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Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on June 14, 2024, 07:04:37 pm

Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 30, 2024, 09:00:08 pm
Thank you for your prompt response. As, today was the last day to pay at the discounted rate.

I will pay the PCN at the discounted rate and then have a think if I would like to take it further.



Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: cp8759 on July 30, 2024, 08:39:21 pm
@TMOCONTRACTLAW to answer your PM, you have the following issue: TfL will only freeze the PCN at the discounted amount if they receive notice that an appeal has been listed from the tribunal while the discount is still on offer. The NoR is dated 18 July so even if you'd appealed a couple of days ago, it would have been too late as it takes the tribunal around 5 to 7 business days to process the form and notify TFL.

However there is a simple workaround: if you pay the PCN at the 50% rate and then appeal anyway, TFL have not (in our experience to date) ever demanded the other £80 even if the appeal is refused, but obviously if the appeal is won you TFL will be ordered to refund the £80 payment.

So in short my advice is to pay the £80 now and then file an appeal anyway, as you effectively get a risk-free appeal.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 29, 2024, 01:25:33 pm
The appeal form: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cSwOEfs7lYax76bt2fpG1jt324S8xZEL/view
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: H C Andersen on July 29, 2024, 09:26:55 am
OP, pl post 'the enclosed appeal form'.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 29, 2024, 01:09:46 am
I remember online filling out my details which included putting in my email but, I do not recall telling TfL to email me the NoR. Would it be worthwhile getting in touch with TfL to see why they have emailed me the letter instead of posting it out? As surely by now I would have received it now in the post.

Also, they has sent me the CCTV footage by post and then sent another copy but the 2nd one didn't have a DVD inside the post. I have kept both letters. They both have tracking numbers. Not sure if this is necessary but, still worth mentioning.

Will wait for cp8759 input whether to take it further or pay at the discounted rate.

Edit - Have checked my reps confirmation screenshot and it does say the NoR 'may be served to the email address entered'.
Reps screenshot:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mQNfs7Zgk5FpUjlf1hvprie_7MyPT6mO
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: Incandescent on July 28, 2024, 11:37:27 pm
As far as I know sending letters of refusal by post is mandatory unless you have agreed to receive them by email. As expected, they have re-offered the discount (£80).
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 28, 2024, 09:27:22 pm
Attached are both pages of the Notice of Rejection.

I have received this via email alongside the 'your right to appeal' document. I have not received this letter or anything else in the post as of yet.

Are TfL required to post the Notice of Rejection to me?

Page 1 of NoR: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1z8EABD3AU0Ng1djAf5BLPOLgTDVF6sE-/
Page 2 of NoR: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_jCrWRpV4IfusthzUTZ8zxzAZ5F1C7r4/view
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 24, 2024, 08:04:57 pm
I understand that if I did appeal, TfL will most likely reoffer the discounted rate again.

What would I be appealing it under?

Also, I haven't received paperwork in the post as of yet but have received the rejection letter via email last week. I'll try to upload it later.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2024, 12:59:47 am
@TMOCONTRACTLAW if you appeal while the discount is still on offer, the pattern for many years has been that TFL will not demand the full penalty even if you lose the appeal. Of course we cannot give you an absolute guarantee that TFL hasn't changed its policy this week, but you'd have to be exceptionally unlucky for that to be the case.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 19, 2024, 12:01:39 am
I have previously pm'ed the footage to cp8759.

I have checked the PCN status history and it states "Rejected Representation - Discount Period Reset TfL has rejected a representation received for this PCN. The discount period has been reset for a specific duration."

The above is dated on the 18th July 2024.

I have not received the rejection notice or paper work in the post yet so I'm waiting for that.

In the meantime, @cp8759 do you think I still have a ground to take it further or is it best to pay up while the discount is there?

Will post up the paperwork when in arrives.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 05, 2024, 05:53:07 pm
I’ve received the CCTV footage today.

The relevant part starts from 4:50. Seems that I was only there for 3 minutes and then you can see my vehicle has moved up the road at around 9:40.

Any chance to appeal the matter or do you recon TfL have got me fair and square? The reps submitted the other day are under review as of 04/07/24.

