Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Plywood-Enthusiast on June 14, 2024, 01:06:12 pm
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Thank you Hippocrates for your help with this. It was very kind of you.
I should have done the write up on this but failed to do so. Now I'm here one year on. ;D
I remember how nervous I was, never been to any tribunal or court or anything like that. Just a traffic tribnunal.
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Submissions
Verbal at hearing:
TSM Chapter One
1.3.2. In order to achieve safe and efficient operation of a highway network, it is essential that all signing provided is necessary, clear and unambiguous, and gives its message to road users at the appropriate time. The message must be quickly and easily understood at the point it is needed; neither too soon that the information might be forgotten, nor too late for the safe performance of any necessary manoeuvre.
TSM Chapter Three
1.8.6. There are likely to be some situations where two signs will still be preferable, such as on the side road at junctions, and where obstruction of a sign by other vehicles is possible. Drivers should not be placed in the situation where they might not see the sign before starting to turn at a road junction
Rejection of representations against penalty charge notice
3Where any representations are made under paragraph 1 above but the enforcing authority do not accept that a ground has been established, the notice served under sub-paragraph (7) of the said paragraph 1 (in this Schedule referred to as “the notice of rejection”) must—
(a)state that a charge certificate may be served under paragraph 5 below unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection—
(i)the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii)the person on whom the notice is served appeals to a traffic adjudicator against the penalty charge; and
(b)describe in general terms the form and manner in which such an appeal must be made,
and may contain such other information as the enforcing authority consider appropriate.
Written
Dear Sirs
I make these submissions on behalf of the appellant in support of having his appeal allowed:
1. Mr **** raised the issue of the video not showing the back of the signs allegedly passed. I cite from the council’s evidence as signed by officer *******: The Appellant's previous formal representation was made on the basis that the evidence does not show the infraction being made. The fixed camera only shows the back of the traffic sign, and it is not possible to determine what that sign is or said at the time. The Authority responded with a NoR (Notice of Rejection) explaining that the evidence shows the contravention did occur and that the signs were clear and compliant. Images of the signs at that location were supplied as supplementary evidence of this. With regard to the last sentence, the council provided two images dated 22nd February 2024. On this basis, therefore, as these photos are somewhat dated, Mr ***** decided to register his appeal. Nevertheless, the council now provides further images dated 5th April 2024 as supplementary evidence. I say that this clearly prejudices Mr ***** therefore.
2. Signage: Mr ***** says this: With regards to signage issues. While I accept now there are two signs on either side of the road on Grove Green Road. It is an advanced sign ahead of the road in question. There are no signs indicating a no left turn on Southwest road itself. if you miss the sign on Grove Green Road - you will not see any further warnings as you're turning into Southwest road. I recall the satnav directing me to turn left at short notice with a prompt like "turn left here". I wasn't sure if this was a road I can drive into because the pavement blended with the road, and the pavement ran across the entrance to southwest road. I needed to check this was drivable road for me so I glanced on either side of the road to look for signs and saw the lone one way road sign. I feel like there should be a repeater sign here on southwest road as the banned manoeuvre involves southwest road. If there was a no left turn sign there I would have seen this and avoided driving in. Please see the attached picture of Southwest Road.
