Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Private parking tickets => Topic started by: range23 on June 12, 2024, 07:37:38 pm
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My advice is to simply ignore it. Do not waste your time or energy. Let them waste their money on postage. Use the letters as kindling or to line the bottom of a cat litter tray.
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I read that not sending a response to a letter before claim within the time window can allow them to ask the court to automatically presume liability?
Where did you read that?
Ahh sorry just had another google and I've misread it. Think it was talking about when you've been served an mcol which doesn't apply in my case since I'm in Scotland and it would be a simple procedure.
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I read that not sending a response to a letter before claim within the time window can allow them to ask the court to automatically presume liability?
Where did you read that?
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Thanks, that's what I thought. Do you think it's worth sending off a response to the letter before claim stating that as the registered keeper I'm not liable for the parking charge unless they can identify the driver? or do you think that'd do more harm than good?
I read that not sending a response to a letter before claim within the time window can allow them to ask the court to automatically presume liability? But as you said I guess it's unlikely that it'd actually get that far.
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They don't know the drivers identity and you are under no legal obligation to identify anyone to an unregulated private parking company. There is no Keeper liability in Scotland. They cannot rely on PoFA to transfer liability from the unknown driver to the Keeper.
They will not do anything. They have no jurisdiction and the cost of them trying to take you to court is just not cost effective for them as in Scotland, they cannot recover any fees for a claim under £300 and even if it were more than that, only 10% of the claim amount.
They are simply hoping you are low-hanging fruit on the gullible tree and will capitulate and pay them at the threat of litigation.
Nothing has changed for Scotland... for now. When the Private Parking (Code of Practice) Act 2019 is fully enacted, then PoFA (or the Scottish versions of it) will become a fact of life.
Thanks to your Dear ex-Leader, the Scottish people will soon be the victims of an aberrant law unique to England and Wales — PoFA. Despite centuries of legal tradition, going back as far as the Magna Carta, where individuals could not be held liable for contracts they never entered into, Scots will soon find themselves bound by a Scottish version of PoFA. This law introduces vicarious liability in contract law — something almost unheard of around the world. So why did the Dear ex-Leader agree to bring such an unprecedented and out-of-step piece of legislation to Scotland that disposes privity of contract? Quite the ironic legacy for someone who claimed to champion Scottish independence.
Anyway, continue to ignore the useless debt collecting attempts. Nothing will come of it.
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Does that letter represent the total of what they sent you? Does that letter fully comply with the requirements set out in paragraph 3 of the Pre Action Protocol:
https://www.justice.gov.uk/documents/debt-pap.pdf
Yeah this is all that was sent this time but they have sent the usual threatening reminder letters between this and my original post.
Does the fact that I'm in Scotland make it easier for them to take me to court over this since the rules around sending a letter before claim seem to be a bit more relaxed?
What do you reckon I should do next? Continue to ignore given they don't know who the driver was and only know the registered keeper or is there a response I should send at this stage?
I've included the letter they sent before this one below where they state that the fact the DVLA provided my details as the registered keeper will be used as evidence.
(https://i.imgur.com/I8X1uaW.jpeg)
Thanks
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Well spotted. My bad. I hadn't noticed it was for a PCN issued in Scotland.
In Scotland, there are different pre-action protocols and legal procedures under Scottish law, such as the Debt Arrangement Scheme (DAS) and specific pre-action requirements for certain types of consumer debt.
This is what I could find about the "simple procedure" in Scotland:
The Simple Procedure is used for claims in Scotland where the value of the debt is less than £5,000. It replaces the old small claims procedure. Creditors are expected to send a "letter before action," which is somewhat similar to the Letter of Claim in the Pre-Action Protocol in England and Wales. However, it’s a simpler and less prescriptive process in Scotland.
There is no actual Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims in Scotland as there is under the Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) in England and Wales. Instead of the PAP, creditors in Scotland must still follow certain principles, including fairness, reasonableness, and providing debtors with an opportunity to settle the debt without court action, but the specific requirements are less formalised.
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Does that pre-action protocol apply to Scottish claims?
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Does that letter represent the total of what they sent you? Does that letter fully comply with the requirements set out in paragraph 3 of the Pre Action Protocol:
https://www.justice.gov.uk/documents/debt-pap.pdf
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Hey All,
Thanks for your responses so far. Just thought I'd provide an update.
So I've continued to get reminder letters through the post and haven't responded to any of the letters at all.
Today I've received a Letter Before Claim from P4P. Should I continue to ignore or could you please advise on next steps?
Letter included below:
(https://i.imgur.com/vO07PUk.jpeg)
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Thanks for your responses.