CCTV Footage: Link to follow shortly

PCN Status History (at 05/07/24): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nUeWlaIqvTIxqJD-zheuJGnCm_jMlI_P

Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: cp8759 on July 03, 2024, 06:04:02 pm
Quote from: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 02, 2024, 07:45:25 pm
What are we hoping to do by submitting these reps, what will the next step be from TfL and is it usually a long wait until they respond?
Making representations is a necessary step to get to the tribunal. You cannot appeal a PCN, you can only appeal a Notice of Rejection, and you can only get a Notice of Rejection by making representations. So basically the purpose of the representations is to get a Notice of Rejection that you can then appeal against.

They have 56 days to serve a notice of rejection and hopefully in the meantime you'll get the DVD with the video.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 02, 2024, 07:45:25 pm
I have submitted reps today as to not delay it and risk loosing the discounted period.

I clicked "the contravention did not occur" and was then required to input a comment where I simply stated "the contravention did not occur".

Confirmation that the reps has gone through: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mQNfs7Zgk5FpUjlf1hvprie_7MyPT6mO

PCN status history (at 02/07/24): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q9ZftnUZa8DPH-Joy9CI1VqZhJImAQOe

What are we hoping to do by submitting these reps, what will the next step be from TfL and is it usually a long wait until they respond?
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: cp8759 on July 02, 2024, 12:59:12 am
Quote from: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 02, 2024, 12:51:04 am
So, at this stage I should go online and make reps on the basis "the contravention did not occur"? If so, I will do this ASAP and update thread when I receive a response.
You could wait till the weekend, just to buy us more time; but I can see the logic in doing this ASAP to ensure the discount is reoffered.

Quote from: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 02, 2024, 12:51:04 am
If this reps is rejected (which I understand, it most likely will be) will they offer the reduced rate again?
Yes, and then if you appeal within a few days the discount will be reoffered again even if you lose at the tribunal.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 02, 2024, 12:51:04 am
Thank you for your response

So, at this stage I should go online and make reps on the basis "the contravention did not occur"? If so, I will do this ASAP and update thread when I receive a response.

If this reps is rejected (which I understand, it most likely will be) will they offer the reduced rate again?
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: cp8759 on July 01, 2024, 11:13:49 pm
Quote from: TMOCONTRACTLAW on June 26, 2024, 10:35:08 pm
@cp8759 Should I make reps before 14 July or 4th Of July? How should I structure the representations.
To preserve the discount you want to make representations before midnight on 7th July i.e. before the end of day 21 from the date of service.

The CCTV argument has now been turned on its head and it doesn't work for bays, it should only work for double red lines and only if the double red lines have no upright sign.

The representation can simply say "the contravention did not occur", you're not required to give any more detail than that. This should buy us several weeks as a minimum.

Also please note if you receive a notice of rejection from TFL and you appeal it straight away such that London Tribunals tells TFL that the PCN has been appealed before the extended discount period expires, then TFL will normally only demand the discounted penalty, so arguably you have nothing to lose.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on July 01, 2024, 11:31:52 am
Have called TfL today as have not received footage. They have informed they will issue it again (I take it it won't be issued before the reps are due)

Will the case of procedural impropriety stand in the case of TfL using CCTV anymore, is that out of the question?

The only other reps I can make is mitigating circumstances which would include why I needed to drop the passenger off where the PCN was issued (in the loading bay) and then had moved up the street to where there is a parking spot for 30 mins.

Will draft up a reply and post it here.

PCN Status History (01/07/24) - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SvLIr8NPnLAQtRxL1F4BNyWLRP66MpIz/view?usp=drive_link

Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on June 26, 2024, 10:35:08 pm
As advised, have called TFL on 17/06/24 to request footage. Still have not received anything in the post, will ring them again tomorrow to chase up.

@cp8759 Should I make reps before 14 July or 4th Of July? How should I structure the representations.

PCN status history: https://drive.google.com/file/d/136N3X7l4Hf5yoraMn6lp3BCyerMrTmF8/view?usp=sharing

Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on June 16, 2024, 11:25:11 pm
Thank you cp8759, for your response.

I will call TFL to ask for the DVD and tell them to put the PCN on hold.