3. The Notice of Rejection is defective in that it fails to mention that the Adjudicator is empowered to extend the period of time to register an appeal. In this regard I rely upon the following two cases and respective extracts: David Miller v London Borough of Barnet Case No: 217024143 in which Mr Chan said:
Mr Dishman makes a further submission in relation to the contents of the Notice of Rejection. In essence, he complains that it has not advised motorists contemplating an appeal to the Adjudicator that the Adjudicator may extend the time limit for an appeal. There is no requirement that the Notice must spell out the appeal process. It must however "describe in general terms the form and manner in which such an appeal must be made". I find that this must include a reference to the time limit and that it can be extended." I am not satisfied that the PCN can be upheld. I allow the appeal. And Shelley Sinclair v London Borough of Lewisham Case No: 218033612A in which Mr Walsh said with reference to the aforementioned case: The second alleged deficiency is that the Notice of Rejection does not expressly state that an adjudicator may extend the period of 28 days provided for lodging an appeal, as provided by Regulation 7(1)(b). It is right to say, of course, that Regulation 6 does not stipulate that it should. It is also right to say that the Notice of Rejection alludes to the power to extend the period, in that it states that a person who does not appeal within the period ‘may’ have missed the opportunity to appeal. I conclude, however, that a reasonable reader of the Notice of Rejection would be unlikely to conclude that an adjudicator had the power to extend the 28 day period. That discretionary power is, in my view, an important component of the appellate process and a power of which a potential appellant should be made aware. In the case of Miller v. London Borough of Barnet (2170241413, 21 June 2017), cited by Mrs Sinclair, my fellow adjudicator Mr. Chan held that it was essential that a Notice of Rejection describes the power of potential extension to the 28 day limit. He held that a Notice of Rejection that does not contains this detail does not describe in general terms the form and manner in which an appeal to an adjudicator must be made, in accordance with Regulation 6(1)(c). For the reasons I have given I agree with that decision which I consider highly persuasive.
3. In light of the above, I ask that the appeal be allowed.
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Outcome (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lWSWT_Ca1cuw83ey6X2skC5i6UH4Xh_g/view).
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Won. ;D Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away. ;D
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Sorted. relax as copied to WF too.
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Thank you both Hippocrates & cp.
I receive a reply via email from Hippocrates with a statment. But today is the deadline to file a statement I beleive. Not sure if it's working hours (up til 5pm) or up til midnight.
I had a look at the TMO and was hoping for some mistake in there. Maybe some technicality in the exemptions list. Perhaps something in section 66 or 67 of RTA 1984 but it I'm nor sure there is anything there.
Hippocrates kindly wrote out a full explantion of the old photos and the 217024143 & 218033612A
My 2 cents were to add this in:
With regards to signage issues. While I accept now there are two signs on either side of the road on Grove Green Road. It is an advanced sign ahead of the road in question. There are no signs indicating a no left turn on Southwest road itself. if you miss the sign on Grove Green Road - you will not see any further warnings as you're turning into Southwest road
I recall the satnav directing me to turn left at short notice with a prompt like "turn left here". I wasn't sure if this was a road I can drive into because the pavement blended with the road, and the pavement ran across the entrance to southwest road. I needed to check this was drivable road for me so I glanced on either side of the road to look for signs and saw the lone one way road sign. I feel like there should be a repeater sign there on southwest road as the banned manouvre involves southwest road. If there was a no left turn sign there I would have seen this and avoided driving in.
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For reference:
The Waltham Forest (Prescribed Routes) (Grove Green Road Region) (No. 1) Traffic Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GBbyOn7to15s3z4eMehhzTVU-z6LyVjy/view)
The Waltham Forest (Prescribed Routes) (Canberra Path No. 1) Traffic Order 2020 (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qxL8o3qKFeLNxZpxtdR3aJKIkhqoW0fM/view)
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1. Signage.
2. Dated photos on NOR then added as extra evidence photos taken on the date. >:(
3. Failure to mention extension of time: 2170241413 and 218033612A.
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The hearing may take place under his Plane Tree at present! Very hot out here.
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Thank you Hippocrates
Sorry for stalling this. I am really grateful for your offer of help with this.
I presumed I needed to kick off with a appeal with LT - which is why I took so long to respond because I was researching reasons
But as you have advised me I have just sent in the appeal requesting the evidence pack and naming yourself as the rep.
So far, no evidence pack has been made available after 10 days of submitting my LT appeal. The hearing is set for the 22nd.
The only evidence they have posted is the CCTV footage that was used in the original PCN (which is linked in the OP and does not show the sign).
Is there a deadline for them to submit the evidence pack by? If they don't do they forfeit the case? Now is a popular time for civil service to go on their annual leave, maybe the timing will work in my favour.
I wondering if appointing Hippocrates will get the council to drop the case... ;D
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I will PM the OP now to get the ball rolling.
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@Plywood-Enthusiast as @Hippocrates has offered to represent you, I suggest you ask him to file the appeal on your behalf.
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Sorry, I do not agree with your argument re the no left sign. But, their pictures are dated 22nd February so an adjudicator may consider them dated.
