Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: D D on June 11, 2024, 12:47:22 pm
-
Can you give us the TPT Case Number please. We can then download it and keep it.
Certainly it’s Case Ref MC00642-2409
-
Can you give us the TPT Case Number please. We can then download it and keep it.
-
Well done :)
-
Reporting back with success :D
Unfortunately I was late to accept a hearing it automatically went to an adjudicator.
I added some additional comments and pictures of the sign being incorrectly installed. Not being parallel with Oxford Street. It infact sits at a 45Deg angle which is misleading making on coming motorists believe the restriction is on Hulme street which is what it did in my case and made me hesitant to proceed hence turning down the bus restriction road.
Adjudicator's reasons,
It is the Authority’s case that the Appellant’s vehicle was in a bus lane on Oxford Road on 13 May 2024. They rely in evidence on CCTV footage, which opens with the vehicle on Oxford Road, having emerged from Charles Street. It looks as though it was intending to proceed across the junction into Hulme Street, but it then makes a late left turn and proceeds into the bus lane. The Authority also rely on a collection of photographs of the location, showing the relevant signage, which is dated 10 May 2024. I note that there is an advance warning sign on Charles Street prior to the junction and then there are two prohibition signs on Oxford Road. The one on the Charles Street side faces directly ahead and so on approaching the junction along Charles Street it would be side on and not clearly visible. The sign on the opposite side of Oxford Road is angled such that it would be visible from Charles Street, but it is on the corner at the entrance to Hulme Street.
It is the Appellant’s case that the positioning of the latter sign is misleading because it indicates that the restriction applies to Hulme Street. Having regard to the CCTV footage, I am satisfied that the Appellant was misled by the positioning of this sign. I take the view that the positioning of this sign was potentially misleading, it being so close to the entrance to Hulme Street such that it could have been interpreted as applying to Hulme Street. Accordingly, and noting that the Appellant did not see the advance warning sign it having been obscured by a delivery lorry, I am not satisfied that the prohibition signage was clear and unambiguous, and, in those circumstances, the contravention cannot, in my view, be established and I allow the appeal.
The Appellant has raised various procedural points, but there is no need for me to address these
Big thanks for everyone who input into this thread!
If anyone else gets this same fine use the incorrectly installed sign as your defence at tribunal!
-
‘I would like a Telephone Hearing / Video Hearing’
That's the one to choose.
Re the Evidence Pack: as a start, there should be a list of contents and a summary of why they think the Adj. should dismiss the appeal. Post those here and the experts will advise further.
Whose witness statement is included?
Do the copies of the PCN and NtO included match the originals you hold in every particular?
Thank you for your prompt response, I will check the points you highlighted and report back.
-
‘I would like a Telephone Hearing / Video Hearing’
That's the one to choose.
Re the Evidence Pack: as a start, there should be a list of contents and a summary of why they think the Adj. should dismiss the appeal. Post those here and the experts will advise further.
Whose witness statement is included?
Do the copies of the PCN and NtO included match the originals you hold in every particular?
-
From what I can see there is 20 uploaded items,
Camera certification
Witness statement
Video clip
Photos
Case status report
Pcn
Formal rep
Correspondence
Tro
Not and so on
-
Update!
I have had correspondence from the tribunal.
What happens next it says I have 2 options,
‘I would like the Adjudicator to decide my case now’
Or
‘I would like a Telephone Hearing / Video Hearing’
I recall earlier in this thread someone recommended the second option. I just want to be reassured now the time has come.
What’s the best path to take and what should I prepare?
I will upload what the authority have has uploaded as evidence but I’m guessing this is just going to be the camera footage with a statement.
Thanks a lot!
-
I have opened a case with the tribunals.
So far I have added,
Grounds of Appeal:
The authority made a procedural error
Explanation:
I am appealing based on Manchester City councils management of the enforcement process and their failure to correctly deal with my representations. The representations text does not seem to appear on their website either.
In the evidence page there is the two NOR and on the second one I have mentioned,
There was no statement made on the appeal of the pcn being paid.
I have added the original pcn to evidence and added,
The listed statutory grounds of appeal on the PCN are missing these grounds.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.
Is there anything else I should add in the comments or evidence?
