Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: DitzyLizzie on June 17, 2024, 06:27:25 pm
-
It is really quite disgraceful that this council allowed the matter to get to adjudication. Their ignorance and stupidity of the signing requirements for an RPZ is appalling, but as we know, it is all about the money.
Well done to the OP for persisting !
-
Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WwTc9mGiWNXP5OP7DALAq-MZHEcPjZzx/view).
-
Your email replied to but it bounced back.
I will definitely pass it on today. I'll get back ASAP thank you
-
Thank you
Message received and will be passed on today :)
-
@DitzyLizzie well as the discount is not on offer it's a no-brainer to carry on. You are entitled to park on double yellow lines by displaying a blue badge, so the signage was misleading. I'm going to drop you a PM in case you'd prefer to be represented.
-
Wow thank you so very much. That's fantastic
Shall let you all know what happens next.
:) :)
-
OP, IMO need to get back to the NOR.
An appeal is against the authority's Notice of Rejection which IMO is exactly where you start.
A suggested draft to knock around..
Dear Sir,
I refer you to the authority's NOR which states their reasons for rejecting my reps as follows:
[the] vehicle is on 'Unnamed service road to north of county court in an area with restrictions of no waiting and no loading at any time indicated by a sign and no observation period is required.'
The sign in question is referred to in the next paragraph as a Restricted Parking Zone. The authority claim that this sign also carries additional restrictions of 'No waiting at any time' and 'No loading at any time'.
I also refer you to the photos in the NOR which clearly show that my car was parked adjacent to double yellow lines which extend for the whole length of my car.
When the driver parked they did so in the full knowledge of the DYL but did not see any kerb markings in the vicinity of their car to indicate that loading restrictions were in force. Therefore they displayed a BB in the required position believing they were parking lawfully. At the time of parking they were not aware that they had, as the authority claim, passed a Restricted Parking Zone sign.
Although the authority's response refers to the presence of this sign, they have not included a photo neither have they indicated where it is located.
I submit that the contravention did not occur for the following reasons:
If the authority wish to rely upon the presence of road markings to convey the restriction, then their photo, which does not show any no loading markings in the vicinity of my car, shows that the alleged restriction was not conveyed as required.
2. However, if the authority wish to rely upon a restriction conveyed by an unspecified Restricted Parking Zone sign, then this restriction has not been conveyed as required because, as I discovered after the event, an RPZ may not include yellow lines of any restriction. It must surely follow that as an RPZ and yellow lines are mutually exclusive then the zone has not been marked as required.
3. The adjudicator will see from my attached screenshot captured from Google Street View that the 'unnamed' road is in fact Tackett Street and as such the PCN misstates the grounds (by virtue of not giving the correct location) and, yet to be verified, there is no such restriction relating to Tackett Street in the authority's evidence.
By 'marked as required', I refer to what I understand are the provisions regarding 'traffic signs' in the Local Authority Traffic Order(Procedure) Regulations.
My references to markings which apply to Restricted Parking Zones are to what I understand applies by virtue of Schedule 1 to the Traffic Signs etc. Regulations.
-
(https://i.ibb.co/4Y9Dbm2/Screenshot-20240619-173925.jpg)
This is the only.other sign on the whole of that Rd. We now know is Tracket St. ?
-
Sorry
There is just the two signs you pass one small before and the bigger confusing.sugn.
No more signs are on the whole Rd after those thst you can read. There is one very small defaced one in front of the court building.
-
Sorry, forgot to add the GSV link to the location.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YDLgaGce8pf62VT19
TBH, this does show RPX repeater signs, but the yellow lines should not be there as it causes confusion, (as in your case). Did you not notice these repeater signs ?
Another one here as you approach Tackett St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GXEdsbmbxy51Ro9q9
So your case may not be as clear-cut as I thought, but certainly the intention with RPZs is that there are no yellow lines within the zone. Coventry has a similar city centre zone; here is a typical entry sign: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vg9Ke9rsziv5su3RA
If you now tootle (virtually), along into the city centre you see no yellow lines. Notice that the double yellow lines in the GSV view stop at the sign.
The Coventry Gsv has massive unmissable signs too. Besides no double yellows. It's clear too.as the street is straight you're entering a no loading zone.
The small easy missed sugn is placed as such in Blackburn approaching a bend. Ste back and on glancing (of you.spot it)looks like it applied to the road you're leaving.?
' her driver said '
-
Thank you
I asked my friends driver.
He said no the 1st sign shown on tootling
With the 1st link was missed completely as you're looking for the street entrance.and it's set back small and could apply.to the street you're leaving ?
