Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: RhysGrif on June 13, 2024, 03:42:35 pm
-
How would that be possible, if my parking ticket was legitimate reason
It doesn't matter, the law says that if the council makes an excessive demand for money then the PCN must be cancelled regardless of whether it was rightly issued in the first place.
The first step is to make an out-of-time application to the traffic enforcement centre to get a revoking order, as the council has closed the case they are unlikely to oppose it.
Once the Traffic Enforcement Centre has issued a revoking order the council is required to refer the matter to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, where the matter would be dealt with as an ordinary appeal and as pointed out above, you have the council's admission that the charge certificate was served in error, so the appeal would be allowed on the ground that the penalty demanded exceeded the amount due by law.
These are the documents you need to file with the court:
Form TE9: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1094491/Parking_TE9.pdf (you will want to tick the box for "The penalty charge has been paid in full")
Form TE7: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62bebaeee90e073f56752a86/TE7_0622_save.pdf
Form TE9 is just a tick-box exercise, but form TE7 is not, so we need to help you with the wording. As a starting point (and to save me reading back through a six page thread), did you ever get to the bottom of why you didn't receive the charge certificate or the order for recovery? Is the address on the notice to owner 100% correct? and have you have any issues with post being misdelivered?
-
We wouldn't know, all we've seen is some black and white photos apparently embedded in a NTO of a car apparently on DYL.
Normally payment would close the case. But here IMO you have two potential approaches:
For us to look at the detail of the alleged contravention, including your reps and possibly the traffic order in order to get them to reopen the case with hard evidence in support of a winning argument. But I think you would get one shot at this. The intro to this could be that having had the opportunity to look into this matter further it would appear that the council's errors are not limited to [short resume of their post-payment enforcement] but include ......... and therefore as the council's attempts to extort penalties pre-date their later unlawful actions you would request that the penalty itself is repaid...
Compensation. For this IMO you would go above parking whose response was mealy-mouthed to say the least.
-
@RhysGrif do you want the original £70 back as well?
Hello,
How would that be possible, if my parking ticket was legitimate reason
-
@RhysGrif do you want the original £70 back as well?
+1
It seems silly not to as the council have gifted you such a confession.
-
@RhysGrif do you want the original £70 back as well?
-
Hello,
Sorry for vague response it’s a refund of the &464 paid to the bailiffs
-
Good, as expected except it's still a little cryptic as in a refund including or excluding the £70?
And does include the full £464 paid to the bailiff?
-
Good, as expected except it's still a little cryptic as in a refund including or excluding the £70?
-
Hello,
I’ve received my refund from the council
-
With respect, no
They do not need to submit an OOT.
It's not needed, it's down to whether RhysGrif wants to get the £70 back (which I think is a near certainty given a statutory ground of appeal is plainly made out). If an OOT is accepted by TEC, the council must refer the case to the adjudicator, regardless of what the council is or isn't trying to enforce.
@RhysGrif you might want to make an OOT application to TEC after you've got the initial refund back from the council.
-
Good news.
You still play a straight and polite bat, the process isn't concluded yet.
Thank you for your email dated **** acknowledging your error in this matter.
As you know, I had to pay your agents £****(the precise amount) in order to prevent my goods being seized. In order to bring financial closure to this part of the matter, this amount should be remitted by the council promptly and I do not think it unreasonable to ask for this to be paid within the next 7 working days from the date of this request. My bank details are as follows:
A/c name:
A/c number:
Sort code:
Thank you.
*- 7 working days is the same period given in a Notice of Enforcement( :). This gives a clear and in my experience achievable timeframe, but only if this is specifically 'owned' within the council and not subjected to the normal payment process.
Don't push your luck by trying to get your £70 refunded because you'd be mixing compensation with a refund. Keep them separate....which isn't to say we won't be returning to the matter.
No complaints, no recriminations......yet.
Hello,
UPDATE:
‘Good afternoon
Thank you for providing the information requested.
Your refund is currently being processed by our accounts team and will be credited to your account in due course.
Cofion/Regards‘
-
With respect, no
They do not need to submit an OOT.
The council have accepted payment of £70 in full, TEC have no role to play because nothing's being enforced. OP, TEC don't enforce, the council do and they've drawn stumps, so this part is over.
Don't complicate matters.
-
I would suggest you want to start drafting your OOT application. If you can get this accepted and the matter is referred to the tribunal, I have little doubt you can get the £70 refunded. Depending on how much of a fuss the council makes, you might even get a costs order.
Hello,
I am not sure I understand, I’m not having recovering the £70 for the PCN, I’m wanting to recover the £464 I’ve paid the bailiffs
As I said, you need to make an OOT application, it is now unlikely the council would bother to oppose it. You can't get anything for stress and inconvenience, but getting the £70 back without much difficulty.
-
Good news.
You still play a straight and polite bat, the process isn't concluded yet.
Thank you for your email dated **** acknowledging your error in this matter.
As you know, I had to pay your agents £****(the precise amount) in order to prevent my goods being seized. In order to bring financial closure to this part of the matter, this amount should be remitted by the council promptly and I do not think it unreasonable to ask for this to be paid within the next 7 working days from the date of this request. My bank details are as follows:
A/c name:
A/c number:
Sort code:
Thank you.
*- 7 working days is the same period given in a Notice of Enforcement( :). This gives a clear and in my experience achievable timeframe, but only if this is specifically 'owned' within the council and not subjected to the normal payment process.
Don't push your luck by trying to get your £70 refunded because you'd be mixing compensation with a refund. Keep them separate....which isn't to say we won't be returning to the matter.
No complaints, no recriminations......yet.
-
Mitigation indeed! They've likely just woken up to their errors and realised that you would certainly prevail if this case was ever to reach the Adjudicator.
You should write to the Council and demand, since they have now withdrawn their warrant, that they promptly repay the £464 in charges that you were forced to pay to the enforcement agents working on their behalf. Give them 7 days. Copy the enforcement agents.
Perhaps H C Andersen will put that in a more appropriate form of words, He's good at writing such letters.
Don't be surprised if Swansea write back and suggest you pursue the matter with the bailiff/enforcement agents. But be aware that it's the Council that is responsible to you. Whether they refund themselves or instruct their agents to refund is their problem, not yours.
And well done.
-
Hello,
In response to them confirming they’re in the wrong. What are my next steps for recovering my £464. And also, do I have any potential counter claims as their negligence has caused a lot of stress as I’m an apprentice so £464 is a lot of money
-
...............
Hello,
So I would I be correct in saying that they have confirmed that the document was posted on 26th and not 25th therefore giving me a 28 day period of 27th November due to the working day falling on the Monday.
Not the 27th Nov, the 28 day period ended Sunday the 26th Nov.
26/10/2023 = Thursday = Date of NTO = Date of Posting
30/10/2023 = Monday = 2nd working day after posting = Deemed date of service = Day 1 of 28
26/11/2023 = Sunday = Day 28 of 28 day relevant period = Payment of £70 made
@cp8759
Per the below. It's the additional £464 that he had to pay to the bailiff that he's trying to recover. The £70 paid to close the PCN would be a bonus, of course.
I would suggest you want to start drafting your OOT application. If you can get this accepted and the matter is referred to the tribunal, I have little doubt you can get the £70 refunded. Depending on how much of a fuss the council makes, you might even get a costs order.