What I meant was, yes I see the no-left-turn signs on the video now. This video was taking after the incident. Not at the time of the incident using a headcam. The enforcements hours are 7am-7pm daily. So I went back after 7pm through the road againto capture the video.
At the time of the contravention. I was driving ahead for all intents and purposes. So the no left turn sign was not relevant to me. As I was driving satnav on the last moment diverted me to turn left. I did look into the road and check signs on either side of the road. There is no sign on the road itself. It's just a 1 way road sign. So I proceeded to drive over the pavement to contnue.
My appeal to Waltham forest below [I wrongfully assumed it was for not following the sign, and they CCTV did not show the sign]:
The evidence you have provided does not show any infraction being made.
Your camera is fixed in a position where it shows the BACK of your traffic sign. So you are not able to determine what that sign said at the time that my vehicle drove into the road.
If you have this evidence, I suggest you present it. Since it has not been presented, you cannot lawfully issue this PCN.
Secondly, I note that you only have one post with a sign (we have not determined what this sign says). The sign is on the nearside, which is the opposite side of the driver. The driver has a very narrow field of view to the nearside from the RHD driving position car. The sign is not visible to the driver when making the turn. There should be another sign on the other side of the road, so the driver can see the far side sign from their driving position.
It is always the case that these signs are placed on both sides of the road, and frequently placed further away from the adjoining road so the sign can be clearly visible.
I believe this sign was deliberately placed in this position to make it hard for drivers to see. Ironically, it seems the sign is also difficult for your camera to see, so you have no evidence of any infraction.
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https://bit.ly/2ALghSS
NOR observations correct re extension of time: 332 and 333.
The date argument vis a vis PCN and NOR will not fly.
https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/driversPOV.MOV
Sorry, I do not agree with your argument re the no left sign. But, their pictures are dated 22nd February so an adjudicator may consider them dated.
Usual advice: contravention did not occur and I will file full submissions upon receipt of the council's evidence pack PERSONAL hearing. Never a Thursday. The personal can by phone.
We need to see what you wrote. I am happy to represent you.
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Hello.
Help with this would be appreciated. I can't get hold of TMO it seems to have been in place just before waltham forest started to publish them online. There are gazzette notices there:
gazette 18month trial: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3266460
gazzette permanent: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3648941
Two cases have been won on tribunal but these seem to be very circumstantial 2190393323 2190545501
I am surprised at how few tribunal hearings for this there were given this was installed for 4 years now.
I'm not local to the area. Satnav diverted me trhough this road. I go by audio instruction and on the last second after I passed the no-left turn signs the satnav mustved asked me to turn left. Which I wasn't expecting. You can see on CCTV I was slowing down. I actually stopped to look for the sign because it was a connected pavement you have to drive over. It felt like I was driving over a pedestrian street or something. I glanced over to look for signs. I didn't see any prohibition. I saw the blue one way traffic sign which reassured me it was a road I can drive through.
I am not sure why they have no left turn signs so far ahead on the road. Why can't they put the no left on either side of the road on southwest road.
CCTV footage here: https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/noleft.mp4
Google maps here: https://maps.app.goo.gl/fRHUetHz7PXrP5Cg9
The sign does look visible on google maps.
This is my drivers POV video, you can see the no left turn sign dissapears from your field of view at least 10 meters before the turn as the signs are out of view: https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/driversPOV.MOV
The full scans below.
Known flaws
Going by known flaws on the spreadsheet it seems that NOR does not advise of tribnunals power to accept late appeal. WOuld that actuallt cancel the PCN?
Does not advise of tribunal's power to accept late appeal contrary to Shelley Sinclair v Lewisham
Secondly. the PCN uses discount/28 day deadline from date of notice. The notice of rejection uses the term date of service. Is the NOR non-compliant?
PCN
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+PCN_0001.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+PCN_0002.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+PCN_0003.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+PCN_0004.jpg)
NOR
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+NOR_0001.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+NOR_0002.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+NOR_0003.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+NOR_0004.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+NOR_0005.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+NOR_0006.jpg)
(https://forumshares.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/50Lwf/wf50L+NOR_0007.jpg)