Thanks
-
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/how-to-appeal/
Thanks do I have to notify MCC that this is what I’m proceeding with?
Not as far as I know. When you register an appeal, the TPT will inform the council. It is best to always opt for a telephone or video adjudication, not a papers-based one. The latter means you cannot answer questions the adjudicator may ask.
-
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/how-to-appeal/
Thanks do I have to notify MCC that this is what I’m proceeding with?
-
https://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/how-to-appeal/
-
Received no fellow support feedback here :'(
Going to have to pay the fine I guess…
Sorry, but we have to do other things from time to time, and give our time freely on this forum.
As I said before, I would take them to the tribunal if it were me, based on their management of the enforcement process. All their NOR tells you, you already know. It would be something of a gamble, and it's your money not mine.
I appreciate your response. Is there a guide somewhere on how to peruse the tribunal route with this that I can follow?
Thanks again
-
Received no fellow support feedback here :'(
Going to have to pay the fine I guess…
Sorry, but we have to do other things from time to time, and give our time freely on this forum.
As I said before, I would take them to the tribunal if it were me, based on their management of the enforcement process. All their NOR tells you, you already know. It would be something of a gamble, and it's your money not mine.
-
Received no fellow support feedback here :'(
Going to have to pay the fine I guess…
-
@cp8759
@Incandescent
Any advice on the new PCN NOR?
Many thanks :)
-
Well, of course paying give you closure. On the other hand, it gives them an albeit small sum of money for their incompetence. I know what I would be doing, but it's your decision.
They really want this £30 don’t they lol, this is their correspondence below I can upload the original doc if preferred?
PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE (PCN)
The Civil Enforcement of Road Traffic Contraventions (Representations and Appeals) (England) Regulations 2022
Penalty Charge Notice Number: MC33821439
Date given: 30/05/2024 at 18:58
Place given: Oxford Road (Charles Street To Brancaster Road) Vehicle registration: GL73EUO
NOTICE OF REJECTION OF REPRESENTATIONS.
Thank you for your enquiry making representations in connection with the above PCN which we received on 15 August 2024.
The vehicle was recorded by CCTV in a bus gate on Oxford Road between Charles Street and Brancaster Road (Southbound). This bus gate is in operation 6am to 9pm, 7 days a week, the only vehicles permitted to be in the restricted area are buses, taxis, bicycles, and permit holders. As you enter the bus gate there are signs and road markings to indicate the start of the bus gate and an alternative route should have been taken.
I can confirm that the signage which informs drivers that there is a bus gate in operation complies fully with all relevant legislation (The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions). This legislation specifies the signage we must use both at the start of the bus gate and the additional advanced warning signage which is in place on all side roads leading to the Oxford Road corridor. The lines and signs for a bus gate differ from those used to identify a bus lane, the main difference being we are unable to include any road markings (ie coloured red and/or with the legend "Bus Lane"). Bus gates will be marked with standard `no motor vehicles` signs - a red circle with a motorbike above a car inside.
The decisions on where to locate the signs are made by qualified Highways engineers who are experienced in the positioning of road signs to inform drivers to whom they apply.
There are several bus gates on Oxford Road between Hathersage Road and Portland Street. Some of the bus gates are in place in both directions and others only restrict traffic in one direction. For more information on the location of the bus gates and the restrictions in place,
please visit our website: https://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/471/parking_in_public_areas/7420/bus_gates/2
Manchester City Council, in partnership with Transport for Greater Manchester, carried out a comprehensive communication and advertising campaign to make all road users aware of these changes which came into force in October 2017. Warning notices were issued to motorists who contravened the bus gate for six weeks before the restrictions were made `live`. Both Manchester City Council and Transport for Greater Manchester continue to work with satellite navigation companies to improve the information available to update their equipment.
I have carefully considered your case and the Council does not accept that any of the statutory grounds (listed below) or other grounds for representation have been established.
On this occasion I am prepared to accept payment at the discounted charge of £30.00. You must make payment within 21 days of the date of this letter or the charge will continue to increase.
To view images or CCTV footage (where applicable) taken at the time your PCN was issued, please visit: www.manchester.gov.uk/parking
The penalty charge of £30.00 is now payable. This must be paid before the end of the period of 21 days beginning with the date of service of this Notice. See the last page of the Notice for rules relating to service*.
