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Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: tawnyess on June 22, 2024, 07:45:12 am

Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: DWMB2 on July 23, 2024, 07:45:30 pm
Hence why I asked if you had chased.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: tawnyess on July 23, 2024, 07:40:45 pm
 I would have thought I would have recieved a rejection letter of some sort before any other claim letters.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: b789 on July 23, 2024, 04:06:34 pm
It's possible that it was cancelled. Who knows? Don't worry about anything unless you receive a Letter of Claim (LoC) or an N1SDT claim form from the CNBC. Anything else regarding this can be safely ignored.

Also, there is a new "short" defence that is much more likely to have any claim either discontinued at a much earlier stage or struck out. This short defence has been drafted up on advice from a long serving district judge which will fit on a single side of A4 and also includes a draft order which no claimant has manage to fully comply with to date.

The judges mantra regarding roboclaimers:

What the defendants should strive to achieve is to make life:
As easy as possible for the Judge
And as difficult as possible for the claimant
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: DWMB2 on July 23, 2024, 02:54:41 pm
Have you chased them? If not, do so.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: tawnyess on July 23, 2024, 02:52:35 pm
Just an update on this, I have sent an "appeal" with above, been just about a month with no response to it. When I try to view the pcn it has removed the option to pay for it.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: tawnyess on June 23, 2024, 03:45:09 pm
I think you are both right, I think sending them a message with the example above will show them I won't go quietly which could lead them throwing it put. Worst comes both routes could end the same in court.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: DWMB2 on June 23, 2024, 10:12:00 am
In the interests of clarity, as mine and b789's views aren't greatly different on the matter: my main reason for suggesting you appeal is to put them on notice that you're doing your research and/or seeking advice from one of the parking forums. As I've already suggested a template to use, which you could use to appeal as the keeper only, so the effort involved is almost zero, with essentially no risk. There's a small chance they'll put you in the 'too much effort' pile and you'll avoid having to rock up to court. If they don't, then as we've both said, you've got a number of avenues of defence.

(Having had a roam around on Google Maps, the location seems familiar, it must have cropped up on the now dead PePiPoo at some point)
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: b789 on June 23, 2024, 12:22:28 am
I’m familiar with that thread. I even posted on it. What matters that this is likely to go all the way. You have a very good defence, preferably as the known keeper because only the unknown driver can be liable. You also have all the other points about poor signage, no contract because of the stopping prohibition and therefore no consideration time and so on.

Don’t fret it. Ignore all debt collector letters you’re going to receive. Wait for a letter of claim and then come back. Or go through the sham appeals if you think it’ll make a difference. It’s your time and energy.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: tawnyess on June 22, 2024, 11:50:26 pm
Quote from: b789 on June 22, 2024, 11:27:40 pm
I've dealt with similar complaints at this location previously. There is a local who hides and then pops up to snap a photo to get their reward. The location is definitely land under statutory control. Therefore PoFA does not apply and liability cannot be transferred from the unknown driver to the known keeper as long as the keeper doesn't blab it.

That is why the NtK is not relying on PoFA. Only the driver is liable. They have no idea who the driver is unless you tell them.

Whilst you have been advised to appeal, I will place money on it that you get nowhere with either the Plan B or Plan C appeals with PCM or the IAS. Go ahead and fill your boots. Whatever you do, you will end up beating this at Plan D stage...county court. Hence my suggestion to save yourself time and effort and simply wait for the claim form.

Thanks, did you get a chance to read the post from mse I attached earlier?

What is your take on that and how it could be used for my case.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: b789 on June 22, 2024, 11:27:40 pm
I've dealt with similar complaints at this location previously. There is a local who hides and then pops up to snap a photo to get their reward. The location is definitely land under statutory control. Therefore PoFA does not apply and liability cannot be transferred from the unknown driver to the known keeper as long as the keeper doesn't blab it.

That is why the NtK is not relying on PoFA. Only the driver is liable. They have no idea who the driver is unless you tell them.

