Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Mondeoman on June 22, 2024, 07:54:15 am

Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on January 11, 2025, 07:24:43 pm
Thank you, I hope it works out okay for you.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Loub1 on January 08, 2025, 03:41:43 pm
Thank you so much for sharing this advice.  I have received a PCN for the exact same offence in the same place.  I have just submitted my appeal using the same wording you have shared, and received an acknowledgement. Will let you know the outcome - thanks again!
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on July 07, 2024, 06:38:14 pm
Success with the appeal. Thank you for the excellent advice I received. I notice on their reply they do not admit to any issues that were submitted.

Traffic Management Act 2004
Penalty Charge Notice number: KU89669724
Vehicle registration: EA63BZX
Thank you for writing to us.
Although your PCN was correctly issued, we have cancelled it on this occasion. This case is now closed,
and you do not need to take any further action.
We sent you a PCN because our camera evidence shows your vehicle in a bus lane at a time when only
buses are allowed there.
Bus lanes have blue and white signs picturing a bus and showing the times when the lane is for buses only.
Signs on the approach and entrance to the bus gate give advance warning to drivers of the restriction,
which is in operation every day, from 9 am to 6 pm. Please visit tunbridgewells.gov.uk/bus-gate for
information on bus gate signing in Tunbridge Wells.
It is unfortunate that you were unfamiliar with the bus lane and the times it is in force. However, it is still up
to drivers to be aware of bus lane (and other) signs and obey them.
If you get another PCN in similar circumstances, we may not be able to cancel it.
Yours sincerely
John Strachan
Sent on behalf of John Strachan
Parking Manager
Tunbridge Wells Borough Council
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2024, 10:16:07 pm
Good spot of the missing video info !! This surely makes all their bus lane PCNs void.
Yes.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on July 03, 2024, 10:25:16 am
Thank you everyone.

I have entered my appeal, Tunbridge wells council say in an automated reply it could take up to 5 weeks to get a decision.

I will post the outcome as soon as I get it.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: slapdash on July 02, 2024, 07:27:34 pm
.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: roythebus on July 02, 2024, 06:44:16 pm
The photos of the restriction signs are almost illegible. It seems none of the photos actually show the car in the buses only lane.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Incandescent on July 02, 2024, 09:57:30 am
Good spot of the missing video info !! This surely makes all their bus lane PCNs void.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on July 02, 2024, 07:15:06 am
Thank you so much for taking the trouble to give such detailed advice.
Very helpful, I shall enter it in my appeal today.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2024, 12:03:02 am
Here you go:

Dear Tunbridge Wells Borough Council,

In the first instance I contend that the alleged contravention did not occur owing to the signage being inadequate and misleading, as has been widely reported in the press.

I further challenge liability on the basis of a procedural impropriety. Regulation 3 of The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022 provides that:


(2) An enforcement notice must include the following information—
...
(g) where the enforcement notice is a regulation 10 penalty charge notice served under regulation 10(2)(a) of the 2022 General Regulations (an “approved device notice”), the effect of paragraphs (3) and (4).

(3) The recipient (“R”) of an approved device notice may, by notice in writing, request that the enforcement authority—

(a) makes available, at one of its offices specified by R, free of charge and at a time during normal office hours so specified, for viewing by R or R’s representative the record of the alleged relevant road traffic contravention produced by the approved device pursuant to which the penalty charge was imposed, or
(b) provides R, free of charge, with such still images from that record as, in the authority’s opinion, establish the alleged relevant road traffic contravention.


(4) The enforcement authority must comply with any request under paragraph (3) within a reasonable time.

There is no CCTV footage on the council website and the information specified at paragraphs (3) and (4) of regulation 3 above has been omitted from the penalty charge notice. A failure to substantively convey the mandatory information required by the regulations is a failure by the enforcement authority to comply with an obligation imposed on it by the regulations, which by definition amounts to a procedural impropriety.

It follows that there has been a procedural impropriety and the PCN must be cancelled in any event.

Yours faithfully,


Send this online and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. To preserve formatting and indentation you'll probably have to pop the text into a PDF file and upload the representation to the council website as an attachment, and in the text box on the website just write "see attached representation". Do not whatever you do trim down the representation due to any sort of character limit on the council website.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on July 01, 2024, 03:07:03 pm
Yes that's correct.

Apparently many drivers have complained about the signage on this bus lane, you only have to google  "Tunbridge Wells Mount Pleasant Bus Lane" to see how many drivers were caught out.

Back in 2022 the Council sent out 18,000 warning letters issued to drivers contravening the restrictions, but the signs remain as misleading as ever.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Incandescent on July 01, 2024, 12:23:49 pm
So they re-offer the discount for 14 days, provided reps are received within the 21-day discount period.
Hmm.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: John U.K. on July 01, 2024, 11:34:32 am
For convenience:

(https://i.imgur.com/ULVTUMX.jpeg)


(https://i.imgur.com/lrxjBrB.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/KWhm5NU.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1aXuVAP.jpeg)


Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on July 01, 2024, 10:25:55 am




     https://imgur.com/a/3fMmtxF
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on July 01, 2024, 10:24:40 am


https://imgur.com/a/3fMmtxF


Please see the full pcn pges.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on July 01, 2024, 09:22:52 am
Thank you for your reply.

