Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: dave-o on June 18, 2024, 03:18:17 pm
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Anything of use in the NOR or shall I pay the reduced rate?
(https://i.ibb.co/JzzrrMr/NOR1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Bjp8ZnQ/NOR2.jpg)
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Unless instructed otherwise I will give it a few days and then try to appeal on the basis of it only being 13 minutes over the ticket displayed. I don't imagine this will fly but then I will hopefully be offered the reduced sum again.
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Hi, any ideas for this please? Thanks
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The NTO has arrived as follows:
(https://i.ibb.co/QmfNwmR/NTO1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/PYG8P8R/NTO2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/wK6Zjgb/NTO3.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/35xWVfc/NTO4.jpg)
If there's nothing of use here, will I just submit a generic appeal and hope they re-offer the discount?
I still haven't seen the PCN and I don't think this NTO offers me an opportunity to either?
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The orders' references to ECNs are not grounds for appeal IMO because they don't bear upon the issue. PCNs are issued pursuant to primary and secondary legislation, not what an order might or might not state.
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Thanks for locating the PPOs, much appreciated. Also appreciate any opinions on them.
So judging on the above two posts, I'm not sure if the point on the PPO is strong or not? Is it something that could go either way?
I guess there's no mileage on the ticket only having expired for 13 minutes on the grounds of de minimis?
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But OP IMO this doesn't invalidate the order's provisions whose enforcement would still be covered by this:
In this case:
Schedule 7 to the TMA
3(1)In Greater London there is a parking contravention in relation to a vehicle if it is stationary in circumstances in which any of the offences listed below is committed.
...
(d)an offence under section 35A(1) of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (contravention of orders relating to parking places provided under section 32 or 33 of that Act);
This is why orders should not refer to enforcement(other than possibly removal of vehicles) because they get overtaken by changes in other legislation.
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Main orders:
The Hillingdon (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1985 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PKnwTAvik7gLT8wf37h-i1_blkLmYwoM/view)
The Hillingdon (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1985 (Variation No. 19 ) 2005 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lAVQYLVh_iff5CUA1DU7ZwNW-mg2ACy8/view), which makes provisions for P&D machines
The Hillingdon (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1985 (Variation No 21) 2006 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VLJGvgMGy9hvaWRMHl_I017M3tSA6ZeX/view), which adds Rockingham Recreation Ground car park to the order,
The Hillingdon (Off Street Parking Places) Order 1985 (Variation No. 31) 2009 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10bLurce9t8eCMKMyukDfyUwMiCId2cez/view), which alters the parking charges in Rockingham Recreation Ground car park.
If anyone wants to look at all the orders they're saved in this folder (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OxZjtIX1--90oV7ZvrCyooE_3Pa8jYiR), but as far as I can see the order has never been updated for civil enforcement and it still makes reference to excess charge notices and it being a criminal offence to fail to pay an ECN.
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No, sorry, there was an earlier one in reply to a request in which i didn't specify your minimum requirements.
Thank you for your email received in this office on the 26th June 2024 in connection with your Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
Please be advised the PCN number is XXXXXXXXX, issued on the 17th June 2024 at 17:11 in Rockingham Recreation Ground Car Park . Issued for code 83 -No valid Pay and display Ticket.
The discount amount of £30.00 is available up to and including 1st July 2024 , after which it will increase to the full amount of £60.00.
Please check via our website https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk to view your PCN Details.
If you wish to dispute this parking ticket, please do not make payment and put your challenge in writing to:
Parking Services,
PO Box 1180
Uxbridge
UB8 9DH
or via our website https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk
The different payment methods are listed below.
· A cheque or postal order, made payable to London Borough of Hillingdon, can be sent to Parking Services, PO Box 1180 Uxbridge UB8 9DH. Please ensure the Notice number is clearly written on the reverse of the cheque.
· Ringing the automated payment line on 03300 517 889 is available 24 hours a day.
· A personal visit to the Cashiers Office located at the Civic Centre, Uxbridge.
· On-line at https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk
Thanks
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Are their total responses those posted on 24 June and this last one?
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I'd write back.
You don't need a copy of the PCN but you do need and require the authority to provide details of:
How the penalty may be contested e.g. by whom, timeframe, in what form, how and to whom must this be sent etc;
The authority's duties in this regard;
The rules relating to payment,
What happens if payment is not made;
Their reply to this request:
Thank you for your email received in this office on 26th June 2024 in connection with the PCN XXXXXX.
