Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Greengiant96 on June 18, 2024, 11:52:40 pm

Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: mickR on August 06, 2024, 07:35:02 pm
well done again CP.
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: cp8759 on August 06, 2024, 06:12:37 pm
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BYqIbMhLcChBigl-ts9GLceG2VabLyfA/view).
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: cp8759 on June 20, 2024, 12:34:17 am
@Greengiant96 please see my PM (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=pm) and let me know how you'd like to proceed.

The discount is still available and if you get the case listed by the tribunal before the discount expires, TFL will only demand the discounted penalty even if you lose.
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: Greengiant96 on June 19, 2024, 11:58:39 pm
CP8759 - sorry, our messages crossed - noted re personal hearing, and please find attached last page of rejection letter https://imgur.com/a/LV77Dnb
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: Greengiant96 on June 19, 2024, 11:52:45 pm
I'm getting a little short on time to make my appeal as I was waiting to hear from the National Highways. John UK suggested requesting an 'in person' or telephone hearing, in person would end up costing me nearly as much as the fine, by the time I've travelled from SE Kent to London, and there appears to be no option for a telephone hearing that I can see.
Below is the first draft of the written appeal - is this adequate? I would of course attach copies of all the relevant documents.

Penalty Charge Notice:- XJ26416867.
I am making this appeal on the grounds that no charge should be payable as the incident happened on an official diversion caused by closure of the M26 J2A and M25 motorway between junctions 5 and 6 on the night of 28th April.
• My representation was rejected by TfL primarily because “they could find no diversions into the ULEZ for the day in question”. I had not expected to have to provide proof of the road closure, especially something as major as the main London Orbital, so had not attempted to show evidence for this. I was amazed that they said that they could find no evidence for a diversion; I’d wrongly assumed TfL and National Highways would work together on this. I therefore needed supportive evidence so I did a Google search and found notification of the road closure overnight on 28th April and a map of the diversion on this site-
• https://favershamtowncouncil.gov.uk/national-highways-national-emergency-area-retrofit-programme-south-east/
• M25 junction 5 to 6 – the M25 junction 5 to 6 clockwise including all relevant slip, linking roads and M26 southbound to M25 junction 5 will be closed overnight on Sunday 28 April 2024.
Diversion: M25 junction 5 to 6 clockwise
I knew I had entered the ULEZ area and was concerned about being charged, but from TfLs website
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0311-2324
They say “we implement an extensive signage strategy to ensure that all motorists are aware of the diversion and the route to follow. All ULEZ cameras along the diversion route are switched off. As long as the vehicle being diverted follows the diversion route a PCN will not be issued.”

Another website quoted National Highways senior project manager Jonathan Wade "Although the (Ulez) cameras will be active, no enforcement action will be taken.” https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/24304072.m25-closure-ulez-fee-non-compliant-drivers-ignore-diversions/
As I had followed the diversion route as signposted I thought no more about it - until on returning from my holiday I received the PCN, which was for £90 as I had not paid the charge on time – which I didn’t need to pay as it was on an official diversion!
TfL say in their refusal of my representation letter that I could have purchased the charge up to 64 days prior to travel, completely missing the point that I had no intention or need to enter the ULEZ but was forced to do so by the road closures and diversion.[I was travelling from SE Kent to Gatwick Airport which were it not for the road closure would have been all on motorway and certainly would not have required purchase of a ULEZ charge.]
I have been waiting for National Highways to confirm in writing the road closure for the night of Sunday 28th April and to show the authorised diversion which I have now received, please see attached.
The diversion route indicated on the map essentially follows the A21, Farnborough Way being part of that route, which is where the camera recorded my vehicle.


Please let me know if I need more/less info for the appeal, or different wording.
thanks everyone for your time, it is truly appreciated.
Nick
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: cp8759 on June 19, 2024, 11:46:04 pm
@Greengiant96 the one thing you do not want to do is post anything anywhere: if the tribunal form is lost in the post this will turn into a real nightmare to sort out.

Instead, it's far better to simply fill the form it, scan it, and then email it to queries@londontribunals.org.uk (and make sure to tick the two boxes requesting that all communication be sent to you by email, one in section 2 and one in section 7).

This way you get an instantaneous email acknowledgment.

I'm also minded to suggest that on the appeal form you simply write "I rely on my formal representations", there's no reason to show your hand to TFL before they prepare their case summary.