The 2nd.is confusing with the arrow it was spotted but thought it pointed to the street ahead not the one turning into and as you're approaching a sharp ish blind curve I the Rd you'r being careful watching the road.
That's the reply. :)
The FOI is back
Not sure I belive it
11 tickets (02) issued 2023 to 2024
And 5 this year to date
Wonder if I should ask how many issued on Traket St? Now instead of ' Unnamed road north of the courts ' ??
Should I now add into the tribunal notes.any more information ?
Plus their left blank the what
'regulations were not adhered to bit blank
(Ticked, I don't know )
Thank you.
-
Sorry, forgot to add the GSV link to the location.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/YDLgaGce8pf62VT19
TBH, this does show RPX repeater signs, but the yellow lines should not be there as it causes confusion, (as in your case). Did you not notice these repeater signs ?
Another one here as you approach Tackett St
https://maps.app.goo.gl/GXEdsbmbxy51Ro9q9
So your case may not be as clear-cut as I thought, but certainly the intention with RPZs is that there are no yellow lines within the zone. Coventry has a similar city centre zone; here is a typical entry sign: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Vg9Ke9rsziv5su3RA
If you now tootle (virtually), along into the city centre you see no yellow lines. Notice that the double yellow lines in the GSV view stop at the sign.
-
Wow so you think we've a good chance of winning.
Could you suggest any regulations disregsrded etc to add/edit the tribunal case please.
Iv screen shot the details that have been submitted.
I'll send the pics if that'll help ?
It'll be this aft or evening if that's OK?
Thank you so much to all who have given their time to help it's so very much appreciated
THANK YOU 😊
-
So here is the "live" GSV view, and the street is called Tackett Street, so the TRO is wrong as is the PCN. It is not an un-named service road. In addition, as HCA says, you should be able to rely on the yellow lines irrespective of whether they have set up an RPZ or not.
If this were me, I'd be taking them all the way to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. OK, you have to risk the extra £35, but councils shouldn't be able to play fast and loose with the regulations. They have certainly not followed the LATOR regulation in placing signage to adequately display the restriction, and that is the point that should win your case.
In support of this is the guidance issued by the DfT dated 5th December 2023: -
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-your-traffic-signs/on-street-parking-control-signs-and-road-markings#restricted-parking-zones
Essentially, the council have introduced the RPZ on the cheap, and left the existing yellow lines in place.They should have been removed, and also repeater signs put in place because the zone is so large. It's a complete Dog's Breakfast.
-
Was a Blue Badge being used?
Yes, in date, and set at the correct time.
Let's clear up this point. A BB, however displayed, does not provide a defence against an 02 contravention.
Therefore, if the traffic order imposes a no waiting/no loading restriction- which we can take as a working hypothesis- then the issue is whether the restriction was conveyed by 'such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;'.
The council's NOR does NOT rebut the keeper's claim that kerb blips were not present - the photos do not show any such blips - but instead claims that the driver passed 'Restricted Parking Zone' signs which include the permitted variant 'No Loading at any time'.
Which is c**p. A Restricted Parking Zone may NOT be marked by yellow lines. Are they mistaking a CPZ for a RPZ?
Whatever, the yellow lines are there which means that, irrespective of any entrance signs, the restriction must be marked completely.
It isn't.
Carry on IMO.
-
So if, as the council say, you were in a Restricted Parking Zone where no parking or loading is allowed, why are the double-yellow lines still in place ? Essentially the RPZ has not been implemented correctly if yellow lines are still in place, as it makes for confusion.
Thank you.
I read the blips also need to be every few meters. And clearly visible.
Do you want the FOI request letter ?
I'm betting the road brings in an awful lot of fines.
So where do we go from here ?
Do I add more wording into the tribunal notes ?
Wait for others more expert in RPZs than me, but I think you have a good appeal argument on the face of it. How do you know which County Court the service road is behind ?I looked on GSV, and the Blackburn COunty Court has a street at the rear, but it is named. However, the TRO for the RPZ lists "Un-named road to the north-east of the county court from its junction with Ainsworth Street and its junction with Victoria St, but I see no such street on GSV.
So, OP, can you please post-up a GSV link to the exact location where you parked.
I have found a couple of the RPZ entry signs: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/JAjYEkq1GvztKABD8
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6NxGW4rRX4YVQrJ48
A brief tootle around the city centre shows none of the old yellow lines removed. Hopefully the legality of this will be revealed.
Is GSV Google Street View?
This is her car in the exact spot when she returned to take videos and pictures after the representation rejection
(https://i.ibb.co/QpLPDDm/Screenshot-20240619-174138.jpg)
-
Phew ! Thank you
I need a lay down in a darkened room now. ;D
That taxed my old brain. :o
-
I read the blips also need to be every few meters. And clearly visible.