Please be advised that you are entitled to appeal the PCN within 28 days of the PCN being issued. This can be done via our website (https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk) or via our postal address (Parking Services, PO Box 1180, Uxbridge, UB8 9DH), as previously advised. You have until 17th July 2024 to make an appeal.
If you decide to appeal the PCN, once your appeal has been received, the case will be on hold until an appeals officer is able to investigate. Please be advised that all our appeals have to actioned in date order, from when the appeal was submitted. We would also advise that in general it takes at least 10 working days for an appeal to be investigated, however, this can take longer due to the high volume of workload we receive.
Once the appeals officer has investigated, their decision will be informed to you via a letter, sent out to the address provided with the appeal.
You have also been given the opportunity to pay the discounted rate of the PCN within the first 14 days of the PCN being issued. As previously advised the discounted rate was available up to the 1st July. This date has now passed and the PCN has now increased to the full amount of £60.00.
If you wish to make payment, you can do so via our website (https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk), our payment line (0330 057 1889) or via cheque (sent to Parking Services, PO Box 1180 Uxbridge UB8 9DH). You must not make payment if you wish to appeal the PCN.
If an appeal or payment has not been received, then the case will progress in line with legislation and will result in us requesting the DVLA for the registered keepers details and sending out a formal Notice to Owner.
All appeals and challenges are dealt with as per the Traffic Management Act 2004 and associated statutory instruments.
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Thank you then, I shall save my money and wait! Appreciate your help.
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I'll get some pics of the P&D text. Is there somewhere I can search a database of PPOs?
I have requested the PPO from the council, but it's not due back till 22 July.
As the discount period ends on Monday, I would really appreciate a gut feeling on whether anything here is likely to bring a win at NTO or NPAS.
If you wait for the notice to owner and then make representations within 14 days of the date of issue, the discount is normally reoffered anyway for a further 14 days even if the council rejects, so there is limited risk in taking it to the NTO stage. It's only at the tribunal that's it's all or nothing (as long as you don't miss that 14 day deadline to challenge the NTO, which the NTO doesn't even mention so if we didn't tell you, you wouldn't know about it).
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'A penalty charge may be issued for non-compliance' [with the conditions] is there.
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Here are the P&D machine terms. There are no other terms anywhere.
(https://i.ibb.co/MDWk9DM/20240627-102127-1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/XyhbVch/20240627-102132-1.jpg)
As the discount period ends on Monday, I would really appreciate a gut feeling on whether anything here is likely to bring a win at NTO or NPAS.
Thanks
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Don't delay by trying to hunt down a traffic order.
In simple terms traffic orders should not include references to PCNs or even penalties because this is not their function. A penalty is currently payable when a motorist fails to comply with a lawful provision of an order* because the Traffic Management Act says so. Nothing to do with the order itself or even the enabling legislation under which it was made(RTRA).
However, the Ts&Cs at a car park should warn motorists of the implications of failing to comply i.e. a penalty.
*- lawful provisions as regards the TMA do not include selling from vehicles/not having tax etc. despite some orders still including such matters.
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There's no sign at the entrance with Ts&Cs. The only Ts&Cs as such are the ones on the meter. Other than that the only sign is the "have you paid and displayed" one. Is this sufficient notice?
Possibly not, does the P&D machine mention the parking places order, and does it say anything about PCNs?
I'll get some pics of the P&D text. Is there somewhere I can search a database of PPOs?
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There's no sign at the entrance with Ts&Cs. The only Ts&Cs as such are the ones on the meter. Other than that the only sign is the "have you paid and displayed" one. Is this sufficient notice?
Possibly not, does the P&D machine mention the parking places order, and does it say anything about PCNs?
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In writing.
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Thanks, no harm in asking and seeing what they say, I will do so.
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What?
So how the hell are you supposed to know from this the deadlines for payment, their duty to consider reps, what a NTO is and when it may be served and on whom etc?
where you can also challenge the PCN or make payment to close the case.
And why would you know, as a simple motorist, what the f*** is a challenge and to whom must it be sent and by when? 'Case', is this criminal?
I'd write back.