Update:
‘Good Morning
Thank you for your email.
After a further review of your case and the mitigation you have described we can confirm that your case has been recalled from the Enforcement Agent and you payment of £70.00 has been accepted to close your case.
We hope that this assists with your enquiry and apologise for any inconvenience caused.
Cofion/Regards‘
-
I would suggest you want to start drafting your OOT application. If you can get this accepted and the matter is referred to the tribunal, I have little doubt you can get the £70 refunded. Depending on how much of a fuss the council makes, you might even get a costs order.
Hello,
I am not sure I understand, I’m not having recovering the £70 for the PCN, I’m wanting to recover the £464 I’ve paid the bailiffs
-
...............
Hello,
So I would I be correct in saying that they have confirmed that the document was posted on 26th and not 25th therefore giving me a 28 day period of 27th November due to the working day falling on the Monday.
Not the 27th Nov, the 28 day period ended Sunday the 26th Nov.
26/10/2023 = Thursday = Date of NTO = Date of Posting
30/10/2023 = Monday = 2nd working day after posting = Deemed date of service = Day 1 of 28
26/11/2023 = Sunday = Day 28 of 28 day relevant period = Payment of £70 made
@cp8759
Per the below. It's the additional £464 that he had to pay to the bailiff that he's trying to recover. The £70 paid to close the PCN would be a bonus, of course.
I would suggest you want to start drafting your OOT application. If you can get this accepted and the matter is referred to the tribunal, I have little doubt you can get the £70 refunded. Depending on how much of a fuss the council makes, you might even get a costs order.
Hello,
So therefore they’ve confirmed I’ve paid within the 28 day period as the document was posted on the 26th.
-
...............
Hello,
So I would I be correct in saying that they have confirmed that the document was posted on 26th and not 25th therefore giving me a 28 day period of 27th November due to the working day falling on the Monday.
Not the 27th Nov, the 28 day period ended Sunday the 26th Nov.
26/10/2023 = Thursday = Date of NTO = Date of Posting
30/10/2023 = Monday = 2nd working day after posting = Deemed date of service = Day 1 of 28
26/11/2023 = Sunday = Day 28 of 28 day relevant period = Payment of £70 made
@cp8759
Per the below. It's the additional £464 that he had to pay to the bailiff that he's trying to recover. The £70 paid to close the PCN would be a bonus, of course.
I would suggest you want to start drafting your OOT application. If you can get this accepted and the matter is referred to the tribunal, I have little doubt you can get the £70 refunded. Depending on how much of a fuss the council makes, you might even get a costs order.
-
I would suggest you want to start drafting your OOT application. If you can get this accepted and the matter is referred to the tribunal, I have little doubt you can get the £70 refunded. Depending on how much of a fuss the council makes, you might even get a costs order.
-
Great news.
Write back.
Thank them for replying so quickly and clarifying that a NTO was posted on THURSDAY 26 October 2023. However, you can see that the error made by the authority in 2023 has been repeated in their last reply with their inability to calculate 28-day periods as follows:
Date of posting: Thursday 26 Oct.
Date deemed served: Monday 30th October.
Latest date of the 28-day period beginning on date of service: Sun. 26th Nov. and not 25 Nov. as stated by the council.
You would ask that the authority consider their position in this matter and accept that payment of £70 (which the council acknowledge was made on 26 Nov.) discharges the owner's legal obligation in this matter.
Hello,
So I would I be correct in saying that they have confirmed that the document was posted on 26th and not 25th therefore giving me a 28 day period of 27th November due to the working day falling on the Monday.
-
Great news.
Write back.
Thank them for replying so quickly and clarifying that a NTO was posted on THURSDAY 26 October 2023. However, you can see that the error made by the authority in 2023 has been repeated in their last reply with their inability to calculate 28-day periods as follows:
Date of posting: Thursday 26 Oct.
Date deemed served: Monday 30th October.
Latest date of the 28-day period beginning on date of service: Sun. 26th Nov. and not 25 Nov. as stated by the council.
You would ask that the authority consider their position in this matter and accept that payment of £70 (which the council acknowledge was made on 26 Nov.) discharges the owner's legal obligation in this matter.
-
So the key point is what did their system ask for when you made payment ? Their not printing the NtO on their first attempt hints at system problems.
-
Hello,
Swansea council have sent me the following:
‘Good afternoon
Thank you for your email.
We have reviewed your case and can confirm the following:
A Notice to Owner was sent for printing and posting on 25/10/2023 however, due to an internal issue it appears that the documentation failed to print. For this reason, the Notice to Owner was requeued and subsequently printed and posted on 26/10/2023 to the address provided to us by the DVLA as being that of the registered keeper, which was still within the legal timescales to serve a Notice to Owner.
The Notice to Owner documentation advised that a payment of £70.00 was outstanding to be paid within 28 days of the date the Notice was deemed served, which in this case was no later than 25/11/2023. The Notice also advised that failure to make payment before the end of the 28 days period would result in the penalty increasing by 50% taking the total to £105.00.
Due to a payment of £70.00 not being received until 26/11/2024 which was after the 28 day period, the case progressed as an underpayment and we issued a Charge Certificate requesting the outstanding balance of £35.00 (£105.00 minus £70.00 received).
As no further payment or correspondence was received in response to the Charge Certificate, the case continued to progress and we issued an Order for Recovery (TE3 TE9) on 20/12/2023 which incurred further charges.
Due to no payment or completion of the TE3 and TE9 being made within the statutory timescales the case was registered for a warrant of control and was subsequently passed to Andrew James Enforcement on 09/02/2024 to recover the outstanding debt plus Enforcement Fees.
Having reviewed your case in full Swansea Council are satisfied that no procedural impropriety has occurred and that the case has progressed correctly. For this reason, we regret that we will be unable to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery or recall the case from the Enforcement Agent and issue any refunds of payments made.
Your only options at this late stage are to either, lodge an Out Of Time Witness Statement with the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) for your case to be reviewed by a Court Officer if one of the four options on the witness statement apply to your case or your case will remain closed as full payment has now been received by the Agent.
Here are the four options you could choose from:
* I did not receive the Notice to Owner / Penalty Charge Notice
* I appealed against the Local Authority’s decision to reject my representation, within 28 days of service of the rejection notice, but have had no response.
* I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice.
* The Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full.
To request the relevant documentation to lodge an Out of Time Witness Statement you would be required to contact TEC on 0300 123 1059 (select option 6) or download the relevant forms (TE7 & TE9) online at www.gov.uk (see direct links below)
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-te9-witness-statement-unpaid-penalty-charge-parking
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-te7-application-to-file-a-statement-out-of-time-extension-of-time-parking
The completed forms must be returned to the Traffic Enforcement Centre at the address they provide or via email to tec@justice.gov.uk .
Where possible we would request that you please provide supporting documentary evidence with your statement.
Once we are in receipt of notification from TEC that an Out Of Time Witness Statement has been lodged on this case, we will place the case on hold until a decision has been made regarding this matter.
Please be advised, should no action be taken, the case will remain active with the Enforcement Agent and further charges may be incurred.