You can pay £60.00. You have 28 days beginning with the date of service of this Notice*.
You must now decide whether to pay the PCN or whether to appeal to an independent adjudicator.
If, after 28 days, you have taken no action, we may send you a Charge Certificate increasing the charge from £60.00 to £90.00. You will then have 14 days to pay the increased charge.
If, after the 14 days, you have not paid the increased charge, we may apply to the County Court to recover the money - plus court costs - from you.
HOW TO PAY
- Online at www.manchester.gov.uk/parking and follow the links to Pay PCN.
- By telephone credit/debit card payments only. Use our automated payment line 0161 234 5006 (24 hours, seven days a week).Please have your vehicle details and PCN number ready.
- In person at any PayPoint, you will need to take your PCN to allow the barcode to be scanned.
Appeals
If you disagree with the council’s decision you can appeal to an adjudicator at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The adjudicators are independent of the council and their decision is final.
The grounds for appeal are as follows:
• The alleged contravention did not occur.
• Regulation 6(1), (other proceedings pursued) applies i.e. I have received a fixed penalty notice from the Police or criminal proceedings are being pursued for the same contravention.
• I was not the owner of the vehicle in question at the time of the alleged contravention. i.e.
a) I was never the owner of the vehicle in question
b) I had ceased to be its owner before the detection date
c) I became its owner after the detection date. (You must supply the name and address of the person to whom the vehicle was disposed of/from whom the vehicle was acquired).
• I was the hirer of the vehicle concerned on the detection date but I am not liable to pay the penalty charge under regulation 5(2) (i.e. I did not sign a statement that I would be liable for penalty charges incurred during the currency of the hiring agreement)
• I was the registered keeper of the vehicle on the detection date but on that date: i) regulation 5(2) applies (vehicle subject to a hire agreement)
ii) regulation 5(3) applies (the vehicle was kept by a vehicle trader), and the recipient was either not a vehicle trader or was a vehicle trader but not the vehicle trader keeping the vehicle, or
• The penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case • Grounds of procedural impropriety.
You can appeal now by visiting the tribunals website: www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/appeal
The website explains what the adjudicator can consider and how to appeal. There is no charge for appealing and costs are not normally awarded. You will need the information below to hand when you begin your appeal.
Notice of Rejection date: 02 September 2024 PCN number(s): MC33821439
Vehicle Registration Mark: GL73EUO Online Code: 98I424
You should appeal within 28 days of this Notice of Rejection (usually 2 working days after the "Notice of Rejection" date above - our website explains this) being served. If you are unable to appeal online you may request a paper form from the Traffic Penalty Tribunal by calling 01625 44 55 99 and leaving your name, address, telephone number, vehicle registration
mark and PCN number.
Costs
The Adjudicator will not normally make an order awarding costs and expenses to either an appellant or to an enforcement authority but may do so where the Adjudicator is of the opinion that one of those parties to the appeal has acted frivolously or vexatiously or that the conduct in making, pursuing or resisting an appeal was wholly unreasonable.
No order for costs would be made without giving the affected party an opportunity of making representations against the making of the order.
Yours sincerely
-
Well, of course paying give you closure. On the other hand, it gives them an albeit small sum of money for their incompetence. I know what I would be doing, but it's your decision.
Your supportive response enticed me to push further with the following response ;)
I submitted my representations via the online portal. In my representations, I clearly did not state that I paid the PCN and provided reasons for my challenge.
To date, I have not received any correspondence regarding the outcome of my representation, nor can I locate a record of them on the website when I check the portal.
I will have no choice but to register an appeal at TPT, in view of your failure to correctly deal with my representations.
I await your response to decide my next decision.
Regards
-
Well, of course paying give you closure. On the other hand, it gives them an albeit small sum of money for their incompetence. I know what I would be doing, but it's your decision.
-
@cp8759
@Incandescent
Hi any idea with the above?
Thanks
I looked at what you say are your reps, but there seems to be noting there from yourself, it is all just a listing and description of the statutory grounds for an appeal. Something obviously wrong.
I suggest you write back and tell them that you have not paid the PCN, and never even hinted at payment in the reps. Tell them that your representations text does not seem to appear on their website.