By creating an RPZ in the city centre with No Loading and No Parking except in marked bays they are relying on this for enforcement of the PCN. Within an RPZ there should be no yellow lines at all, as the entry signs govern the restrictions.
If you follow your route into the city, or let us know so we can look, you should have passed one of the signs I posted. By not removing the yellow lines, the council have created a confusing situation, especially if one misses the entry sign, as there appear to be no repeater signs at all.
-
So if, as the council say, you were in a Restricted Parking Zone where no parking or loading is allowed, why are the double-yellow lines still in place ? Essentially the RPZ has not been implemented correctly if yellow lines are still in place, as it makes for confusion.
Thank you.
I read the blips also need to be every few meters. And clearly visible.
Do you want the FOI request letter ?
I'm betting the road brings in an awful lot of fines.
So where do we go from here ?
Do I add more wording into the tribunal notes ?
Wait for others more expert in RPZs than me, but I think you have a good appeal argument on the face of it. How do you know which County Court the service road is behind ?I looked on GSV, and the Blackburn COunty Court has a street at the rear, but it is named. However, the TRO for the RPZ lists "Un-named road to the north-east of the county court from its junction with Ainsworth Street and its junction with Victoria St, but I see no such street on GSV.
So, OP, can you please post-up a GSV link to the exact location where you parked.
I have found a couple of the RPZ entry signs: -
https://maps.app.goo.gl/JAjYEkq1GvztKABD8
and
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6NxGW4rRX4YVQrJ48
A brief tootle around the city centre shows none of the old yellow lines removed. Hopefully the legality of this will be revealed.
-
Will what iv done up to now surface?
This should suffice. You've given us the essential missing details in replies#13 and#15
It's Blackburn with Darwin Borough Council
Pcn. DB30658070
Reg. PF21SXV
Date of (02) 16/02/24
This should suffice. If the experts here need anything else they will ask.
-
Motability car?
Was a Blue Badge being used?
Yes, in date, and set at the correct time. If you zoom I you can just about make it on the dash
-
Motability car?
Was a Blue Badge being used?
-
So if, as the council say, you were in a Restricted Parking Zone where no parking or loading is allowed, why are the double-yellow lines still in place ? Essentially the RPZ has not been implemented correctly if yellow lines are still in place, as it makes for confusion.
Thank you.
I read the blips also need to be every few meters. And clearly visible.
Do you want the FOI request letter ?
I'm betting the road brings in an awful lot of fines.
So where do we go from here ?
Do I add more wording into the tribunal notes ?
-
Well done :) But we will need the samll print on the back. You only need to redact names and addresses from documents. Leave in all dates, times, locations, contravention details, reg.mark and PCN number.
Please try to post them in date & page order....
I had edited out the information days ago then deleted the originals I'm so sorry, I'd have to go get her paperwork and redo it all. Sho only has her diver for limited times.
Will what iv done up to now surface?
:-\
Have I missed anything :-\
Definitely consider paying if I have to do it all again.
Her driver took two videos and walked the route. I have those can they be uploaded?
Would they help.
Just thought I have the pics driver took of the road we (i) attached to the representation email
I'll go find them
Sigh.. a friend in need eh 8)
-
So if, as the council say, you were in a Restricted Parking Zone where no parking or loading is allowed, why are the double-yellow lines still in place ? Essentially the RPZ has not been implemented correctly if yellow lines are still in place, as it makes for confusion.
-
(https://i.ibb.co/JKmdzD6/Screenshot-20240619-174055.jpg)
-
(https://i.ibb.co/6mC9CmV/Screenshot-20240619-174105.jpg)
-
(https://i.ibb.co/Mp5jj2x/Screenshot-20240619-174122.jpg)
-
Well done :) But we will need the samll print on the back. You only need to redact names and addresses from documents. Leave in all dates, times, locations, contravention details, reg.mark and PCN number.
Please try to post them in date & page order....
At this point I'm loosing the will to live and would consider paying the fine :-[
I'll try keep them in order, sorry.
but thank you 😊
(https://i.ibb.co/p1Y1Jxj/Screenshot-20240619-173715.jpg)
-
(https://i.ibb.co/w0F7kxr/Screenshot-20240619-173946.jpg)
-
Well done :) But we will need the samll print on the back. You only need to redact names and addresses from documents. Leave in all dates, times, locations, contravention details, reg.mark and PCN number.
Please try to post them in date & page order....