Cofion/Regards’
-
OP, it's not really 'either' 'or'
You have paid the debt and this closes procedural matters unless you re-open them by submitting an OOT. There is no set time for this.
So, you could write to the authority and give them, say, 7 days in which to confirm that the sums paid to the enforcement agents will be refunded in full failing which you would submit an OOT. TEC's normal practice is to accept an OOT unless the authority object.
I see 3 scenarios:
1. They realise their error and refund the debt.
2. They continue to act as if they were judges in their own cause and do not comply and object to your OOT, which would probably be refused;
3. They do nothing.
1. They save themselves embarrassment which would arise with an adjudication hearing.
2. You receive their objection and raise the matter through the council's complaints procedure. IMO, an objection in light of the irrefutable facts puts them in the realm of failure to comply with their public law duty to act fairly and has nothing to do with enforcement of road traffic contraventions.
3. TEC approve your OOT at which point the authority must refer the matter to the adjudicator and any hearing would IMO carpet them for abusing their power.
My draft would need amending depending on which route you choose to take, I leave this to you.
Hello,
I have contact swansea council for an email address for their parking services depart as I can't find one online. I will contact them and then if that fails fill out an OOT
-
However, slightest possibility there is a street 10 mins away from my address which ends in ‘Street’ and my address ends in ‘Road’. Both address have same name and same 4 starting post codes ‘**11’
My house has received postage from similar street name before so it’s not an impossible scenario.
Have you got any evidence of this, such as misdelivered letters for the other address? Have you ever made a complaint to Royal Mail about this?
I'm Neil's colleague who was meant to look at this a few evenings ago, unfortunately I've only just got to this. What strikes me here is that the key reason why the various statutory notices have gone missing has not been established, and the all the documents were posted to the same exact address as given on the V5C, then an OOT is more likely than not to be rejected. You can of course hope that the council simply doesn't object, but if they do then you'd be in a spot of bother as you'd have to risk more money to request a review by a district judge.
TLDR: The fact that the council is very, very wrong does not mean they won't successfully object to the OOT.
-
I'd pursue both routes. The longer the delay with submitting the OOT, as that is the procedure the law provides for the circumstances, the more chance there is that the Council will claim that the PCN has been closed by the OP.
It's always best with Councils and PCNs to follow the defined procedures.
It's true that the Council might well oppose your OOT. However the processing of your OOT at the TEC is liable to take at least two and as much as eight weeks. Sending the complaint to the Council should be processed faster than that.
The wording on the OOT application needs to be optimised.
Assuming the OOT is granted then the Order for Recovery would be revoked and the Charge Cert cancelled. Since the PCN itself has been paid the matter should be closed. I'm not sure that the case would be referred to the Adjudicator. Only perhaps if the Council continue to claim that payment was late.
-
OP, it's not really 'either' 'or'
You have paid the debt and this closes procedural matters unless you re-open them by submitting an OOT. There is no set time for this.
So, you could write to the authority and give them, say, 7 days in which to confirm that the sums paid to the enforcement agents will be refunded in full failing which you would submit an OOT. TEC's normal practice is to accept an OOT unless the authority object.
I see 3 scenarios:
1. They realise their error and refund the debt.
2. They continue to act as if they were judges in their own cause and do not comply and object to your OOT, which would probably be refused;
3. They do nothing.
1. They save themselves embarrassment which would arise with an adjudication hearing.
2. You receive their objection and raise the matter through the council's complaints procedure. IMO, an objection in light of the irrefutable facts puts them in the realm of failure to comply with their public law duty to act fairly and has nothing to do with enforcement of road traffic contraventions.
3. TEC approve your OOT at which point the authority must refer the matter to the adjudicator and any hearing would IMO carpet them for abusing their power.
My draft would need amending depending on which route you choose to take, I leave this to you.
-
You may revise the wording of the communication to ensure it can be used as evidence if the council does not cooperate and you need to present this letter to the Ombudsman or make a claim for a breach.
Dear Parking Services
I refer to the above matter and the applicable PCN enforcement timetable you recently provided. I emphasise that this is your evidence.
My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now compounded by my annoyance at the council's blatantly unlawful demand, which should have been evident with proper oversight. Your timeline is attached, from which I have concluded the following:
An entry indicates that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was dated and posted on 25 Oct.
Another entry shows a second NTO was produced, dated, and posted on 26 Oct.
An entry states a Charge Certificate (CC) was produced, dated, and posted on 27 Nov.
An entry shows payment of £70 received on 27 Nov.
An entry shows a CC posted on 27 Nov., citing and relying upon the NTO issued on 26 Oct., which, based on the council's evidence, was an unlawful notice.
A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. is provided in the council's evidence.
A copy of a receipt issued by the Council for payment of £70 dated 26 November 2023.
The following points are evident from the above:
a. The unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC (posted on 27 Nov.) was served.
c. The council acted unlawfully by refusing payment of the extant, unsurcharged penalty on 27 Nov.
d and pursuing the owner based on an unlawful NTO and CC.
The Enforcement Agent has taken an unlawful money transfer of £514 under the pain of removing my car. I will now file an Out of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
Given the council's actions to date, I expect a successful outcome and anticipate that the council will not object to my application. However, considering the above, it would be in the authority's best interest to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery now rather than referring the matter to the adjudicator.
In this context, having been made aware of your actions, should the council object to my submission and it be refused, I will refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and, if necessary, the Ombudsman. Such action could only be seen as a failure to discharge the council's public duty to act fairly and reasonably.
My bank details for the return of the money are as follows [provide bank details here]. Once the money is returned, I will consider the matter solved.
I have copied your enforcement agent for their information.
Hello,
Am I sending an email to Swansea Council & sending the ‘OOT’ & ‘Witness Statement’ to the TEC
-
You may revise the wording of the communication to ensure it can be used as evidence if the council does not cooperate and you need to present this letter to the Ombudsman or make a claim for a breach.
Dear Parking Services
I refer to the above matter and the applicable PCN enforcement timetable you recently provided. I emphasise that this is your evidence.
My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now compounded by my annoyance at the council's blatantly unlawful demand, which should have been evident with proper oversight. Your timeline is attached, from which I have concluded the following:
An entry indicates that a Notice to Owner (NTO) was dated and posted on 25 Oct.
Another entry shows a second NTO was produced, dated, and posted on 26 Oct.
An entry states a Charge Certificate (CC) was produced, dated, and posted on 27 Nov.
An entry shows payment of £70 received on 27 Nov.
An entry shows a CC posted on 27 Nov., citing and relying upon the NTO issued on 26 Oct., which, based on the council's evidence, was an unlawful notice.
A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. is provided in the council's evidence.
A copy of a receipt issued by the Council for payment of £70 dated 26 November 2023.
The following points are evident from the above:
a. The unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC (posted on 27 Nov.) was served.
c. The council acted unlawfully by refusing payment of the extant, unsurcharged penalty on 27 Nov.
d and pursuing the owner based on an unlawful NTO and CC.
The Enforcement Agent has taken an unlawful money transfer of £514 under the pain of removing my car. I will now file an Out of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre.
Given the council's actions to date, I expect a successful outcome and anticipate that the council will not object to my application. However, considering the above, it would be in the authority's best interest to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery now rather than referring the matter to the adjudicator.