You'd best decide now whether to pay up or take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, so your letter can also say whether you have decided to pay now ans provide proof of payment, or that you will be registering an appeal at TPT, in view of their failure correctly to deal with your representations.
For the amount of time this has taken from us this far and for more time needed for traffic tribunal I think I might just let this one pass and pay the £30. Seems the more cost effective way this time, if it was a lot more I would put up bit more of a fight. Agree?
-
@cp8759
@Incandescent
Hi any idea with the above?
Thanks
I looked at what you say are your reps, but there seems to be noting there from yourself, it is all just a listing and description of the statutory grounds for an appeal. Something obviously wrong.
I suggest you write back and tell them that you have not paid the PCN, and never even hinted at payment in the reps. Tell them that your representations text does not seem to appear on their website.
You'd best decide now whether to pay up or take them to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, so your letter can also say whether you have decided to pay now ans provide proof of payment, or that you will be registering an appeal at TPT, in view of their failure correctly to deal with your representations.
-
@cp8759
@Incandescent
Hi any idea with the above?
Thanks
-
I have received correspondence which is attached via the link bellow, thank to your support this far.
They have taken to account from my representation that I have paid. (Which we know I haven’t)
They are now asking when was the payment made so they can investigate this further.
They request documentary evidence within 14 days or payment of £30 within the same time period.
(My representation went past the 50% payment reduction and they are still honouring it)
Appreciate your input in advance!
https://flic.kr/p/2q8tXRA (https://flic.kr/p/2q8tXRA)
-
Submitted the following,
https://flic.kr/p/2q62Lvy
Sorry I’m not very good at arching images
-
If the online options has this one "the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case" then select it instead. Whatever you select or submit, they have a duty to consider.
It only has the following options to choose, which would be best suited?
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and the driver at the time of the contravention
I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle but was the driver at the time of the contravention
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention I sold or bought the vehicle before or after the time of the contravention)
We are a Hire and Lease company
Are you sure selecting one of these does not go to a screen with the list of statutory grounds for appeals ?
Select the one above that applies and tell us what happens.
I chose not owner but driver at time of contravention and the following has appeared,
Contravention Code34
Contravention Being in a bus lane (during the hours of operation of the bus lane)
Please use the box below to provide information to support your representation. You can also upload supporting documents to help the Council decide what action to take in relation to this Penalty Charge Notice.
Additional information
Your Notes…
I will enter what has been specified here in the bits section and submit
-
If the online options has this one "the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case" then select it instead. Whatever you select or submit, they have a duty to consider.
It only has the following options to choose, which would be best suited?
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and the driver at the time of the contravention
I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle but was the driver at the time of the contravention
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention I sold or bought the vehicle before or after the time of the contravention)
We are a Hire and Lease company
Are you sure selecting one of these does not go to a screen with the list of statutory grounds for appeals ?
Select the one above that applies and tell us what happens.
-
@Phantomcrusader or @cp8759
Can you please advise on the above as I’d like to take action today as it’s getting close to end date for rep :-[
-
If the online options has this one "the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case" then select it instead. Whatever you select or submit, they have a duty to consider.
It only has the following options to choose, which would be best suited?
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and the driver at the time of the contravention
I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle but was the driver at the time of the contravention
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention I sold or bought the vehicle before or after the time of the contravention)
We are a Hire and Lease company
-
If the online options has this one "the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case" then select it instead. Whatever you select or submit, they have a duty to consider.
-
The listed statutory grounds of appeal on the PCN are missing these grounds.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.
Also, the bit about being owner of the vehicle is misleading. It says you must supply evidence but the regulations make no such requirement. You must only supply evidence if the information is known to you. The way they have worded it makes it sound like you have no grounds unless you can supply the evidence.
If the PCN does not contain all the info the law requires it to, the PCN is invalid and the penalty charge must be cancelled.
I understand what you have explained thank you.
But what I don’t understand is the methods of selection, the website is different to the paper pcn appeal it does not include procedural impropriety only the mail one has this.
So would it be best to make the paper appeal sent via tracked service and hold copy’s?
-
The listed statutory grounds of appeal on the PCN are missing these grounds.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.