-
(https://i.ibb.co/s54vDRL/received-832762265415527.jpg)
-
Here we go fingers crossed
No.1
(https://i.ibb.co/D1rNNRN/202406171524-edited-1718691880192.jpg)
-
I'm a numpty :-\
Sooo sorry :o
It's PF21 SXV
It's a motility car, that's literally gone back today and she's just called (with her driver) In her new one.
Hoping that won't make any difference as she was the registered keeper.
If you can see the PCN pictures now.
It shows her car on double yellows but with her blue badge set at the correct time.
Thanks again
I will get a quiet hour to myself to get things posted.
Soon ::)
-
Hi
It's Blackburn with Darwin Borough Council
Pcn. DB30658070
Reg. PF21SVX
Date of (02) 16/02/24
Just going to follow the link now on my laptop
Thank you again
Seems to be incorrect somewhere? Maybe the car reg? I get "Please check the following and try again: The Penalty Charge Notice does not match the Vehicle Registration Number."
-
Hi
It's Blackburn with Darwin Borough Council
Pcn. DB30658070
Reg. PF21SVX
Date of (02) 16/02/24
Just going to follow the link now on my laptop
Thank you again
-
Meanwhile, as an alternative, give us the name of the council, PCN number and registration of the vehicle concerned.
-
Ahhh thank you that's wonderful. I'll do it yet ! Grrr ::)
-
I intend to try resize today.
Try
https://ibb.co which takes you to imgbb
I found it easy to understand. Upload one image (max size 32mb) at a time
and copy and post the BBcode for each one here.
You should not need to reduce the size of each image (right click on an image and select properties to check the size).
There's a guide to uploading there here
https://blog.bloom.io/imgbb-review/
(scroll down to What Is ImgBB? )
-
Good morning
No sorry, very full day, visiting, and visitors
I intend to try resize today. I have however started the tribunal. As it said I could add evidence etc in at a later date, also update the wording.
I tried 3 downsizing Apps, absolutely full of adverts or pay, couldn't see what I was trying to do.
So back to the drawing board and the instructions in here. See if I can do it :o
Thank you for asking and following up. Much appreciated.
I was on here many tears ago. When it was pepipoo. With a very similar parking ticket.
On a no loading street with unreadable signs and no or unclear curb blips. That went to tribunal with a FOI of how many besides me missed the signs and blips. There were loads, I won within minutes the adjudicator was disgusted. I had help from a member named Mike that I was on thepenalty charge forum with. He was brilliant, held my hand in cyber space and on the phone with my fight.
I wonder if he still fights the good fight on here still ?
I hope so, he knew his stuff :)
I'll be back soon as I can digest the advice on the photos
:)
-
@DitzyLizzie any update?
-
Thank you, I'll be back refreshed after a good sleep, bad night ! :'(
Again thank you :)
-
No worries. We all started somewhere on the curve. :)
-
Hello
Many thanks, I read the uploading pics via links and didn't quite understand it (painkillers, fuzzy,sciatica at present)
I shall read and try digest 'how to" again.
As you're correct ! sorry yes
I have edited out sensitive information then tried to upload as attachments.
All a learning curve
I shall try again.
Thank you for baring with me. :-\
-
I tried but the file/s were too big. I'll read how to resize as iv not done it before then try again. :o
No, you probably tried uploading the files as attachments, which you cannot do. You need to read the guidance: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
There is no fee for appealing, if you appeal and lose only the original penalty (without the 50% discount) is payable.
-
Thank you both.
I tried but the file/s were too big. I'll read how to resize as iv not done it before then try again. :o
-
If what you say is true then your friend probably has grounds of procedural impropriety available to them in any appeal.
I suspect that they're misinterpreting the Notice of Rejection, but all will be revealed when you post the other notices/correspondence.
-
For meaningful advice please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and post up here all sides of all paperwork to and from the Council beginning with the PCN and redacting only name & address, together with a GSV link to the location.
Assuming this is not a London Council or TfL PCN, the penalty should remain at £70 as long as no deadline is missed.
It might even revert to £35 but impossible to tell without seeing all the evidence.
-
Hello
Posting on behalf of a disabled, elderly close friend who is a technophobe, im not that great either.
Before i go into where when etc.
i read up on here and appealed, rejected, She and i would like to know please.
If she should lose at tribunal would the fine remain at £70 or cost her more.
She now has 10 days left to decide, i tried to find the answer but despite searching i couldn't hence im here.
if it would remain She'll (ill) fight it.
if it will increase She will pay it.
in a nut shell Code(02) but no or hardly visible at all curb blips.
one small defaced unreadable sign on the rd.. two on entry to the long rd that are very confusing.
Many,Many thanks in advance