Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Faust on June 15, 2024, 01:32:19 pm

Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on July 18, 2024, 05:55:55 am
Thanks to everyone who helped me with this PCN. Received a letter from TFL confirming that my PCN has been cancelled. Very happy with it. I guess that's why they haven't replied via email.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: cp8759 on July 01, 2024, 10:56:35 pm
They could easily take 6 weeks or more, don't expect a prompt response.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on July 01, 2024, 10:02:32 am
Quick one, still haven't heard back from Tfl. And is that screenshot really important when I submitted the appeal, can't find it on my PC.
Well according to the case history at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn they've sent you a confirmation email, have you received that?

You can just take a screenshot of the case history on the TFL website, though of course that is missing the representation reference but it's not the end of the world if we don't have that.

Thanks a lot, was worried a bit. Still haven't received a response from them yet.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: cp8759 on June 30, 2024, 02:52:05 pm
Quick one, still haven't heard back from Tfl. And is that screenshot really important when I submitted the appeal, can't find it on my PC.
Well according to the case history at https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn they've sent you a confirmation email, have you received that?

You can just take a screenshot of the case history on the TFL website, though of course that is missing the representation reference but it's not the end of the world if we don't have that.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: H C Andersen on June 28, 2024, 09:26:02 am
The arrangement of signs and lines is so contrary to regs it's difficult to put into words.

You cannot have permitted footway parking where DRL are marked on the carriageway.

End of.

But TfL are likely to huff and puff and not accept the matter, certainly initially.

Your case is distinguished because the only reason you got a PCN was because you were not parked within a marked bay. But parking in a marked bay on the footway is not a defence against DRL anyway?

And the marked bays are tosh anyway because the footway parking sign doesn't require vehicles to be parked within marked bays - if it meant it then it must state it!

What a c**k-up.

Can't wait to see their response.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 28, 2024, 08:48:06 am
Quick one, still haven't heard back from Tfl. And is that screenshot really important when I submitted the appeal, can't find it on my PC.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 20, 2024, 10:21:10 am
Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I don't hold that knowledge, about all the PCN appeal and system.
Don't worry about that, that's why we're here. Just let us know when you hear back from TFL.

Thanks a lot. Really appreciate your help. Will update this topic when I got a reply from them.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: cp8759 on June 19, 2024, 01:03:00 am
Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I don't hold that knowledge, about all the PCN appeal and system.
Don't worry about that, that's why we're here. Just let us know when you hear back from TFL.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 18, 2024, 10:23:34 am
If they decide to decline the appeal, means I will have to pay for it?
It's not an appeal, it's just an informal representation. Much as TFL would like to be judge, jury and executioner, it's not actually up to them whether you have to pay because we don't live in North Korea. It's only if you lose the appeal to London Tribunals that you actually have to pay.

You should probably read this page to understand the full process: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process

Details of the appeal process itself are provided here https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appeals-process-explained but note that where they mention a "Notice of Rejection" that refers to a formal Notice of Rejection that is only issued in response to formal representations made against a Notice to Owner; informal representations against a roadside PCN only lead to an informal rejection which cannot be used to appeal to the tribunal.

After the informal rejection has been received, the next step in the process will be a Notice to Owner and we'll help you with the formal representations.

Thanks a lot. Unfortunately I don't hold that knowledge, about all the PCN appeal and system. But hope they will respond within the 28 days.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: cp8759 on June 17, 2024, 11:12:56 pm
If they decide to decline the appeal, means I will have to pay for it?
It's not an appeal, it's just an informal representation. Much as TFL would like to be judge, jury and executioner, it's not actually up to them whether you have to pay because we don't live in North Korea. It's only if you lose the appeal to London Tribunals that you actually have to pay.

You should probably read this page to understand the full process: https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/understanding-enforcement-process/parking-penalty-charge-notice-enforcement-process

Details of the appeal process itself are provided here https://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/appeals-process-explained but note that where they mention a "Notice of Rejection" that refers to a formal Notice of Rejection that is only issued in response to formal representations made against a Notice to Owner; informal representations against a roadside PCN only lead to an informal rejection which cannot be used to appeal to the tribunal.