You have to tick the box for a "personal" hearing but once you get the scheduling letter, it's really simple to switch it to a telephone hearing.

By the way can you please post the last page of your notice of rejection?
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: John U.K. on June 19, 2024, 03:36:01 pm
Quote
My case was posted either on here or the old Pepipoo site in December 2023 or January 2024.

Must have been PPP, Roy. Your Index shows no posts here Mid-November- March 16th.
https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=22;area=showposts;start=75
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: roythebus on June 19, 2024, 03:11:48 pm
I'd tend to cut down your reps and make it plain and simple.


I had a similar case in December last year, Potters Bar to the M20, a route I do a couple of times a week. Signs for diversion, M25 closed from the M11 junction. The previous week it was similarly closed with the official diversion via Harlow and Chelmsford back to the M25. This evening a diversion sign on the M25-M11 slip point towards London, the only exit there was at the end of the M11 onto the A12, straight into the ULEZ. No further diversion signs. I carried on the A406 then onto the A13 to Dartford Crossing. Got the PCN a week or so later, challenged it on inadequate signage. I'd already contacted National highways and told that the diversion was well signed and that cameras on that route would be switched off. TfL told me the same, but refused my appeal initially. A few weeks later they relented.

There really is a lack of co-ordination between TfL and Highways or whatever they're called this week. It goes to show that neither side knows when cameras are on or off. The only reliable source of that info are the BladeRunners! My case was posted either on here or the old Pepipoo site in December 2023 o January 2024.
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: Greengiant96 on June 19, 2024, 02:47:39 pm
Have you a copy of your original reps? That will give us a start.
I have a draft version of the reps but not the absolute final version.
Reading it again now I feel embarrassed at it's [my] naivety, I was convinced that I'd just have to prove I was going to Gatwick and thought my car park booking and flight times would be sufficient, they'd realise I was only on that route because of the diversion and all would be well.
I would also say that after the point where I was informed that charges wouldn't apply, I put it out of my mind, enjoyed my 2 week holiday with family and didn't give it any more consideration until I received the PCN. By that time I had very little memory of the route we took (other than blindly following the diversion for miles) so it was conceivable that I had deviated from the route at some point (at one point I did turn off the route which at that point was an Urban Clearway so I could retrieve my road atlas from the boot - obviously I couldn't stop to do that on the clearway, but this was only a matter of a few yards before I turned around and rejoined the diversion. This I now know was miles beyond the ULEZ camera) Now with my wife trying to work out where we were and where the diversion might be leading us (at one point it wouldn't have surprised me to discover I was about to enter the Dartford Tunnel I felt so disorientated!) So the plea was also covering the possibility that I might have been briefly away from the diversion.
Only after my rep was turned down did I start investigating the route and following it on Google Street View. The ULEZ camera 'Farnborough Way' was at an early stage of the diversion and so my fears that I had strayed were unfounded. Finally I'd add that at 03:06 on a Monday morning I wasn't exactly able to follow a stream of traffic using the diversion, and bits of it were pretty unclear if you didn't know the roads - with a fallen down sign here and an ambiguous one somewhere else.
All that said here is my initial representation:-

I was travelling to Gatwick airport for a flight departure of 05:55 on Monday 29th April. It's not a journey I make often but pretty straight-forward from my home in Kent. Unfortunately I was unaware of the M25 closure and so had not anticipated any diversions. Once off my planned route I was solely reliant on the diversion signs and after a very short time had no idea where I was and at times no idea in which direction I was travelling, the darkness making it even more difficult. Expecting to see directions for Gatwick, which never seemed to appear, and it now having taken considerably longer than planned, we seemed to be driving AWAY from Gatwick towards Croydon. Once we'd located the name of somewhere we could find on the map, my wife was able to follow the route using a road atlas to get us to Gatwick. I couldn't say where we were but I was as lost as I think I've ever been and the time was running out to park and check in for our flight. I did see we had entered the ULEZ fairly early on in the diversion, but on speaking to a fellow traveller at the airport about the poorly signed diversions, he said that the ULEZ charges were waived on the diverted route. Also, I have a very basic pay-as-you-go mobile phone, so I had no means of checking, questioning or if necessary paying any charge as I was away until today (Wednesday 15th May) but I thought it would be highly unlikely that it would be fair to charge people when they were forced to take the diversion. So in summary, I had not planned to go anywhere near the ULEZ and only did so because I had to follow the diversions. If I strayed from the diversion route it was because, in my wife and I's opinion, we were not going to get to our destination, we felt we had already somehow missed any option to get to Gatwick. It was poorly signed and at no point did we see Gatwick mentioned. If you missed a turning or exit you were left to find your own way. I am certain I was not the only driver to have these problems. Attached are the Gatwick Parking and flight details.
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: John U.K. on June 19, 2024, 11:06:08 am
Have you a copy of your original reps? That will give us a start.
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: Greengiant96 on June 19, 2024, 10:11:47 am
Thanks John UK, I may opt for telephone hearing - frightened to drive anywhere near London now  >:(