In this context, having been made aware of your actions, should the council object to my submission and it be refused, I will refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and, if necessary, the Ombudsman. Such action could only be seen as a failure to discharge the council's public duty to act fairly and reasonably.
My bank details for the return of the money are as follows [provide bank details here]. Once the money is returned, I will consider the matter solved.
I have copied your enforcement agent for their information.
-
I would add an item between 3 & 4. Or perhaps put it at 7.
"A copy of a receipt, issued by the Council, for payment of £70 dated the 26 Nov".
The OP can't be held responsible for delays in applying payments to the PCN account. The charge was paid on the 26th. The OP has told us that his bank statement also says the 26th.
The Council only became entitled to issue a Charge Certificate on the 27th Nov, if they believe the payment was late. They should have ensured that any payments already made were applied before they did so. The CC as issued, but not received, says £105.
-
I suggest you do both i.e. submit an OOT and write to the council.
I have prepared a draft for comment.
Head of Parking Services
Swansea *****
******
PCN - ************
I refer to the above and the applicable PCN enforcement timetable which you recently provided. I stress this is your evidence.
My frustration at being pursued for a penalty is now matched by my annoyance that a blatantly unlawful demand is being made by the council, which situation should have been clear to anyone who cared to exercise proper oversight of the process. Your timeline is attached from which I have drawn the following:
1. An entry to the effect that a NTO was dated and posted 25 Oct.
2. An entry to the effect that another NTO was produced, dated and posted on 26 Oct.
3. An entry to the effect that a CC was produced dated and posted on 27 Nov.
4. An entry showing payment of £70 received 27Nov.
5. An entry showing a CC posted 27th Nov. which cited and relied upon the NTO issued 26 Oct. which on the basis of the council's evidence was an unlawful notice.
6. A copy of the NTO dated 26 Oct. provided in the council's evidence.
From the above the following are apparent:
a. Unlawful act of issuing a second NTO on 26 Oct.
b. Even if the CC was legitimate, the council's legal right to demand the surcharge penalty arose only on 29 Nov. when the CC (posted on 27 Nov.) was served;
c. The council acted unlawfully when they refused payment of the extant, unsurcharged, penalty on 27 Nov.
d. Pursuing the owner on the basis of an unlawful NTO and CC.
I have paid the Enforcement Agent's unlawful demand only in order to prevent my car being removed and I shall now submit an Out of Time application to the Traffic Enforcement Centre. Given the council's actions to date, I anticipate that I shall be successful and that the council would not object to my application. However, given the above the authority might consider it prudent to cancel the Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery now rather than have to refer the matter to the adjudicator.
In this respect, having been apprised of your actions should the council object to my submission and should this be refused then I would refer this matter to your Complaints Procedure and, should it be necessary, the Ombudsman because such an action could only be seen as a failure to discharge the council's public duty to act fairly and reasonably.
I have copied this letter to your Enforcement Agents for information.
YF
-
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters not.
If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served (which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it, there is no further penalty to pay.
It's the law.
Really that's a point for the Adjudicator, assuming the case ever gets to the Adjudicator. Which seems unlikely as the PCN was fully paid and should have been closed.
Right now the issue is how to word the Out of Time application to ensure that it gets accepted, and no review will be required. So that the OP can recover the £464 already paid to the bailiff.
The Witness Statement has a box to tick to the effect that payment was made, when, how, to whom. The court officer won't be interested in the lawfulness or otherwise of the Penalty Charge, only whether the OP has a valid reason for being late with the Witness Statement. And whether the payment was made within the 28 day relevant period or not.
The OP is late because he believed his in-time payment had closed the case. He did not receive any Charge Certificate or an Order for Recovery that would have informed him that the matter was not closed. And hence did not know that a Witness Statement was required.
Hello,
Where do I go from here. Do I have to fill out the ‘Out of Time’ document & ‘Witness statement’
-
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters not.
If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served (which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it, there is no further penalty to pay.
It's the law.
Really that's a point for the Adjudicator, assuming the case ever gets to the Adjudicator. Which seems unlikely as the PCN was fully paid and should have been closed.
Right now the issue is how to word the Out of Time application to ensure that it gets accepted, and no review will be required. So that the OP can recover the £464 already paid to the bailiff.
The Witness Statement has a box to tick to the effect that payment was made, when, how, to whom. The court officer won't be interested in the lawfulness or otherwise of the Penalty Charge, only whether the OP has a valid reason for being late with the Witness Statement. And whether the payment was made within the 28 day relevant period or not.
The OP is late because he believed his in-time payment had closed the case. He did not receive any Charge Certificate or an Order for Recovery that would have informed him that the matter was not closed. And hence did not know that a Witness Statement was required.
-
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters not.
If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served (which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it, there is no further penalty to pay.
It's the law.
Hello,
Yes the penalty was paid on the 26th. I have the receipt and the payment on my card transaction.
Could you please advise what my next steps are?
-
For fear of sounding like a record stuck in a groove, it matters not.
If the full penalty of £70 was paid before a CC was served (which the council's evidence shows is the case) then that's it, there is no further penalty to pay.
It's the law.
-
In case it disappears from ibb
(https://i.ibb.co/MPTFDPg/nto.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wpH5Npd)
-
Hello,
I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it won't be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found my original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.
Based on their document though, their charge certificate documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated 26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in 28 day period starting on the 30th.
Actually the Charge Cert doesn't say that the NTO was dated the 26/10. It says the NTO was served on the 26/10/2023.
Date served has a different meaning to the date of issue or date of posting. Served is the date the document arrived with you. In this case it's deemed to be the 2nd working day after the notice was posted. And in this case the notice is supposed to be posted the same day as it was issued. So issued and posted on the 26/10/2023. Hence served on the 30/10/2023 which is the second working day after posting. So the date served on the Charge Cert is incorrect and misleading. Not to mention adding unnecessary confusion.
It would be helpful to be able to prove that the NTO you received is dated the 26/10/2023. So please try and find the NTO.
Hello,
After tipping my room upside down i've found the original nto i've linked it below.
https://ibb.co/wpH5Npd
-
Hello,
I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it won't be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found my original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.
Based on their document though, their charge certificate documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated 26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in 28 day period starting on the 30th.
Actually the Charge Cert doesn't say that the NTO was dated the 26/10. It says the NTO was served on the 26/10/2023.
Date served has a different meaning to the date of issue or date of posting. Served is the date the document arrived with you. In this case it's deemed to be the 2nd working day after the notice was posted. And in this case the notice is supposed to be posted the same day as it was issued. So issued and posted on the 26/10/2023. Hence served on the 30/10/2023 which is the second working day after posting. So the date served on the Charge Cert is incorrect and misleading. Not to mention adding unnecessary confusion.
It would be helpful to be able to prove that the NTO you received is dated the 26/10/2023. So please try and find the NTO.
-
I would just add to HCA's response above.
The copy of the NTO visible in the spaghetti of the posted documents is dated the 26th Oct 2023. There isn't one dated the 25th Oct albeit the case progression suggests that one was printed and posted on the 25th Oct.
&
The receipt for the payment of £70 on the 26th Nov 2023 appears to be an email receipt from Swansea. So their own payment system confirms that the payment was made on the 26th Nov.