Also, the bit about being owner of the vehicle is misleading. It says you must supply evidence but the regulations make no such requirement. You must only supply evidence if the information is known to you. The way they have worded it makes it sound like you have no grounds unless you can supply the evidence.
If the PCN does not contain all the info the law requires it to, the PCN is invalid and the penalty charge must be cancelled.
-
If the PCN you have now received states the same grounds of appeal as the one sent to the hire company, then the PCN appears to be missing these statutory grounds of appeal. Therefore you can tick the appeal ground that a procedural impropriety has occurred.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.
Hi still not done anything with this yet as not heard back from anyone here :/
You mentioned already via the procedural impropriety
This option is not available on the Manchester web portal only these options I’ve listed below,
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and the driver at the time of the contravention
I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle but was the driver at the time of the contravention
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention I sold or bought the vehicle before or after the time of the contravention)
We are a Hire and Lease company
Shall I appeal via mail? Take copies and send via tracked service?
Thanks
-
I asked for the lease agreement from the company again the other day and they just sent me the same info I attached recently via the drop box link.
A generic policy it seems.
-
If the PCN you have now received states the same grounds of appeal as the one sent to the hire company, then the PCN appears to be missing these statutory grounds of appeal. Therefore you can tick the appeal ground that a procedural impropriety has occurred.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.
Appreciate your response, upon making the representation the only options I have to move forward to entering my written representation are the following,
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle
I am the registered keeper of this vehicle and the driver at the time of the contravention
I am not the registered keeper of this vehicle but was the driver at the time of the contravention
I was not the owner of the vehicle at the time of the contravention I sold or bought the vehicle before or after the time of the contravention)
We are a Hire and Lease Company
Which one would be best to select here?
Regards
-
If the PCN you have now received states the same grounds of appeal as the one sent to the hire company, then the PCN appears to be missing these statutory grounds of appeal. Therefore you can tick the appeal ground that a procedural impropriety has occurred.
(g)the order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned, except where it is an order to which Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the RTRA 1984 applies, is invalid;
(i)the enforcement notice should not have been served because—
(i)the penalty charge has already been paid in full, or
(ii)the penalty charge has been paid, reduced by the amount of any discount set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the TMA 2004, by the applicable date as specified in paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 3 to the 2022 General Regulations.
-
@cp8759
I love how they give you options to basically admit you was the driver at the time but not anything else to say I am the driver but this wasn’t the case.
I know it’s lte on the rep I’ve had a killer of a week at work and was our daughters prom last night so there’s been a lot of time helping with the school event prep.
Shall I select I was the driver what’s selected below?
https://flic.kr/p/2q3UtNP (https://flic.kr/p/2q3UtNP)
-
I have attached the policy I have received from which is the DB link below.
That's just a company policy, it's not a lease agreement. Have you personally signed a lease agreement with anyone? If not, it's very hard to see how you could be personally liable for any penalty.
Thanks for taking the time to overlook.
I will request a copy of the lease agreement and see what they come back with.
-
I have attached the policy I have received from which is the DB link below.
That's just a company policy, it's not a lease agreement. Have you personally signed a lease agreement with anyone? If not, it's very hard to see how you could be personally liable for any penalty.
-
That being said, to know your chances on appeal to the tribunal (where the discount is off the table and it's all or nothing) we need to see the terms and conditions of the lease agreement, I'm not sure we've seen this yet?
Just redact your personal details and make sure to include all the small print in the terms and conditions.
@cp8759
I have attached the policy I have received from which is the DB link below.
Let me know your thoughts?
I have noted the date in diary for the representation reminder ..
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/knixs9376bcu7k2q3v6r5/EV-Car-Policy-Febuary-2023.pdf?rlkey=i7dtxqk8f0f0y96ydmph64al1&dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/knixs9376bcu7k2q3v6r5/EV-Car-Policy-Febuary-2023.pdf?rlkey=i7dtxqk8f0f0y96ydmph64al1&dl=0)
-
@D D well the obvious next step is to make a representation saying the contravention did not occur, this should be done within 14 days from the date of issue to ensure the discount is reoffered. I know the discount period is 21 days, but we have no reliable data to say whether the discount will be extended if you make representations between days 15 and 21. Making representations on day 14 from the date of issue (not service) would be the safest approach that buys the most time.