You don't need a copy of the PCN but you do need and require the authority to provide details of:
How the penalty may be contested e.g. by whom, timeframe, in what form, how and to whom must this be sent etc;
The authority's duties in this regard;
The rules relating to payment,
What happens if payment is not made;
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I didn't suggest it wasn't served and I don't plan to. I contacted the very next day by phone, along the lines of "was I served one?", and was told I had been served one, and i should email them to ask for a copy (although to be fair he did say it was unlikely).
The email correspondence:
(Me, 18th June a.m.)
I spoke to one of your colleagues who suggested I email you about this. When I returned to my car yesterday there was a PCN envelope on it but no PCN inside. I spoke to your colleague on the phone who was able to give me the PCN number (HNXXXXXX), but when i look at the evidence on the website, a copy of the PCN is not there. Could I please ask that you either send me a copy of the PCN itself, or add this to the evidence on the website?
Hillingdon Parking Services (18th June p.m.)
We are in receipt of your email dated 18/6/24.
Unfortunately we are unable to provide a copy of the PCN that was printed out and left on your vehicle yesterday 17/6/24.
The details of the PCN are as follows:
HNXXXXXXXXX
Issued on 17/6/24 at 17:14
Vehicle Registration Number: XXXXXXX
Location: Rockingham Recreation Ground Car Park
Issued for Code 83: No valid P&D ticket
Photographs relating to this PCN can be viewed on our website - https://hillingdonparking.apcoa.co.uk where you can also challenge the PCN or make payment to close the case.
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I emailed to request this but they state that they cannot provide a copy of a PCN.
Copies please. This is outrageous and has nothing to do with parking per se.
Yours is NOT like the case of someone who might claim to have not received a PCN, this happens after a NTO plonks onto the doormat. You are asking for a copy of the PCN less than 4 days after it was served. You acknowledge it was served - I hope you didn't suggest it wasn't- but this isn't the point. Unless there was a reason for the wording in a PCN, then why bother with it? The wording is there for a purpose and IMO you have every right to ask for a copy, subject to establishing your bona fides in the matter.
Let's see the correspondence pl.
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There's no sign at the entrance with Ts&Cs. The only Ts&Cs as such are the ones on the meter. Other than that the only sign is the "have you paid and displayed" one. Is this sufficient notice?
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No excuses for being late really, although it was only 13 minutes.
Even if it's not an excuse, it's useful to know the facts of the case.
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No excuses for being late really, although it was only 13 minutes. This is quite a remote location, and as you can see there are no other cars. I would have run back if I thought there were likely to be any issues.
As usual, I'm hoping for a technicality.
Thanks
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So the allegation is "83 - Parked in a car park without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher or parking clock", here are the council photos:
(https://i.imgur.com/7hz3QD8.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yr3C1p6.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WbrCqRG.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/cCMbmRK.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aWjCQfN.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Eyk0A1O.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ux5feo8.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ma02FH0.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6xaAAtu.jpeg)
Let's start with the facts, why were you late back to the car?
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@dave-o give us the PCN number and number plate please.
Unfortunately if a third party removed the PCN, this does not negate the fact that the PCN was validly served. This is why it is a criminal offence for a third party to take the PCN, but I can't imagine it's a top priority for the police.
I know there's no mileage in the PCN removal thing, otherwise everyone would claim it was taken. I don't expect this to be an appeal point in itself, I'd just really like a copy of the PCN for my appeals...
I will PM you the details, thanks.
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@dave-o give us the PCN number and number plate please.
Unfortunately if a third party removed the PCN, this does not negate the fact that the PCN was validly served. This is why it is a criminal offence for a third party to take the PCN, but I can't imagine it's a top priority for the police.
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they state that they cannot provide a copy of a PCN.
I'm not sure of the legality of this, but if you get as far as London Tribunals, they must include a copy of the PCN in their evidence pack.
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Hi
I imagine this will turn into a longer thread once I have some documents, but here is the initial question:
I returned to find a PCN envelope but no PCN inside it. I contacted the relevant council who confirmed that a PCN was issued, and gave me the PCN number. I have logged on to the website and can see the photos, but there is no copy of the PCN available. It's not possible to tell from the photos whether there was a PCN inside, but it is "one of those areas" so I wouldn't be surprised if someone else took it.
I emailed to request this but they state that they cannot provide a copy of a PCN. Is this right? If so it would be a shame for the sake of complete documentation and potential technical errors with the PCN.
Thanks