@RhysGrif It would be helpful if can dig out the Notice to Owner that you seem to have received and confirm the date of issue? IE the document from which you deduced that the payment deadline was the 26th Nov 2023. Better yet post up the NTO so we can check it properly.
@RhysGrif what leads you to believe you "appealed" and were rejected? There is no mention in the case progression history of any informal or formal representations (challenges) against the PCN or the NTO. So there is no rejection letter.
Hello,
I will attempt to find the NTO however, I will say that it won't be likely as that document is 7+ months old, I only found my original PCN by chance that it was still in my draw.
Based on their document though, their charge certificate documents that the NTO was dated the 26/10 therefore wouldn't that double up on the conclusion that the document was dated 26/10 but the second working day falls on a weekend resulting in 28 day period ending on the 30th.
-
I also note that the Charge Certificate mentions an NTO served on the 26th Oct, which isn't correct even if the NTO was printed and posted on the 25th Oct.
However right now the issue is the wording to be used on the OP's Out of Time application. A valid reason for being late with the Witness Statement. If that is successful then the £464 paid to the bailiff should be refunded. If not successful, then an N244 review will be required at further expense.
I doubt if the case will reach the Adjudicator as an appeal since the OP paid the PCN and that should have closed the case.
Witness Statement TE9 (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62e1492bd3bf7f2d789b8d7e/Parking_TE9.pdf)
Out of Time application TE7
(https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/62bebaeee90e073f56752a86/TE7_0622_save.pdf)
Here is a draft of what could go into the TE7 OOT. Please wait for others to comment. The objective is to keep it simple.
This Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full and within the time limit. I received an email payment receipt dated the 26th Nov 2023, copy included below.
I did not receive any further correspondence or notices from the Council indicating that the Penalty Charge remained unsatisfied. In particular I did not receive an Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charge and was consequently unaware of the need to submit a Witness Statement, within the time limit, to the effect that the Penalty Charge Notice had been paid.
The Penalty Charge Notice was paid in full within the 28 days (beginning with the date of service) permitted by the Notice to Owner dated and posted the 26th Oct 2023 and thus deemed served on the 30th Oct 2023.
-
All that's true and hammers more nails into their coffin.
However, whether one or more NTOs were issued at any time isn't the killer, it's that the lawful penalty may only be a max. of £70 unless a CC is served. NOT issued, but served.
And the CC in evidence was posted on 27 Nov. therefore served 29th.
The council MUST BY LAW accept the penalty of £70 before this date.
-
I would just add to HCA's response above.
The copy of the NTO visible in the spaghetti of the posted documents is dated the 26th Oct 2023. There isn't one dated the 25th Oct albeit the case progression suggests that one was printed and posted on the 25th Oct.
&
The receipt for the payment of £70 on the 26th Nov 2023 appears to be an email receipt from Swansea. So their own payment system confirms that the payment was made on the 26th Nov.
@RhysGrif It would be helpful if can dig out the Notice to Owner that you seem to have received and confirm the date of issue? IE the document from which you deduced that the payment deadline was the 26th Nov 2023. Better yet post up the NTO so we can check it properly.
@RhysGrif what leads you to believe you "appealed" and were rejected? There is no mention in the case progression history of any informal or formal representations (challenges) against the PCN or the NTO. So there is no rejection letter.
-
OP, let me attempt to simplify this for you.
Despite your contradictory statements e.g. references to 'your parents' address, which is where you live permanently, and Enceladus' attempt to get a straight answer to whether you received a NTO which you responded to by showing docs issued by the council (issuing and service being different) etc. now that we've seen the NTO and the council's PCN timeline IMO this case is essentially very simple.
The council's PCN timeline evidence shows:
An entry to the effect that a NTO was dated and posted 25 Oct.
An entry to the effect that another NTO was produced, dated and posted on 26 Oct. (which in law was deemed served Mon. 30th and which in law prevented the authority from applying the surcharge until 27 Nov.)(and which was unlawful if indeed they'd issued another on 25th)
An entry to the effect that a CC was produced dated and posted on 27 Nov.
An entry showing payment of £70 received 27Nov.
An entry showing a CC posted 27th Nov.
A separate response to you stating payment made 26 Nov.
Even shorter version:
CC issued 27 Nov. Served 29th on which date and on which date ONLY you were liable for the increased penalty. You are NOT liable simply because a 28-day target was exceeded, this only permits them to serve a CC.
Write to the morons and set out your conditions for not going public with their stupidity and unlawful actions:
1. Cancel PCN;
2. Apology;
3. An undertaking to review their procedures.
Wait for others.
-
26/10/2023 = Thurs = Date of NTO & presumed date of posting
30/10/2023 = Mon = 2nd working day after posting & deemed date of service = day 1 of 28 day period
26/11/2023 = Sun = Day 28 of 28 day period = date of payment made
So the payment was made in-time.
This is further supported by the OP's statement that the Council's payment system only asked for £70 when he made the payment. The Charge Certificate had not yet been issued so the payment demanded hadn't yet incremented.
The case progression history tells us that the Charge Cert was issued on Monday the 27th Nov 2023 at 10:52. However the £70 payment was only credited to the account at 21:30 on Monday the 27th Nov 2023.
So I would say you can legitimately submit a Witness Statement and Out of Time application as you have a receipt that shows payment was actually made at 17:33:45 on Sun 26th Nov 2023, using the ground "The penalty charge has been paid in full".
However please don't submit anything until we have the facts clear. You only have one shot at getting this right.
The case progression does not mention any representations or a Notice of Rejection. The OP has told us "I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN." This remains unexplained.
The OP denies receipt of the Charge Cert of the 27th Nov 2023 and the Order for Recovery posted on the 20th Dec 2023.
Hello,
I always have the payment via my bank logged at the same time as the receipt.
I’m sure that I appealed the parking ticket however the NtO, I had seen and that document looks familiar which is why my payment is 28 days based on that document date.
But I have not seen the charge certificate & the NfR.
-
26/10/2023 = Thurs = Date of NTO & presumed date of posting
30/10/2023 = Mon = 2nd working day after posting & deemed date of service = day 1 of 28 day period
26/11/2023 = Sun = Day 28 of 28 day period = date of payment made
So the payment was made in-time.
This is further supported by the OP's statement that the Council's payment system only asked for £70 when he made the payment. The Charge Certificate had not yet been issued so the payment demanded hadn't yet incremented.
The case progression history tells us that the Charge Cert was issued on Monday the 27th Nov 2023 at 10:52. However the £70 payment was only credited to the account at 21:30 on Monday the 27th Nov 2023.
So I would say you can legitimately submit a Witness Statement and Out of Time application as you have a receipt that shows payment was actually made at 17:33:45 on Sun 26th Nov 2023, using the ground "The penalty charge has been paid in full".
However please don't submit anything until we have the facts clear. You only have one shot at getting this right.
The case progression does not mention any representations or a Notice of Rejection. The OP has told us "I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN." This remains unexplained.
The OP denies receipt of the Charge Cert of the 27th Nov 2023 and the Order for Recovery posted on the 20th Dec 2023.
-
Out of time and Order for Recovery.
And the answer to my question is?
Hello,
I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work. However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate' document in my life.