Whilst you have been advised to appeal, I will place money on it that you get nowhere with either the Plan B or Plan C appeals with PCM or the IAS. Go ahead and fill your boots. Whatever you do, you will end up beating this at Plan D stage...county court. Hence my suggestion to save yourself time and effort and simply wait for the claim form.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: DWMB2 on June 22, 2024, 11:06:39 pm
The byelaws point is interesting - I wasn't immediately aware it was railway land. I'll take a proper look tomorrow.

In the meantime, the fact the OP in that case won hopefully shoes that there are strong grounds on which to defend this. The points I mentioned above, the ones in that MSE thread, and any others combined, should provide a sound defence.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: tawnyess on June 22, 2024, 10:56:17 pm
Quote from: DWMB2 on June 22, 2024, 08:39:38 pm
My mistake. In which case, here's a suggestion. I am assuming here that PCM did not send you any additional documents with the notice? If they did let us know as the approach will be different.

The draft doesn't raise any of the other issues I mentioned about the actual 'parking' event. They won't be interested so save those for court if it goes that far. The main purpose of the initial appeal is just to show you're not an easy target, and that you're getting advice.

Dear sirs,

I have received you Notice to Hirer [(PCN number)] for Vehicle Registration Mark [VRM]. I am appealing in my capacity as the vehicle hirer, having been nominated as such by [HIRE FIRM]. There is no obligation for me to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I note that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the hirer, using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“the Act”).

As a result of this, you are unable to recover the specified charge from me, the hirer. As I do not
have liability for this charge, I am unable to help you further with this matter. I therefore look
forward to your confirmation that no further action will be taken against me regarding this charge. If you do take further action, this will be rigorously defended.

Yours,

After hours of research I've found this post on another forum regarding the same location. It seems they have been taken to court and the OP won.

What is your take on this?

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/5869044/pcn-at-high-point-village-hayes/p5
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: DWMB2 on June 22, 2024, 08:39:38 pm
My mistake. In which case, here's a suggestion. I am assuming here that PCM did not send you any additional documents with the notice? If they did let us know as the approach will be different.

The draft doesn't raise any of the other issues I mentioned about the actual 'parking' event. They won't be interested so save those for court if it goes that far. The main purpose of the initial appeal is just to show you're not an easy target, and that you're getting advice.

Dear sirs,

I have received you Notice to Hirer [(PCN number)] for Vehicle Registration Mark [VRM]. I am appealing in my capacity as the vehicle hirer, having been nominated as such by [HIRE FIRM]. There is no obligation for me to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I note that you are not seeking to hold me liable as the hirer, using the provisions of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“the Act”).

As a result of this, you are unable to recover the specified charge from me, the hirer. As I do not
have liability for this charge, I am unable to help you further with this matter. I therefore look
forward to your confirmation that no further action will be taken against me regarding this charge. If you do take further action, this will be rigorously defended.

Yours,
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: tawnyess on June 22, 2024, 07:54:57 pm
Quote from: DWMB2 on June 22, 2024, 02:27:37 pm
Whilst I understand b789's sentiment, I disagree with his approach. PCM are a fairly litigious bunch, and are relatively likely to take the matter to court. That doesn't mean you shouldn't defend yourself, but in my view, there's always value in an appeal. If nothing else, it shows the court you've taken reasonable steps to dispute the matter before the courts involvement in the matter.

If you come back once you receive a charge in your own name, I can draft an appeal up for you if you wish.

The letter I attached is in my name as the leasing company has already forwarded my details after they recieved the initial letter. A sample draft would be great and much appreciated.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: DWMB2 on June 22, 2024, 02:27:37 pm
Whilst I understand b789's sentiment, I disagree with his approach. PCM are a fairly litigious bunch, and are relatively likely to take the matter to court. That doesn't mean you shouldn't defend yourself, but in my view, there's always value in an appeal. If nothing else, it shows the court you've taken reasonable steps to dispute the matter before the courts involvement in the matter.

If you come back once you receive a charge in your own name, I can draft an appeal up for you if you wish.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: b789 on June 22, 2024, 01:53:40 pm
The notice is not PoFA compliant. Whether it is a NtK or an NtH, only the unknown driver could be liable. You, the known hirer of the vehicle must not identify the unknown driver.

