council itself in my emails. My payment has been noted on the CC;

"To date you have paid - £65.00"

But it's the timelines that feels mad. I will attempt to take it up with them and update accordingly.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: H C Andersen on June 23, 2024, 08:28:29 pm

Ask the authority for copies of all notices sent to you. If they won't then submit a SAR.

You need to see what's been issued.

Title: Re: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: Incandescent on June 23, 2024, 08:06:27 pm

Have you proof of payment, or can get something from your bank to show that you have ?

It does seem to me they they are abusing the process. If you actually had'nt paid, they could have issued the CC very soon after the period for payment of the Enforcement Notice expired, which would have been early this year.

As you did pay, they had no need to serve an EN, so you didn't get one.  It all looks like a council ****-up, but do first check your payment went through first. Certainly DO NOT pay the CC, because you can revert the process when they register the debt at TEC.

Title: Harrow - Charge Certificate, even though I paid
Post by: shadowliner on June 23, 2024, 03:00:00 pm

Harrow council.

Being in bus lane. I appealed.

Offence date: 3/8/23
PCN issued: 16/8/23
£65 paid: 25/10/23

I paid £65 on the Harrow website as per instructions, then forgot about it. I wasn't able to pay any more or any less, I paid what the website told me to pay.

Now, I've received a Charge Certificate, 10 months after the offence. And they're asking for another £130?

No enforcement notice received in November.

Not sure what to do here, as there seem to be no mention of how to discuss/appeal this.


Charge Cert: https://ibb.co/QkS4bC2

(shame the pepipoo forums are no more, long live ftla!)