We've both been doing this for too many years than we care to recall. You wouldn't believ how many times that we've queried address details to later be told "oh the road name is wrong but I didn't think it mattered", often when it seriously affects the likely outcome of a case.
I asked you to compare the address on the notices to your V5C; did you really do that.
These things can boil down to just one digit or letter being wrong anywhere, even the general format of layout of the address. So tell me again that you've really looked in detail ---- because, while you have a strong technical chance of success, this is still crucial to any court application you may make.
Hello,
I have compared the V5C & the document that Swansea council attached in the file & both addresses match.
However, slightest possibility there is a street 10 mins away from my address which ends in ‘Street’ and my address ends in ‘Road’. Both address have same name and same 4 starting post codes ‘**11’
My house has received postage from similar street name before so it’s not an impossible scenario.
-
Out of time and Order for Recovery.
And the answer to my question is?
Hello,
I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work. However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate' document in my life.
We've both been doing this for too many years than we care to recall. You wouldn't believ how many times that we've queried address details to later be told "oh the road name is wrong but I didn't think it mattered", often when it seriously affects the likely outcome of a case.
I asked you to compare the address on the notices to your V5C; did you really do that.
These things can boil down to just one digit or letter being wrong anywhere, even the general format of layout of the address. So tell me again that you've really looked in detail ---- because, while you have a strong technical chance of success, this is still crucial to any court application you may make.
-
Out of time and Order for Recovery.
And the answer to my question is?
Hello,
I wasn't on any holidays if that's what you mean. I live permanently at this address, so would've been home or in work. However, I have never seen this 'OfR' or 'Charge Certificate' document in my life.
-
Out of time and Order for Recovery.
And the answer to my question is?
-
Their evidence:
A NTO with date of posting of 26 Oct 2023. A Thursday.
A NTO issued pursuant to the Civil Enforcement etc. Wales Regs 2013 which provides:
Unless the contrary is proved, service of a notice or charge certificate contained in a letter sent by first class post which has been properly addressed, pre-paid and posted is to be taken to have been effected on the second working day after the day of posting.
(3) In paragraph (2), “working day” means any day except-
(a)a Saturday or a Sunday;
The purported 'Date of Service' in the NTO is Saturday 28th Oct. This cannot be.
The date of service in law was 30 Oct. which gives a latest date for payment of 27 Nov.
So you have valid grounds for a WS.
But OP, your OOT reasons need to convince, but so far my reading is that they don't.
As I understand it, you live with your parents and it is their address which you've given to DVLA - perfectly proper because you live there.
So, were you actually at home when the OfR was delivered?
Hello,
Yes I thought that the 28 day period would not include weekends and it would only be valid for 28 working days.
What is the 'OOT' & 'OfR'
-
Their evidence:
A NTO with date of posting of 26 Oct 2023. A Thursday.
A NTO issued pursuant to the Civil Enforcement etc. Wales Regs 2013 which provides:
Unless the contrary is proved, service of a notice or charge certificate contained in a letter sent by first class post which has been properly addressed, pre-paid and posted is to be taken to have been effected on the second working day after the day of posting.
(3) In paragraph (2), “working day” means any day except-
(a)a Saturday or a Sunday;
The purported 'Date of Service' in the NTO is Saturday 28th Oct. This cannot be.
The date of service in law was 30 Oct. which gives a latest date for payment of 27 Nov.
So you have valid grounds for a WS.
But OP, your OOT reasons need to convince, but so far my reading is that they don't.
As I understand it, you live with your parents and it is their address which you've given to DVLA - perfectly proper because you live there.
So, were you actually at home when the OfR was delivered?
-
Have you also checked, in detail, the address on those council notices?
Hello,
My address is correct on the notes however
Really? So how did so many notices go missing and yet the bailiff notices didn't??
Hello,
It does sound extremely far fetched however, I have and can 100% confidently say that I have never received or seen the 'Charge Certificate' & 'TE3 Order For Recovery' from the council. The PDF file is the first time that I have seen these documents. Hence, why I am only now joining this forum and asking for advice as I have not known any of this information.
-
Have you also checked, in detail, the address on those council notices?
I have the receipt of my payment that was made on the 26/11 17:30.
So for completeness, can we see that please.
One of my colleagues is going to be looking at your case later tonight.
Hello,
I've attached the receipt image for my payment from Swansea council.
https://ibb.co/g7VLwrD
-
Have you also checked, in detail, the address on those council notices?
Hello,
My address is correct on the notes however
Really? So how did so many notices go missing and yet the bailiff notices didn't??
-
Have you also checked, in detail, the address on those council notices?
I have the receipt of my payment that was made on the 26/11 17:30.
So for completeness, can we see that please.
One of my colleagues is going to be looking at your case later tonight.
-
Have you also checked, in detail, the address on those council notices?
Hello,
My address is correct on the notes however, I have noticed page 4 & 8 of the documents their system have registered the payment being received at 27/11 21:30. I have the receipt of my payment that was made on the 26/11 17:30.
-
That tells me, from a brief glance, that your deadline for payment was actually the 26th!
So the date that I paid my PCN?
You don't rush into anything yet!
Have you actually paid the bailiff?
Hello,
Yes as my car was clamped at 6:20 in the morning first thing yesterday. I didn't expect them to come back so soon as I don't understand the process of all this. This is the first parking ticket I've ever had.
-
Have you also checked, in detail, the address on those council notices?
-
That tells me, from a brief glance, that your deadline for payment was actually the 26th!
So the date that I paid my PCN?
You don't rush into anything yet!
Have you actually paid the bailiff?
-
That tells me, from a brief glance, that your deadline for payment was actually the 26th!
So the date that I paid my PCN?
-
That tells me, from a brief glance, that your deadline for payment was actually the 26th!
-
Hello,
I requested the files that Swansea Council have on my PCN number and have received a file that I have posted below. Along with the two letters I received from the enforcement agency.
Enforcement letter(s) - https://ibb.co/album/xhN70Q
Swansea Council (Sort images by oldedst) - https://ibb.co/album/p2jfbW
-
Did you receive a Notice to Owner, prior to the 25th of November 2023 or not?
You say you appealed, I assume that means you wrote to the Council. Please post up the response.
Hello.
I requested my data from Swansea council for all information to do with my PCN. I have now received a 44 page document of all information attached. Do you want me to show
-
Did you receive a Notice to Owner, prior to the 25th of November 2023 or not?
You say you appealed, I assume that means you wrote to the Council. Please post up the response.
-
Yeah, you're missing a lot of paperwork here. That makes it hard to give you good advice, because timing is crucial here.
If you don't pay a Penalty Charge Notice on time, they send you a letter called a Charge Certificate that increases the amount you owe by 50%.
You say that you paid them the £70 that was due. The council are saying it had gone up by that point, and you actually owed £105.
If you pay less than the amount that's due, the council are allowed to keep it as part-payment and chase you for the rest.
They registered a debt of £44 against you. That's the £35 they're saying you still owe, plus the £9 court registration fee.
The bailiffs got involved, and sent you a letter. That adds £75 onto the amount owed. That almost triples it, taking the total to £119.
The bailiffs had to come knocking on your door. That adds £235 in enforcement costs to the amount owed, tripling it again and taking it to £354.
If they visit you again and actually take steps to remove goods (your car), it will add another £110 on, taking you to £464.