Besides the fact that no contract can have been entered into between the unknown driver and the PPC, what do you think you have received? It is simply a speculative invoice for an alleged breach of (no) contract from an unregulated private parking company.

It is from a firm of ex-clamper thugs who are hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will at some stage capitulate and pay into their scam. Appealing it is unlikely to result in success, either initially or at IAS stage.

If you have come here for advice, then you are not gullible. Others will advise you on what to put in an appeal and IAS appeal. I would suggest you simply ignore it and any subsequent debt collector letters. They know that if the driver remains unknown there is nothing they can do and even then, if the drivers identity was revealed, unintentionally or otherwise, they would not dare take it all the way to a judge.

Get on with your life and simply ignore all correspondence from the scammers. If you ever receive a county court claim in the next 6 years, come back for advice. A county court claim would be to your advantage as the only independent arbiter in a scam like this is a judge. They know it and would only file a claim as part of their extortion attempt to get you to pay up. They’d be confirming their intellectual malnourishment if they ever took it all the way to a hearing.

The only thing to remember is if you change address in the next 6 years is to rectify your address for service with their DPO and tell them to erase your old address.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: tawnyess on June 22, 2024, 12:56:17 pm
Quote from: DWMB2 on June 22, 2024, 10:34:32 am
There are a few arguments you can run here - firstly, there is no consideration offered by that sign (it doesn't offer you the opportunity to park on certain terms, all it does is forbid) - on that basis, no contract can be formed, and without a contract, no money is owed.

Secondly, if the vehicle was only stopped for a few seconds, there's a fair argument to be made that the driver was not presented with a suitable opportunity to read the terms and conditions on the sign. A driver must be given the opportunity to acquaint himself with the terms and conditions on offer before he can be bound by them... Even if the signage could form a contract (which you will deny), the driver was not given sufficient time to consider the signage.

Another point to raise: what is your relationship to the vehicle? The wording of the notice suggests you are not the registered keeper, is this a financed/leased vehicle?

Thank you for your response.

There are multiple signs posted everywhere on that road as you enter. My intention was to enter, look for a bay and park. As no bay was available and the passenger opening the door to enter, it caused me to stop for a few seconds.

And yes the vehicle is a lease from a cab leasing company. I was already made aware of the pcn by them but waited to post here until I recieved the notice in my name.

What are strongest point I could mention in my appeal. I have never recieved a private parking charger before so I'm not aware of the appeal, rejection and further appeal process.
Title: Re: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: DWMB2 on June 22, 2024, 10:34:32 am
There are a few arguments you can run here - firstly, there is no consideration offered by that sign (it doesn't offer you the opportunity to park on certain terms, all it does is forbid) - on that basis, no contract can be formed, and without a contract, no money is owed.

Secondly, if the vehicle was only stopped for a few seconds, there's a fair argument to be made that the driver was not presented with a suitable opportunity to read the terms and conditions on the sign. A driver must be given the opportunity to acquaint himself with the terms and conditions on offer before he can be bound by them... Even if the signage could form a contract (which you will deny), the driver was not given sufficient time to consider the signage.

Another point to raise: what is your relationship to the vehicle? The wording of the notice suggests you are not the registered keeper, is this a financed/leased vehicle?
Title: Parking Charge Notice - High Point Village (Hayes UB3) "Parked within a restricted area"
Post by: tawnyess on June 22, 2024, 07:45:12 am
Hi, I am a cab driver who had a pickup on this road at the date and time of the attached notice. I entered the area and tried to find a bay on the right side of the road, but as you can see in the pictures, all bays were full. At the same time, my passenger had already opened the rear door to enter. This all happened within 5-10 seconds. As I could not find any parking bays and the passenger had already entered, I drove off. I have booking details to prove I was there for that specific reason.

Now, I had a thought that if all it takes is 5 seconds to stop on this road to receive a parking notice, isn't it possible for someone within the premises or the parking company to book cabs all day and dish out parking charges?

Anyway, I have seen the sign, which I have also attached, but the lack of free parking bays and the passenger forcefully entering the vehicle caused me to be stationary for a very short period of time.

Any help with this would be highly appreciated.

https://postimg.cc/ZWnq6Zzg

https://postimg.cc/Pv13qN4w