I Have been trying to attach the 4 pages of the pcn but am having problems. But I will be able to do this later today.

I have been Googled "Tunbridge Wells Mount Pleasant Road Bus Lane"  and lots of articles and complaints about it come up about this bus lane and the confusing signage.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 11:10:36 pm
@Mondeoman well there is no video on the council website, which is odd for a bus lane case. The only evidence is the following photos:

(https://i.imgur.com/avOCcrx.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/krhFGs5.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/1WhsDwl.jpeg)

Please can you post up all sides of all pages of the PCN? I need to check the statutory wording.

You deadline to make representations within the discount period is probably midnight on Tuesday, but we don't have enough data to say if the discount runs up to 21 days from service, 21 days from issue, or even 14 days from issue. It's entirely possible that when the legislation changed the period from 14 to 21 days, the computer code that drives the discount wasn't updated, we simply don't know.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on June 30, 2024, 09:24:25 pm
Thank you for your reply.

I was about to submit an appeal based on postings on this forum as the 21 days + 2 days discount period is almost up, but any further advice would be very much appreciated.

As requested.
Vehicle Reg   EA63BZX
PCN  KU89669724
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 04:25:21 pm
Is the fact that the PCN has an error on it, that they have stated the car colour as black not blue a reason to get it cancelled ?
No but if you give us what we've asked for we might find something that is a reason to get it cancelled.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on June 29, 2024, 09:04:33 am
Thank you
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: John U.K. on June 29, 2024, 08:38:08 am
Is the fact that the PCN has an error on it, that they have stated the car colour as black not blue a reason to get it cancelled ?

Car colour not mandatory requirement.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on June 29, 2024, 07:50:30 am
Is the fact that the PCN has an error on it, that they have stated the car colour as black not blue a reason to get it cancelled ?
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: cp8759 on June 26, 2024, 06:12:27 pm
@Mondeoman as per the guidance at https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/ please give us the PCN number and the number plate.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on June 23, 2024, 05:07:20 pm
Thank you for your very helpful reply, being on holiday I don't have access to a large monitor screen to look at the street view, but when traveling at 20 mph these signs are easily misunderstood.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Incandescent on June 23, 2024, 09:56:41 am
6 Monson Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YRZEWVKbPctjjpcf9?g_st=ac

There is this warning sign. It is, however, a bit confusing. It doesn't reflect the actual road layout.

The bus lane is round to the left (but you can't go straight on, it's a no entry side street).

The council are hugely unlikely to accept inadequate signage. There is some chance an adjudicator might, with the full penalty payable if they don't.
And also this sign, further back, so two advance warning signs. Frankly, this would make an appeal much more difficult. However there is the absolute right in law to take the matter to adjudication.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/rX18EzED4i14b3dq6
However, the real point is that once the restriction signs are reached, there is no alternative, so why not have the bus lane restriction start just past the first warning sign where there is at least a left turn option.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: slapdash on June 23, 2024, 08:28:12 am
6 Monson Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YRZEWVKbPctjjpcf9?g_st=ac

There is this warning sign. It is, however, a bit confusing. It doesn't reflect the actual road layout.

The bus lane is round to the left (but you can't go straight on, it's a no entry side street).

The council are hugely unlikely to accept inadequate signage. There is some chance an adjudicator might, with the full penalty payable if they don't.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Incandescent on June 22, 2024, 09:58:37 pm
Can you please post-up a GSV link to the exact location, and tell us which road you turned out of. Inadequate signage can win at adjudication.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on June 22, 2024, 06:19:59 pm
Thank you for your reply.I was turning into this road so I didn't notice them to slow down to read them.For the first few weeks of operation the council sent out warning letters to drivers who were caught in this road. Better signage would help.
Title: Re: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Incandescent on June 22, 2024, 11:55:25 am
Unfortunately these signs are now in very common use to indicate a "Bus Gate", and are enforceable as Bus Lane offences. The signs are very clear in the photo. 

In the 50s when ships were equipped with radar, there was an expression "a radar-assisted collision" where two ships saw each other on the radar, but seemingly ignored what they were seeing.  It looks like we have a new phenomenon of "Sat-nav assisted PCN" as we see so many threads where this is a theme.

Did you not understand what the signs meant, or just didn't notice them ?  Whilst you can submit reps, you need a credible theme, and I don't see one at the moment. Hopefully, others may do so, so wait a bit before paying.
Title: Being in a bus lane during hours of operation.
Post by: Mondeoman on June 22, 2024, 07:54:15 am
On my way to Eastbourne my satellite navigation took me through Tunbridge Wells. Not knowing the area, I was unaware that I had passed through a bus lane/road that looked like a normal road. I did not notice the two blue signs giving details of times of operation at the entrance of this bus lane/road that look like parking restriction signs. There was not the usual red tarmac road surface and big signage to indicate it's a bus lane.

When I go to "view the evidence", the pictures do not show clearly, so that you can read them, the 2 signs at the entrance of the bus lane or anything else to show it's a bus lane.

The PCN details are incorrect, it states the colour of my car is BLACK but it is BLUE and registered as BLUE.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

https://imgur.com/a/vEYcQgc