Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Fiat500PCN on June 21, 2024, 11:38:56 pm

Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council PCN 83 West Park Car Park Harrogate HIRE CAR
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 01:41:34 pm
Do you want a 100% chance of losing £25, or a 10% chance of losing £20 and a 90% chance of losing £70?
How exactly have you got to 90%?

The starting point is that if liability is transferred and the NTO is challenged within 14 days, the 50% discount is usually reoffered.

Secondly, non-London councils have form for failing to provide a true copy of the PCN to the tribunal, as per Vanessa Price v Nottingham City Council (NG00044-2201, 7 March 2022) (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YAg82YBKfVyHTSQmdOI229Yt5QccDKFt/view).

We also don't know if the council will even follow the correct procedure for transferring liability, for instance they might fail to send a notice of acceptance to the hire company.

At best we can say that the outcome at the tribunal is uncertain at this stage, we certainly don't have enough information to say there's a 90% chance of the appeal being lost.

Also, many hire companies will refund the admin fee if the penalty is overturned.
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council PCN 83 West Park Car Park Harrogate HIRE CAR
Post by: H C Andersen on June 27, 2024, 07:19:38 pm
If it was me, I would probably just pay this one since it’s only £25. If you don’t, the penalty will double to £50,

No it won't...yet!

Unsuccessful reps, I've suggested a draft should be submitted because nothing's in jeopardy provided these are submitted within the 14-day period i.e. no later than 4 July, but why wait?

Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council PCN 83 West Park Car Park Harrogate HIRE CAR
Post by: lexy on June 27, 2024, 06:55:53 pm
The fact it’s a hire car changes things, as you’ve already found out.

If it was me, I would probably just pay this one since it’s only £25. If you don’t, the penalty will double to £50, the hire company will find out, and they’ll charge an admin fee, which is usually about £20.

They’ll also do one of two things: either pay the penalty and charge your credit card (which leaves you with no way to appeal) or supply your details to the council, who will issue a new penalty to you that you can pay or appeal.

Do you want a 100% chance of losing £25, or a 10% chance of losing £20 and a 90% chance of losing £70?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council PCN 83 West Park Car Park Harrogate HIRE CAR
Post by: cp8759 on June 23, 2024, 05:30:00 pm
The T&Cs state that if they receive a PCN "that is capable of being paid" from a public or private enforcement agceny they will pay it and then charge the person hiring the car the fine + their third party admin charge.
Such a term is unlawful because the Consumer Rights Act 2015 prohibits unfair terms, and paragraph 20 of Schedule 2 (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/schedule/2/paragraph/20) provides this example of a term that a court may deem unfair:

A term which has the object or effect of excluding or hindering the consumer's right to take legal action or exercise any other legal remedy, in particular by—

(a) requiring the consumer to take disputes exclusively to arbitration not covered by legal provisions,

(b) unduly restricting the evidence available to the consumer, or

(c) imposing on the consumer a burden of proof which, according to the applicable law, should lie with another party to the contract.


As paying the penalty has the effect of excluding your right to exercise a legal remedy (i.e. appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal), the term is invalid.

However the first thing you want to do is contact whoever provided the car to you, and ask them to contact the hire company and tell them (the hire company) that you what to contest the notice to owner and that you will lose the ability to do so if they pay, and ask them not to pay and instead make representations to the council on the ground that the vehicle was on hire, and asking the council to reissue the notice to owner directly to the hirer.

If you signed the hire agreement with the hire company, you can contact the hire company directly.

Unless and until you can get the hire company to agree to this, really nothing else matters.

Of course if you just want to pay, you can go onto the council website and pay right now and that will be the end of the matter.
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council PCN 83 West Park Car Park Harrogate HIRE CAR
Post by: H C Andersen on June 22, 2024, 04:12:47 pm
Can I contact the council and pay the PCN and request they don't pass it on to the hire company?

If the penalty is paid, then this ends the process i.e. until 4 July the penalty is £25 and may be paid by anyone! No-one else comes into equation.

Similarly, if unsuccessful reps are made before 4 July the discount would be re-offered to you for 14 days.

Make informal reps IMO.

I normally drive VRM **** for which I hold a monthly permit;
On this occasion I was driving a hired vehicle, mine was in the garage, and in the rush of getting a hire car in short order I forgot to transfer my permit/forgot that I wasn't driving my own vehicle(to be refined and fleshed out) and the CEO rightly issued a PCN;
This is my first PCN - if true...
Please exercise discretion on this occasion.

While you're pondering what to do, IMO we need to be clear about who is the hirer of the hire vehicle.

The car was hired with Europcar via Rentcar. ??


I think there's a chance that you are not the hirer but simply the driver and that anything you've signed applies to your relationship with whoever actually signed the hire agreement. 
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council PCN 83 West Park Car Park Harrogate HIRE CAR
Post by: Fiat500PCN on June 22, 2024, 03:33:49 pm
The T&Cs state that if they receive a PCN "that is capable of being paid" from a public or private enforcement agceny they will pay it and then charge the person hiring the car the fine + their third party admin charge.

Does the "capable of being paid" imply that if it is already paid they won't take any further action.

Can I contact the council and pay the PCN and request they don't pass it on to the hire company?
Title: Re: North Yorkshire Council PCN 83 West Park Car Park Harrogate HIRE CAR
Post by: Incandescent on June 22, 2024, 12:15:50 am
The main point to make is that whilst you can submit an informal challenge to the council, if they refuse those reps, and you then don't pay the PCN, they will serve a Notice to Owner on the owner of the hire car.  This is because the legislation for decriminalised parking enforcement makes the vehicle owner responsible for all PCNs.

So I suggest you study the terms of your hire to see what the hire company will do when they receive PCNs (postal), or NtOs. YOu may then need to contact the hire company.
Title: North Yorkshire Council PCN 83 West Park Car Park Harrogate HIRE CAR
Post by: Fiat500PCN on June 21, 2024, 11:38:56 pm
Hi,

I was using a hire car while mine is getting fixed. I park in a council car park (West Park Car Park Harrogate) for work for which I have a monthly ticket. I parked up as usual and was an autopilot and didn't think to get a ticket. I came back to a PCN 83 for not displaying a ticket.

My question is how do I deal with this as it is a hire car? I had to return the car tonight so I didn't have time to do anything prior (literally got the ticket and had to return the car straight away).

The car was hired with Europcar via Rentcar. T&Cs state that the person hiring the car is responsible for paying parking tickets and that they should be informed.


Ticket received today (21st June 2024)

Link to PCN front (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rioaXbg0DIYtQ0gBxe8H5VxTrKjHc4IU/view?usp=drivesdk)

Link to PCN back (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rTQQmiLUkBdLRKbHFJ7KEOj5_swfMQyf/view?usp=drivesdk)

Thank you!