After the informal rejection has been received, the next step in the process will be a Notice to Owner and we'll help you with the formal representations.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: slapdash on June 17, 2024, 11:10:56 am
Not at that point. There is an amount of guidance on the process just before where you entered your post.

One point is whether the vehicle is registered to you or somebody else.

They have a tendency to reject informal rejections "because they can".
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 17, 2024, 06:20:36 am
Thanks a lot @cp8759

All submitted now, wasn't aware I can access to these images.

Quote
Your representation has been submitted.

A response will be sent to the registered keeper / liable party. The enforcement process is now suspended. We aim to respond to you within 15 days. Please contact us in 21 days if you have not received a response.

Representation reference number - GF84653686 - 52395290

If they decide to decline the appeal, means I will have to pay for it?
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 11:49:59 pm
Here are TFL's photos:

(https://i.imgur.com/wHNYktA.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/BAaKEBc.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fZLkLyn.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/tLlwEzV.jpeg)

Here's an informal representation you can send:

Dear Transport for London,

I challenge liability on the ground that the alleged contravention did not occur. There are cars parked on the footpath throughout this road, and the clear impression created by the layout is that the red route restrictions only apply to the carriageway. While ordinarily double red lines would apply to the whole width of the road, the layout on St Helier's Avenue completely contradicts that principle, and does not appear to be sanctioned by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016.

In truth if there are white bays along a red route, there should not be any double red lines either. If there were no red lines adjacent to the bays, such that red lines appears only where stopping is actually prohibited, it would be clear as day where stopping is or isn't permitted.

As the confusing and unauthorised layout does not adequately convey the effect of The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Merton) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2007, the alleged contravention did not occur because the authority has failed to discharge its duties under regulations 18(1) of The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996.

It follows that the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Send this via https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/challenge-a-pcn and keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. TFL will undoubtedly send a fob-off rejection, but this lays the groundwork for the tribunal.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 16, 2024, 11:25:14 pm
Link to the PCN:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KBHcyMDz5RGXTOZeWYmu-J5oRGsHGxFi?usp=share_link
@Faust you need to change the sharing settings to public please.

Apologies, haven't checked that.

It should be available now for everyone with a link
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 11:21:23 pm
Link to the PCN:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KBHcyMDz5RGXTOZeWYmu-J5oRGsHGxFi?usp=share_link
@Faust you need to change the sharing settings to public please.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 16, 2024, 11:09:05 pm
@Faust I think there may be plenty of grounds but you need to read the guidance here in full: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Then post the PCN with no redactions, don't use this wetransfer.com nonsense (nobody wants to start opening loads of links), we need the PCN number and the number plate.

The PCN was issued by a MET community support officer but they don't have a uniform that allows them to issue PCNs, so there's a procedural impropriety.

Thanks for your reply. I have uploaded more images with the PCN and the location as well.

Link to the PCN:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KBHcyMDz5RGXTOZeWYmu-J5oRGsHGxFi?usp=share_link


And that the Google Maps street view location.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/6bNt8ScJE1WS5E5S8

Let me know if that's alright.

Thanks.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 10:31:07 pm
@Faust I think there may be plenty of grounds but you need to read the guidance here in full: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

Then post the PCN with no redactions, don't use this wetransfer.com nonsense (nobody wants to start opening loads of links), we need the PCN number and the number plate.

The PCN was issued by a MET community support officer but they don't have a uniform that allows them to issue PCNs, so there's a procedural impropriety.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 16, 2024, 05:31:11 pm


I haven't parked on the red lines. I have attached a photo where I parked my car.
I was really surprised to see the police officer issuing a PCN.

You have parked on red lines because the lines apply to the road, the pavement and the verge.

You may only stop in a designated bay or because of traffic queues & signals.

your ticket is for stopping on a red route, not parking on the pavement.

So there's no way to appeal or win this case? I wasn't aware about that.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: facade on June 16, 2024, 01:51:39 pm


I haven't parked on the red lines. I have attached a photo where I parked my car.
I was really surprised to see the police officer issuing a PCN.

You have parked on red lines because the lines apply to the road, the pavement and the verge.

