Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: ekuhgk23 on June 23, 2024, 12:29:35 am
-
So, resolved by reference to proper procedure.
What have you received pl?
This should close the matter as between you and the council...
..however....
this would not stop them in their stupidity/greed from contacting the garage once again. And if they did, where would this leave you and the garage?
You told us in June that the garage had received a Notice of Rejection(quite proper, I suspect, because I doubt they complied with correct procedure and as driver you have no liability). So the council's error was to pursue you, nowt to do with the garage as such.
And as the 28-day appeal period allowed the garage from the NoR has now lapsed they have nowhere to go procedurally*.
Have you kept the garage up to speed with developments? I'd hate for them to get a CC and then charge you..or would this be your insurer?
*- despite the 28-day period for making an appeal having lapsed they could register an appeal late and have a compelling case for doing so.
-
Well done. Incredulous story. But, hardly surprising. :o
-
Hi all
Thanks for your help with this. This matter is now closed, in my favour :D
-
Hi all
Some news. While waiting for the days to pass, so that I could fill out the form above, I've found this article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68217847. It turns out croydon council were found issuing charge certificates and no pcns first.
I knew something was up and that I didn't get a pcn so did some digging. I tried contacting the number today (in Croydon's response at the end of the article). I recorded the call and there were some inconsistencies. I asked if they issued a pcn to me and they told me yes on 06/02 at first. When I asked how it was possible for them to do this on the same day as the alleged contravention when it would have been done via post they changed their tune. This car was also a replacement from a garage via my insurer so no way they would have had my details on the day. When I caught them in the lie they changed their tune, told me they did not know anything more and to email the pcn team. They couldn't find another date on the system -which is interesting as their charge certificate says 18/04 -but I wasn't about to tell them that so they could wriggle out of it.
I had already emailed on the weekend when I found the article. However, it could take 56days-90days for them to respond according to the automatic reply. They are cancelling charges that have been affected but only until January (info in article) so I will probably have to go through the process you guys on here outlined which is a shame as I'm certain the problem in the article has affected me. I have emailed a Croydon Councillor and will also email my MP.
My problem with this is, Croydon is bankrupt and has been for years. They know they are wrongly triple charging (£195 instead of £65) and yet months later seem to be trying to pull the same scam. To add to this, there is also the original issue that they are going after the garage for the money as well as me for the same contravention so really trying to monetise! I have a copy of the rejection notice they sent to the garage.
Link to the auto reply Croydon had on the mailbox https://imgur.com/a/QY8jQuR
If there are any other ideas of how to close this down sooner, please let me know. Otherwise, I will follow the steps in the post above. My ideal scenario would be to get them to cancel it with all the other incorrectly issued charges they are cancelling. I would wait until they get to my email but as shown in the link above, if it has already been passed to enforcement they are not cancelling and I don't want that to be me.
-
Thank you. I have read it and understand. However, please can you clarify if the form still has to be signed in front of someone? I have found conflicting recent guidance on this.
As Neil says, just follow the guide and you can't go wrong. We have checked and rechecked the guide to make sure it's 100% correct.
-
Thank you. I have read it and understand. However, please can you clarify if the form still has to be signed in front of someone? I have found conflicting recent guidance on this.
the form, when you eventually get it, will make that clear; it has to be sworn (by you) and signed in front of a court officer or solicitor who will then countersign as witness to that swearing.
The guide linked to you by cp8759 is correct; don't go reading any conflicting advice.
-
@ekuhgk23 everything you've posted is all well and good, but as H C Andersen points out none of that matters right now.
You need to follow the guidance here please: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
Please confirm that you understand the next steps, or ask anything you want us to clarify.
Thank you. I have read it and understand. However, please can you clarify if the form still has to be signed in front of someone? I have found conflicting recent guidance on this.
-
OP, one step at a time pl.
As you don't have a PCN yet???
IMO, you're straying into what happened with the contravention and other PCN-related issues - when you haven't even got an OfR, let alone got TEC to revoke.
In short, you're getting ahead of the process. Pl just focus on checking with TEC from the second week in July to see whether an OfR has been issued.
Yes that's correct. Still no PCN. They have issued a reminder this week however. Should I upload a pic?
-
@ekuhgk23 everything you've posted is all well and good, but as H C Andersen points out none of that matters right now.
You need to follow the guidance here please: https://www.ftla.uk/announcements/charge-certificates-london-local-authorities-and-tfl-act-2003-london-local-autho/
Please confirm that you understand the next steps, or ask anything you want us to clarify.
-
OP, one step at a time pl.
As you don't have a PCN yet???
IMO, you're straying into what happened with the contravention and other PCN-related issues - when you haven't even got an OfR, let alone got TEC to revoke.
In short, you're getting ahead of the process. Pl just focus on checking with TEC from the second week in July to see whether an OfR has been issued.
-
Hi all
Does anyone know what the LLA 2003 - No address for postal payments means? I've tried reading through the act but finding it a bit difficult and wordy. However on the spreadsheet below it meantions croydon council not adding an address for postal payments. Is this required by law? The pepipoo link is not working for me. On the charge certificate there was no options for postal payments so probably won't be on the pcn which could be helpful if it's a loophole
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pVrE76_RYY6bNmEpYGbsZkxtpfIeud_BT3SKfg7TzQM/edit?gid=0#gid=0
-
Hi all.
I have found out some more info which will be vital.