In terms of what happened on the day, to the best of my knowledge, I had dropped off a passenger where the camera has caught me. Then a few minutes later I moved up the road where there is a red route parking spot (limited to 30 mins). This is where I had loaded bulky shopping which was not pre ordered.

Will update when I receive the footage or if nothing is received from TFL.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 11:13:01 pm
@TMOCONTRACTLAW firstly please re-post the PCN with the PCN number and number plate visible.

Secondly please call TFL first thing in the morning on 0343 222 3333 and ask for the video, they will send you a DVD in the post and put the penalty on hold while you wait. The hold only lasts a couple of weeks so put a reminder in your calendar to chase this up if you've not received the video after 14 days.

Whether you have received the video or not, come hell or high water you must make representations before midnight on 14 July, regardless of what promises TFL might have made to keep the matter on hold.

Also please give us a full narrative of events: when did you first stop here, why did you stop, what were you doing etc. If you were loading bulky shopping, were these pre-ordered goods?

Lastly the traffic order is The GLA Roads and GLA Side Roads (Camden) Red Route Consolidation Traffic Order 2007 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qLuwzdTof7SikrpFSWwfCOfephROZm4s/view), the relevant entry is item 9 on page 60:

A400 CAMDEN HIGH STREET, the north-east side from a point 75 metres south-east of the extended common boundary of Nos. 86 and 88 Camden High Street for a distance of 29 metres in a south-easterly direction

The bay used to be incorrectly marked up until July 2021, but the markings repainted since are correct and match the traffic order as far as I can work out.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on June 16, 2024, 09:51:07 pm
Will have a read through this.

What would be the last day that I have to make reps or pay at the reduced rate? The date of notice is 13/06/24

Would last day of reduced rate be 04/07/24?

Would reps need to be submitted by 11/7/24?

TIA

Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: Incandescent on June 16, 2024, 01:05:50 am
Read this: -
https://www.landmarkchambers.co.uk/news-and-cases/high-court-confirms-that-tfl-can-lawfully-use-cctv-to-issue-parking-penalties-in-red-route-parking-bays
It also has a link to the full judgment.
Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on June 15, 2024, 07:52:15 pm
Thanks for letting me know in regards to TFL and them going to Judicial review for the CCTV PCNs.

In the meantime, I will wait for cp8759's input, see what he recommends and if there is a chance to appeal the PCN.

Title: Re: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: Incandescent on June 14, 2024, 09:48:46 pm
Quote
I am not up to date but, last I have heard was that TFL should not be issuing red route parking contravention PCNs via CCTV and it should be via PCSOs on the spot (as I have witnessed this happening before at this location)
Unfortunately you are not up-to-date, because people on this forum got a result on this matter at London Tribunals, and TfL were so annoyed they took the matter to Judicial Review and won their case.  However, careful reading of the judgment revealed that the matter is not totally "done and dusted", but for the detail, I have to pass you on to our administrator who was originally involved, - cp8759, who can explain what signs are necessary on Red Routes in order to enforce via CCTV.
Title: TFL Code 46: Stopped where prohibited - Camden High St
Post by: TMOCONTRACTLAW on June 14, 2024, 07:04:37 pm
Hi,

Long term lurker, first time poster.

I have recently received a PCN from TFL for the alleged parking contravention - Code 46: Stopped where prohibited (on a red route or clearway)

The alleged contravention happened on Monday 10/06/24, date of notice 13/06/24 and received the PCN via post on 14/06/2024. It took place on Camden High Street, NW1. GSV = https://maps.app.goo.gl/9g1co5ky2jo9LTE3A    I am the vehicle owner and registered keeper.

I was not stopped here for long, as I had moved further up the road where there is a Red Route parking spot for 30 mins. This is where I had loaded bulky shopping.

I have redacted personal info from the PCN, if this is needed please PM me and I will happily provide it to you. 

At this stage, I have not done anything, other than view the PCN images online.

I am not up to date but, last I have heard was that TFL should not be issuing red route parking contravention PCNs via CCTV and it should be via PCSOs on the spot (as I have witnessed this happening before at this location).

1st page of PCN - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uCvdjW6TeB5kxionvxHnONowrGirKrf_/view

What should my next steps be?