So this took place in Scotland and the keeper is in Scotland? If so, unless anything has changed recently*, given this is a single ticket, you can continue to ignore.
Yes and yes.
I had a quick google and seems like it's not been enacted into law yet and is still listed as "prospective"
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2019/17/part/8
On 13th January 2017 the Dundee Sherriff Court handed down judgment in favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to Court for non payment of a parking charge.
They're misrepresenting that case somewhat - the defendant in that case wasn't being pursued for non-payment of a parking charge, but rather, over 200, and she was known to be the driver. The total claim was over £24,000.
Not to mention she was well aware of the restrictions and took the attitude of 'you can't stop me' and that she put that 'attitude' on record to the parking company.
All the case proved was that private parking charges aren't blanket unenforceable, it in no way made any case for a particular charge to be enforceable (even against the driver).
Yeah seems like quoting these cases are scare tactics rather than definitive proof that they'll win should it go to court
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On 13th January 2017 the Dundee Sherriff Court handed down judgment in favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to Court for non payment of a parking charge.
They're misrepresenting that case somewhat - the defendant in that case wasn't being pursued for non-payment of a parking charge, but rather, over 200, and she was known to be the driver. The total claim was over £24,000.
Not to mention she was well aware of the restrictions and took the attitude of 'you can't stop me' and that she put that 'attitude' on record to the parking company.
All the case proved was that private parking charges aren't blanket unenforceable, it in no way made any case for a particular charge to be enforceable (even against the driver).
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all parties are residents of Scotland.
So this took place in Scotland and the keeper is in Scotland? If so, unless anything has changed recently*, given this is a single ticket, you can continue to ignore.
*adding this caveat as I don't really keep an eye on any changes north of the border!
On 13th January 2017 the Dundee Sherriff Court handed down judgment in favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to Court for non payment of a parking charge.
They're misrepresenting that case somewhat - the defendant in that case wasn't being pursued for non-payment of a parking charge, but rather, over 200, and she was known to be the driver. The total claim was over £24,000.
I assume I can argue the driver was a visitor and there were no means of obtaining a visitor permit at the site?
The specifics of the case are largely irrelevant, but as an aside, this on its own is not a particularly compelling argument. If a driver enters private land and finds he is unable to comply with the terms of parking on offer he is expected to leave.
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Normally on these PPN`s in Scotland there is no keeper liability under PoFA and as long as they don`t know who was driving.
There is a usual reply to these PPN`s.
Regulars will know better.
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The driver was visiting a friend in Leith and parked in the car park for the building. The driver says they never seen any signs when they parked up as all signs are attached to a fence below eye level and are mostly behind other parked cars. There is a sign on entry to the car park but again is below eye level.
The driver had previously parked there before the Private Parking company was installed and assumed they were still safe to do so as a visitor to the building. The sign states that visitors should obtain a permit from residents, estate or concierge office. Resident was never given visitor permits & there is no estate or concierge office that they know of.
Driver can provide proof of residence of friend that they visited & all parties are residents of Scotland.
I the registered keeper has received a 3 letters so far from TNC Parking Services on behalf of P4Parking. The latest letter is titled "Notice of intention to instruct solicitors. To commence legal action at your local county court. Parking charges are legally enforceable."
I haven't communicated with TNC/P4P regarding these notices.
The body of the letter is as follows:
Please be advised that unless settlement of the above Parking Charge Notice is received by this office within 7 days of the post mark hereon we intend to advise our above client to instigate immediate legal proceedings against you.
Should this be necessary and subject to judgment and the rules of the Court our client may further be entitled to additional costs, fees and interest.
Please be aware that, if the Court decides you owe the money, a County Court Judgment (CCJ will be issued which might adversely affect your credit rating.
Private Parking Charges are legally enforceable in the UK.
England & Wales - On 4th November 2015 the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom handed down judgment in the favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to Court for non payment of a parking charge. Full details can be found online at - https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2015-0116.html
Scotland - On 13th January 2017 the Dundee Sherriff Court handed down judgment in favour of a parking operator who took a motorist to Court for non payment of a parking charge. Full details can be found at - https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-
judgments/judgment?id=a48631a7-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7
I think the window for popla / appeal will have closed. Should I continue to not respond to them?
In the slim chance it does go to court, I assume I can argue the driver was a visitor and there were no means of obtaining a visitor permit at the site?
Photo of the carpark signage:
(https://i.imgur.com/mZp5NRO.jpeg)
Glad I found this forum since Pepipoo is down.
Thanks!