They're saying that this is justified, because you missed the deadline to pay £70 by one day. We can't tell you if they're right or wrong, because we'd need to know the date of service on the Notice to Owner and the Charge Certificate - two pieces of paperwork that you don't have.
In fact, you seem to be missing a lot of paperwork. In addition to the Notice to Owner and Charge Certificate from the council, you should have an Order for Recovery from a court in Northampton and a Notice of Enforcement from the bailiffs as well. Sometimes post goes wrong and people don't receive one of these letters. But you're missing all of them.
You say your V5C is up-to-date and has the correct address, but when did you update it? The V5C should have a date of issue on the front page. Did you by any chance update it after September last year?
You should stop having back-and-forth emails with the bailiffs. They won't back down and it won't delay them from coming to visit you again. They have been instructed to collect a debt on behalf of a council, and they won't stop until they either get the money, or the council calls them off. Also, they don't need to give you any proof. Penalty Charge Notices are dealt with by a special court in Northampton. Unless you fill out a certain form and post it back by a certain deadline, the court automatically sides with the council and gives them permission to send bailiffs after you. This has already happened to you. The bailiffs have a warrant dated February 2024.
If I were you, I would phone the council. Act confused (but polite). Say you've paid it in full but you're still receiving demands. It's a gamble, it might not work. But you might get through to a nice person who's in a good mood that day and decides paying £70 a day late is good enough and closes the case, calling off the bailiffs. If that doesn't work, ask them to send you copies of the paperwork. You really need the dates for the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate and Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations (if it exists). The dates on these are crucial in determining whether you owed £70 or £105 at the time in question. They might be able to generate dated PDF copies from their computer system and email them to you. You might have to put in a GDPR Subject Access Request to find out.
Here's the thing - even if it turns out the council were wrong to send bailiffs after you for the extra £35, there's not a lot you can do about it. You'd have to ask the court in Northampton for permission to file your paperwork four months after the deadline. There is a form for that, but it's pretty hard to get it accepted and you only get one shot at it.
Hello,
When I paid my PCN via the online portal the only fee that was requested was £70. I had no knowledge of the £105 fee outstanding. The debt that was then registered against me I didn’t have any knowledge about it.
The first I have heard about this escalation is the stage where enforcement officer comes to my door. I have received no letters from the council, the TEC & the enforcement agency, hence why I am only now asking for support at this stage.
I haven’t received a letter from the court in Northampton, I think I might have worded the V5 section wrong. My V5 is correct I have a photo of it after using it to do my tax I will attach it along with other documents.
I will have to contact the council and request the data they hold on the PCN.
-
@Enceladus hello, I have checked my V5 and all the information is correct. I have shown a receipt of my £70 payment to Swansea council and since that date I have received not a single letter including the ‘NTO’ from the council.
As you can see from my photos it was then taken to the TEC in February which even then I had received no letters from either the council or the TEC.
The bailiffs turned up with ‘Warrant of Control’ for a sum of £354 but I’ve been trying to contact them as there was no explanation of why I’ve received this charge on the paper. Then this morning they turned up at my door and clamped my car demanding £454.
On the images you can see they attached a document which i presume the original charge was for a late payment and a Fee of £44. I never received a letter to pay this sum and I’m guessing it has escalated to this now.
£454? Do you mean £464?
The breakdown of the £464 is:
£35 = PCN surcharge - Did you receive a Charge Certificate?
£9 = TEC registration - Did you receive an Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charge?
£75 = Compliance Stage Fee - Did you receive a Notice of Enforcement ex Bailiff?
£235 = Enforcement Stage Fee Bailiff - Bailiff visit to address of Registered Keeper.
£110 = Sale Stage Fee - Car clamped
£464 = Total
I suggest that right now you have no choice but to pay the £464 immediately, to release your car and to prevent the bailiff from towing it away.
You'll also need to, if it's even possible, submit an Out of Time application & Witness Statement to the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC). This will need to be carefully worded to maximise your chances of getting it accepted as very likely Swansea will object.
At the moment it's unclear what grounds you might be able to use on a WS & OOT. In particular did you receive a Notice to Owner prior to the 26th November 2023? The Swansea website implies it was sent.
You've mentioned an appeal. I assume you mean that you submitted representations to Swansea? When exactly and please post up the response.
You mention something left by the bailiff at you parent's house. Please post up that document.
You've mentioned the TEC? What's happened there? Did you submit something to the TEC? When and what exactly?
You can still submit a Witness Statement and Out of Time even if you pay the bailiff. And if successful you should get your money back. But you need to get on with it.
Hello,
Yes I meant £464. Upon reading your breakdown of the charges I can confidently say that the first I heard of this was at the ‘Enforcement Stage Fee’ I had received no prior notice of any other stages including the PCN surcharge. When I paid my fine via Swansea councils portal, the fee to pay was £70 and since then I haven’t received any information explaining I owed any more.
I understand with the Out of time application you have to write about your claim but I’m unsure what to word it as.
I have had to pay the bailiff the £464 fee to get them off my back and the enforcement officer said that I would have to go via the TEC for appeal process. I received no ‘letter of enforcement’ the first I’d heard off the enforcement was when they was at my front door demanding £354.
I will have to add another link of images with the documents I’ve received off the bailiff.
-
Yeah, you're missing a lot of paperwork here. That makes it hard to give you good advice, because timing is crucial here.
If you don't pay a Penalty Charge Notice on time, they send you a letter called a Charge Certificate that increases the amount you owe by 50%.
You say that you paid them the £70 that was due. The council are saying it had gone up by that point, and you actually owed £105.
If you pay less than the amount that's due, the council are allowed to keep it as part-payment and chase you for the rest.
They registered a debt of £44 against you. That's the £35 they're saying you still owe, plus the £9 court registration fee.
The bailiffs got involved, and sent you a letter. That adds £75 onto the amount owed. That almost triples it, taking the total to £119.
The bailiffs had to come knocking on your door. That adds £235 in enforcement costs to the amount owed, tripling it again and taking it to £354.
If they visit you again and actually take steps to remove goods (your car), it will add another £110 on, taking you to £464.
They're saying that this is justified, because you missed the deadline to pay £70 by one day. We can't tell you if they're right or wrong, because we'd need to know the date of service on the Notice to Owner and the Charge Certificate - two pieces of paperwork that you don't have.
In fact, you seem to be missing a lot of paperwork. In addition to the Notice to Owner and Charge Certificate from the council, you should have an Order for Recovery from a court in Northampton and a Notice of Enforcement from the bailiffs as well. Sometimes post goes wrong and people don't receive one of these letters. But you're missing all of them.
You say your V5C is up-to-date and has the correct address, but when did you update it? The V5C should have a date of issue on the front page. Did you by any chance update it after September last year?
You should stop having back-and-forth emails with the bailiffs. They won't back down and it won't delay them from coming to visit you again. They have been instructed to collect a debt on behalf of a council, and they won't stop until they either get the money, or the council calls them off. Also, they don't need to give you any proof. Penalty Charge Notices are dealt with by a special court in Northampton. Unless you fill out a certain form and post it back by a certain deadline, the court automatically sides with the council and gives them permission to send bailiffs after you. This has already happened to you. The bailiffs have a warrant dated February 2024.