Croydon Council sent the PCN to the garage.
1.The garage named me but the council sent them a notice of rejection dated 23/04/24 .
2. I received a charge certificate but no pcn dated 20/06/24
3. Council and claimed to have sent me the pcn 18/04/24 which clashes with the rejection they sent the garage
4. the garage claimed they named me as a driver but then randomly received the rejection
5. the road was previously no entry or exit with giant planters covering it (see link below)
6. as point 5 that means they definitely had to update the road removing the planters and adding signage
7. I visited today and the signage is there now but definitely was not on both sides of the road. I can see back of something on a lamp post one side of the councils footage but nothing on the other so impossible for there to have been any sign on one side
8. I have taken videos today. If you approach Sutherland road from one of the main roads there is no signage warning you that you are coming up to a restricted road (it's only visible from entrances further back on Sutherland road). Even if you do hit the two signs which are there now there was roadworks on the day I went passed (visible in the evidence council provided) and most of the roads if I reversed are no entry but tbh not sure if that counts as I could have reversed and gone straight up in opposite direction)
This means they would according to them have been chasing two people for the same ticket.
Link to notice of rejection sent to garage https://imgur.com/a/PwZANk0
Link to no entry that was previously on the road https://imgur.com/a/xHYXmA0
-
Thank you. I was having a lot of trouble uploading. There is a back page but it's literally just how to make payment online
-
Here is first page of CC - any more pages?
(https://i.imgur.com/NtYv6SQ.jpeg)
-
Have reuploaded here as it didn't look clear
-
Thanks. Have uploaded here https://imgur.com/a/gH43A6K
-
On the one hand it seems as if you are only the driver, but then again you say you have received a Charge Certificate addressed to you.
As you cannot challenge a CC, your next actions IMO should be to contact the council and request a copy of the PCN and to post a copy of the CC here - pl read the forum's instructions on how to post docs.
-
Thanks, have answered below:
We don't need to go into the details of the contravention at present, this is purely procedural.
Can we be clear about who's who and the sequence of events pl.
You have received a Charge Certificate addressed to you;Correct
This relates to the VRM of a vehicle which at the time, 6 Feb., you were driving under a hire agreement between you and ***; My insurer sent the car via the garage of their preferred choice it was all done through them
Do you still have a copy of this agreement, or were you in fact just the driver of a vehicle hired to your insurance company; The driver of a vehicle hired to my insurance company
What other correspondence do you have on this matter either addressed to you or given to you by another party which is the addressee? None All I have is a charge certificate
There is nothing to be done with the CC as regards procedure, now's the time for fact finding.
-
No, I have not moved house. I didn't receive the pcn and have lived in the same place for years
Did you have to show your driving licence when taking the hire? And is the address correct on that?
I've only lived in one place my entire life, the address is correct on my drivers license.
-
We don't need to go into the details of the contravention at present, this is purely procedural.
Can we be clear about who's who and the sequence of events pl.
You have received a Charge Certificate addressed to you;
This relates to the VRM of a vehicle which at the time, 6 Feb., you were driving under a hire agreement between you and ***;
Do you still have a copy of this agreement, or were you in fact just the driver of a vehicle hired to your insurance company;
What other correspondence do you have on this matter either addressed to you or given to you by another party which is the addressee?
There is nothing to be done with the CC as regards procedure, now's the time for fact finding.
-
No, I have not moved house. I didn't receive the pcn and have lived in the same place for years
Did you have to show your driving licence when taking the hire? And is the address correct on that?
-
I'll check signage tomorrow
-
No, I have not moved house. I didn't receive the pcn and have lived in the same place for years
-
Every time I try to post a pic it says: The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator.
You need to use a hosting site. Read this: -
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
Anyway, back to your case.....
Have you moved address since the accident ?
PCN would have gone to the V5 holder for the car. They would then have submitted reps on the basis of being a hire company, and would have supplied the name and address of the hirer.
-
Every time I try to post a pic it says: The upload folder is full. Please try a smaller file and/or contact an administrator.
-
Hi all
Please help with any advice. A bit of a long story.
Today I received a charge certificate for £195. I never received any pcn before this. Date of contravention is 06/02/24 and notice to owner/pcn is identified as as 18/04/24.
Now for backstory:
I was in a serious car accident in December and garage via insurer provided a replacement vehicle from December - February. I definitely did not receive a pcn. I open every single letter, even junk, and have been through any remaining papers. I have reached out to the garage but no response yet as this has happened today. Is it likely Croydon Council found owner via DVLA, issued pcn to the garage and then charge certificate to me? Would the dvla have me down on a replacement vehicle? I suspect they would not have and that's why I did not receive original pcn.
Furthermore, pcn is for 52j failure to comply with a prohibition on certain types of roads. I've just checked footage and doesn't look like I've even done this -although I will go back to road tomorrow as it is late now. Basically, road is restricted but signage is facing outwards instead of direction of travel -so appears as no entry for vehicles when I am exiting the road. There is also roadworks closing the opposite side of road but as they don't have a view from my direction of travel neither of us have any proof of signage in my direction.
I have tried to upload an attachment but keep getting an error message.
Charge certificate has no appeal details as I have missed deadline, according to them. Anyone know best grounds for appeal or how to proceed. They definitely didn't send me a pcn but hard to prove I didn't receive it. Do I wait for next correspondence and complete a witness statement?
Thank you