You may only stop in a designated bay or because of traffic queues & signals.

your ticket is for stopping on a red route, not parking on the pavement.


Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: John U.K. on June 16, 2024, 12:11:26 pm
TfL use the British Transport Police for matters relating to London Underground. But that doesn't extend to road traffic matters.
I am under the impression that Red Routes are under the jurisdiction of the police rather than TfL or local council CEOs.
It has been against the law to park on the pavenemt in the Greater London are for an awful long time.


Roy, this
https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/transparency/freedom-of-information/foi-request-detail?referenceId=FOI-1364-2324

gives insight into the arrangements by which Met PCSOs paid for by TfL are usewd by TfL to enforce on Red Routes.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: 666 on June 16, 2024, 11:50:01 am
TfL use the British Transport Police for matters relating to London Underground. But that doesn't extend to road traffic matters.

I am under the impression that Red Routes are under the jurisdiction of the police rather than TfL or local council CEOs.

It has been against the law to park on the pavenemt in the Greater London are for an awful long time.

I haven't parked on the red lines. I have attached a photo where I parked my car.
I was really surprised to see the police officer issuing a PCN.
The red lines (and yellow ones, for that matter) apply across the whole highway, including the footpaths.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 16, 2024, 11:37:11 am
TfL use the British Transport Police for matters relating to London Underground. But that doesn't extend to road traffic matters.

I am under the impression that Red Routes are under the jurisdiction of the police rather than TfL or local council CEOs.

It has been against the law to park on the pavenemt in the Greater London are for an awful long time.

I haven't parked on the red lines. I have attached a photo where I parked my car.
I was really surprised to see the police officer issuing a PCN.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: roythebus on June 16, 2024, 11:14:42 am
TfL use the British Transport Police for matters relating to London Underground. But that doesn't extend to road traffic matters.

I am under the impression that Red Routes are under the jurisdiction of the police rather than TfL or local council CEOs.

It has been against the law to park on the pavenemt in the Greater London are for an awful long time.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 16, 2024, 10:29:14 am
Also, forgot to mention, that I have parked on there to drop my 4months old baby in the house. As there was unsafe to stop on the road, I stopped on the kerb.

Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 16, 2024, 08:47:11 am
Typing from my laptop now.

Here's the link to all images.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/117AoFYVuFUyxzJMlS_pkBr6Kg0M6ACyL?usp=share_link

And here's the google map link
https://maps.app.goo.gl/16ECp49rRuiMoexXA

The other side of the PCN is blank , so there's no information behind it.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 15, 2024, 04:27:21 pm
That's the Google Street view where I have parked.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/uwBS6xHZsisUdSFy7
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 15, 2024, 04:24:38 pm
I have attached a link to all photos. As I am browsing from my phone.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Neil B on June 15, 2024, 04:17:35 pm
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 15, 2024, 03:49:02 pm
So any advice on this one?
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: John U.K. on June 15, 2024, 03:02:37 pm
As far as I know TfL do not have a police arm, suggest this is nothing to do with the police at all but just TfL.

AIUI, TfL use met police as their agents to enforce on red routes. Which may raise questions as to the appropriate uniform.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 15, 2024, 02:37:40 pm
Yeap. So is there chance to win this appeal? Should I appeal it?
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: FuzzyDuck on June 15, 2024, 02:35:27 pm
I saw the images you posted on MSE, it appears to be a Tfl PCN.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 15, 2024, 02:28:13 pm
It was issued by police. As I spoke to him that I am about to move the car.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: FuzzyDuck on June 15, 2024, 01:53:12 pm
As far as I know TfL do not have a police arm, suggest this is nothing to do with the police at all but just TfL.
Title: Re: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 15, 2024, 01:35:50 pm
I have attached some images in the link below

https://we.tl/t-Z2B1b3XyjK
Title: PCN by tfl police
Post by: Faust on June 15, 2024, 01:32:19 pm
Hello. This morning I have received a PCN by Tfl police. I parked on on the kerb just after the parking bays.


I would like to appeal the PCN, just thinking of legal grounds.

Any advice? Thanks.