If I were you, I would phone the council. Act confused (but polite). Say you've paid it in full but you're still receiving demands. It's a gamble, it might not work. But you might get through to a nice person who's in a good mood that day and decides paying £70 a day late is good enough and closes the case, calling off the bailiffs. If that doesn't work, ask them to send you copies of the paperwork. You really need the dates for the Notice to Owner, Charge Certificate and Notice of Rejection of Formal Representations (if it exists). The dates on these are crucial in determining whether you owed £70 or £105 at the time in question. They might be able to generate dated PDF copies from their computer system and email them to you. You might have to put in a GDPR Subject Access Request to find out.
Here's the thing - even if it turns out the council were wrong to send bailiffs after you for the extra £35, there's not a lot you can do about it. You'd have to ask the court in Northampton for permission to file your paperwork four months after the deadline. There is a form for that, but it's pretty hard to get it accepted and you only get one shot at it.
-
@Enceladus hello, I have checked my V5 and all the information is correct. I have shown a receipt of my £70 payment to Swansea council and since that date I have received not a single letter including the ‘NTO’ from the council.
As you can see from my photos it was then taken to the TEC in February which even then I had received no letters from either the council or the TEC.
The bailiffs turned up with ‘Warrant of Control’ for a sum of £354 but I’ve been trying to contact them as there was no explanation of why I’ve received this charge on the paper. Then this morning they turned up at my door and clamped my car demanding £454.
On the images you can see they attached a document which i presume the original charge was for a late payment and a Fee of £44. I never received a letter to pay this sum and I’m guessing it has escalated to this now.
£454? Do you mean £464?
The breakdown of the £464 is:
£35 = PCN surcharge - Did you receive a Charge Certificate?
£9 = TEC registration - Did you receive an Order for Recovery of Unpaid Penalty Charge?
£75 = Compliance Stage Fee - Did you receive a Notice of Enforcement ex Bailiff?
£235 = Enforcement Stage Fee Bailiff - Bailiff visit to address of Registered Keeper.
£110 = Sale Stage Fee - Car clamped
£464 = Total
I suggest that right now you have no choice but to pay the £464 immediately, to release your car and to prevent the bailiff from towing it away.
You'll also need to, if it's even possible, submit an Out of Time application & Witness Statement to the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC). This will need to be carefully worded to maximise your chances of getting it accepted as very likely Swansea will object.
At the moment it's unclear what grounds you might be able to use on a WS & OOT. In particular did you receive a Notice to Owner prior to the 26th November 2023? The Swansea website implies it was sent.
You've mentioned an appeal. I assume you mean that you submitted representations to Swansea? When exactly and please post up the response.
You mention something left by the bailiff at you parent's house. Please post up that document.
You've mentioned the TEC? What's happened there? Did you submit something to the TEC? When and what exactly?
You can still submit a Witness Statement and Out of Time even if you pay the bailiff. And if successful you should get your money back. But you need to get on with it.
-
@RhysGrif I suggest you give us the PCN number and number plate and also post up what documents you do have.
You may have to make a subject access request to find out what's gone wrong.
Have you had any other problems receiving post? To go from roadside PCN to bailiffs there are an awful lot of letters that all happened to get lost in the post, so it would be odd if only letters related to the PCN had gone missing.
-
I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN.
Then in July this month I had an enforcement officer turn up to my house with a warrant of control for £354.
Between November and February where it got raised to the traffic enforcement centre I received zero communication from either the TEC & the council. Then when it’s been passed onto the enforcement agency I have received zero communication from them until last week where they turned up at my house.
It would appear that the deadline for making the payment of £70 was on 25th November 2023 and that you made payment one day late on 26th November 2023.
The PCN was placed on your vehicle and that following the issue, you state that you did not receive any further communication until an enforcement agent visited your parents address. I am assuming that their registered was where your vehicle was registered to? Is this correct?
Hello.
I live at the address my car is registered at. I was on holiday so I worded it they arrived at my parents house. But there has been no letters since I’ve paid the PCN
-
@Enceladus hello, I have checked my V5 and all the information is correct. I have shown a receipt of my £70 payment to Swansea council and since that date I have received not a single letter including the ‘NTO’ from the council.
As you can see from my photos it was then taken to the TEC in February which even then I had received no letters from either the council or the TEC.
The bailiffs turned up with ‘Warrant of Control’ for a sum of £354 but I’ve been trying to contact them as there was no explanation of why I’ve received this charge on the paper. Then this morning they turned up at my door and clamped my car demanding £454.
On the images you can see they attached a document which i presume the original charge was for a late payment and a Fee of £44. I never received a letter to pay this sum and I’m guessing it has escalated to this now.
-
The deadline to pay would be dependent on the date of the letter rejecting your informal representations against the PCN. That's the on-street PCN that you posted the link for.
Please post up the rejection letter. Just redact your name and address.
If this PCN wasn't fully paid then you should have a received a Notice to Owner. You could have submitted formal representations against this. But you haven't posted up an NTO. Did you ever receive an NTO? Or a subsequent Charge Certificate?
To enforce, the bailiff would have to have served a Notice of Enforcement detailing how much was owed plus a £75 fee. And providing seven clear days to pay. Did you ever receive a Notice of Enforcement?
You account has hallmarks of a case where the Registered Keeper's address held by the DVLA is incorrect or out of date. Check the V5c for your car. Is the name and address 100% correct? And is it the address where you currently live at? Please don't just assume. Get the document out and check.
-
UPDATE: Bailiffs turned up to my house at 06:20 for a sum of £454 or they’d clamp my car. Can anyone please assist me
-
@cp8759 the registered address is where I live. All information on my log book is correct
-
@RhysGrif what's the registered address on the V5C?
-
Hello.
I live at the address my car is registered at. I was on holiday so I worded it they arrived at my parents house. But there has been no letters since I’ve paid the PCN
-
I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN.
Then in July this month I had an enforcement officer turn up to my house with a warrant of control for £354.
Between November and February where it got raised to the traffic enforcement centre I received zero communication from either the TEC & the council. Then when it’s been passed onto the enforcement agency I have received zero communication from them until last week where they turned up at my house.
It would appear that the deadline for making the payment of £70 was on 25th November 2023 and that you made payment one day late on 26th November 2023.
The PCN was placed on your vehicle and that following the issue, you state that you did not receive any further communication until an enforcement agent visited your parents address. I am assuming that their registered was where your vehicle was registered to? Is this correct?
-
I paid my PCN in November 2023 after appealing the charge. Didn’t win my appeal so later paid the full £70 for my PCN. I have the receipt of my payment and have received no other letters or any communication from the council since. Then in July this month I had an enforcement officer turn up to my house with a warrant of control for £354.
I emailed the agency straight away and didn’t get a response for 6 days. I’ve asked them for the full transcript of communication they’ve had between Swansea council to find out how it’s got to this point. They showed me a document which I have attached in the link below with a warrant of control that was dated in February.
Between November and February where it got raised to the traffic enforcement centre I received zero communication from either the TEC & the council. Then when it’s been passed onto the enforcement agency I have received zero communication from them until last week where they turned up at my house.
If anyone could please assist me with this it, I would greatly appreciated.
Images - https://imgur.com/a/SSfP0ip