Are there any sample appeals on here so I can get an idea of the best way to set it out and what to put as reason for appeal?
My initial thoughts contain too many expletives :-)
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: John U.K. on June 19, 2024, 09:46:29 am
Quote
TfL could find no information on the road being closed or diversion in place!!!

Even as far away as sunny Great Yarmouth we'd heard of the M25's overnight and weekend closures this year.
(Picked up from the media - don't TfL staff read the papers or watch TV news??  )

Perhaps the staff at TfL need lessons in using Google (other search engines are available).
Searching on m25 closures april 2024 produces

People also ask
Is the M25 closed in April 2024?
M25 junction 6 to 5 – the M25 junction 6 to 5 anti-clockwise including all relevant slip and linking roads will be closed overnight on Friday 26 and Saturday 27 April 2024.23 Apr 2024
National Highways National Emergency Area Retrofit ... (https://favershamtowncouncil.gov.uk/national-highways-national-emergency-area-retrofit-programme-south-east/)

which link leads to a letter from National Highways which includes

Quote
  M25 junction 5 to 6 – the M25 junction 5 to 6 clockwise including all relevant slip, linking roads and M26 southbound to M25 junction 5 will be closed overnight on Sunday 28 April 2024.
      Diversion: M25 junction 5 to 6 clockwise (https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1xjlApkqH_ORKr5fd6up_v6GJuXGv9mM&usp=sharing)


which last link is a map of the diversion. "Simples!!!"

I should point out in your appeal to the Tribunal not only the utility of Google, but also that Tfl (the key is in the T word) should be working closely with National Highways.


Please post a draft of your appeal here before submitting and opt for a telphone or personal hearing - decisions on papers often go badly.

Somehow, I think TfL may fold before the hearing date.
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: Incandescent on June 19, 2024, 09:03:47 am
Thanks Incandescent, I will write to the Tribunal, I'll give it a couple of days to see if there are any further replies. There were  2 sites I later found that said about the cameras, one is a ULEZ Q&A here https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0311-2324
"If we are made aware that a road will be closed and vehicles will be diverted into the ULEZ, we implement an extensive signage strategy to ensure that all motorists are aware of the diversion and the route to follow. All ULEZ cameras along the diversion route are switched off. As long as the vehicle being diverted follows the diversion route a PCN will not be issued."
The other was a quote from National Highways senior project manager here https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/24304072.m25-closure-ulez-fee-non-compliant-drivers-ignore-diversions/
"National Highways senior project manager Jonathan Wade said: "Although the (Ulez) cameras will be active, no enforcement action will be taken."
It's like putting a sign up saying Free Parking on Sundays then fining people for not paying the fee - seems a little cynical to me!!
Make sure this is included in your evidence.
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: Greengiant96 on June 19, 2024, 07:53:10 am
Thanks Incandescent, I will write to the Tribunal, I'll give it a couple of days to see if there are any further replies. There were  2 sites I later found that said about the cameras, one is a ULEZ Q&A here https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-0311-2324
"If we are made aware that a road will be closed and vehicles will be diverted into the ULEZ, we implement an extensive signage strategy to ensure that all motorists are aware of the diversion and the route to follow. All ULEZ cameras along the diversion route are switched off. As long as the vehicle being diverted follows the diversion route a PCN will not be issued."
The other was a quote from National Highways senior project manager here https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/24304072.m25-closure-ulez-fee-non-compliant-drivers-ignore-diversions/
"National Highways senior project manager Jonathan Wade said: "Although the (Ulez) cameras will be active, no enforcement action will be taken."
It's like putting a sign up saying Free Parking on Sundays then fining people for not paying the fee - seems a little cynical to me!!
Title: Re: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: Incandescent on June 19, 2024, 12:27:45 am
Your best approach now is to register an appeal with London Tribunals, as the penalty does not increase, and there are no additional costs.  Their letter just shows what a complete mess TfL are in with ULEZ, and frankly, I cannot see you losing this case, as you have copper-bottomed evidence from National Highways on the closure and the route of the diversion.
YoOu will need to present all the information you have gathered together plus the text of your original reps, and and overall statement of why you are appealing to LT. Hopefully, others on here who have done this before or assisted with a ULZ case will contribute. Don't miss the deadline to register an appeal at London Tribuals !

Just a question - on whose site did it say "ULEZ cameras turned off on the diversion route" ?

Title: ULEZ fine on official diversion Farnborough Road, Orpington
Post by: Greengiant96 on June 18, 2024, 11:52:40 pm
I was travelling overnight from SE Kent to Gatwick Airport (planned 'normal' route M20, M26, M25, M23).
At junction 2A of the M20/M26 slip road, the M26 was coned off and traffic diverted. The diversion signs said follow signs to M25. Once I'd left the planned route I was rather at a loss to know exactly where the diversion was going to take me as the signs simply said M25. I realised that it took me back onto the M20 and then to J3 on the M25. I thought this was to be the end of the diversion and I would continue my clockwise journey around to the M23. However there was still no access to the south western section of the M25, and the diversion continued for some considerable distance on what I later found out was the A21 [I did not at the time have any idea where I was other than following diversion signs to the M25]. I realised I had entered a ULEZ zone and was annoyed that I was being forced into the zone by a diversion I didn't want to make. I followed the route to South Croydon and then on to the M25 where I had to head anti clockwise to pick up the route to the M23 and Gatwick Airport.
On arriving at the airport and talking to a fellow traveller about the difficult journey, and the forced entry into the ULEZ, but I was reassured that if the diversion took me into the ULEZ I would not be charged and indeed, he read out the statement from the TfL site "All ULEZ cameras along the diversion route are switched off.". This reassured me that I didn't have to do anything as I had to the best of my knowledge followed the diversion. This was a relief as I don't have a smart phone and had no real way of paying the ULEZ charge from my destination in Croatia.
However, on returning home 17 days later I received the PCN [see attached]. Not only had I been charged but the fee had increased to £90 because I'd not paid it within the allotted 3 days (which obviously I didn't think I had to do).
I of course made a representation, wrongly assuming it would be a simple matter of explaining the circumstances and in support I sent my Gatwick North terminal Car parking voucher and Flight details to prove that Gatwick was my destination and that I had never intended to go 20 miles out of my way to get there. I was rather naive with my appeal as it was obvious to me that it was only because of the diversion that I had entered the ULEZ and because of that, no fine was chargeable. I had, as far as I am aware followed the correct diversion signs but as I didn't know what roads were involved in the diversion, Farnborough Way meant nothing to me, so it was conceivable I could have gone wrong somewhere.
The representation was not upheld on the basis that, from what I understand in the letter, TfL could find no information on the road being closed or diversion in place!!! I had not sent supporting evidence that the road was closed and consequently I could have paid the ULEZ charge any time in the 64 days leading up to driving - they seem to have completely ignored the fact that I'd never intended using that route so had no reason to pay to use it.
Since receiving the representation refusal, I have contacted the National Highways authority and they have substantiated the road closure and sent a link to the authorised diversion. It shows that Farnborough Way Orpington is part of the official diversion, so as I had thought, I had followed the route as signed.
(https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1xjlApkqH_ORKr5fd6up_v6GJuXGv9mM&ll=51.362801985665875%2C0.07317741325964189&z=15)
I certainly had not expected that it would be my responsibility to prove to TfL that the extremely busy and important London Orbital was closed so I suspect they are just flexing their muscle and using threatening means to bully people into paying the fines.
Should I just use the appeal form to set out my case, (I'm concerned that I need to make the appeal as watertight as possible as it is a 'last ditch' attempt to present my case and I don't know what else I need to include).. Or should I write again to TfL with the letter of road closure and route map supplied by National Highways to prove that I was forced to use the official diversion?
I would be very grateful for advice on how to proceed,
thank you in advance
Nick
https://imgur.com/a/SrFNqLS