That being said, to know your chances on appeal to the tribunal (where the discount is off the table and it's all or nothing) we need to see the terms and conditions of the lease agreement, I'm not sure we've seen this yet?
Just redact your personal details and make sure to include all the small print in the terms and conditions.
You also want to know if the hire company received anything from the council, if they did not then you need this to be confirmed in writing.
-
I have had correspondence from the lease company and they confirmed liability was transferred on the 10.06.24
Ask them if they've received anything else from the council since then.
I have now received a PCN in my details today.
Date of this pcn is now 27.06.24
Date previous pcn was cancelled 26.06.24
What shall the next move be on this one?
Shall I still find out if the lease company received anything back from the transfer?
-
I have had correspondence from the lease company and they confirmed liability was transferred on the 10.06.24
Ask them if they've received anything else from the council since then.
-
I have had correspondence from the lease company and they confirmed liability was transferred on the 10.06.24
-
It's not clear whether you've actually received anything from the council? The case history suggests the council hasn't even processed the lease company's request:
This means that when a new PCN is issued to you, you will have to respond regardless of the fact that you've made representations already, that is because whatever you sent now would not have been in response to a PCN served on you; when the PCN is served on you you're required to respond regardless of what might have come before. There's no point in jumping the gun with these statutory procedures.
I have not yet received anything directly from MCC.
I will email the lease company today and ask if the transfer has been completed.
The PCN I was issued at the start are ones received by the lease company from MCC.
I will await a new PCN in my title from MCC and will update as soon as it arrives.
I appreciate your close eye on this case sir.
-
It's not clear whether you've actually received anything from the council? The case history suggests the council hasn't even processed the lease company's request:
(https://i.imgur.com/AtVhJo6.png)
This means that when a new PCN is issued to you, you will have to respond regardless of the fact that you've made representations already, that is because whatever you sent now would not have been in response to a PCN served on you; when the PCN is served on you you're required to respond regardless of what might have come before. There's no point in jumping the gun with these statutory procedures.
-
Ok so should my first move be to get the lease company to transfer liability to me then make the simple "did not occur" representation?
I suspect the lease company has already requested a transfer of liability, but get them to confirm.
I have received a letter from the lease company stating they have given my details to the authority transferring liability to myself.
I have continued with the next stage of submitting the representation of “it did not occur”
I entered my details also to the representation.
@cp8759
-
Ok so should my first move be to get the lease company to transfer liability to me then make the simple "did not occur" representation?
I suspect the lease company has already requested a transfer of liability, but get them to confirm.
-
Ok so should my first move be to get the lease company to transfer liability to me then make the simple "did not occur" representation?
Or
Get the lease agreement, including the small print before doing anything?s
Thanks again
-
So would it be worthwhile doing the following as you explained...
This strategy has never failed so far. I've had a few cases where a council has tried to reissue the penalty to the lease company, but they've all been cancelled in the end for some reason or another (I always get a letter of authority in place ahead of time and agreement from the lease company that I can appeal on their behalf). I have never seen a non-London authority even try.
-
@D D well you didn't read the guidance properly but I've re-posted the images for you:
(https://i.imgur.com/0hCMbXl.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/AnbfxKa.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/t7JiZLT.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jSyXweS.jpeg)
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW63XxwPwKg
The one key mistake you will want to avoid is sending anything in the post, as I said last time it is 2024 after all.
The most viable argument to get out of this would be to get the lease company to transfer liability to you, make a simple "did not occur" representation, appeal to the tribunal and argue that the transfer of liability is invalid. The appeal will then be allowed and virtually all authorities will give up at this point.
However we would need to see the lease agreement, including the small print, in order to be able to give a definitive view on your chances of success.
I can see you made a representation on 10 June so it would also be helpful to see exactly what you said. Or if it was the lease company that made a representation, just confirm that to us please.
Thank you for your assistance!
I have had no participation to any representation so far so what has been done to date has been done by the lease company.
So would it be worthwhile doing the following as you explained, make a simple "did not occur" representation, appeal to the tribunal and argue that the transfer of liability is invalid. The appeal will then be allowed and virtually all authorities will give up at this point.
And expensive lesson learned on the mail side of things ;)
Regards
-
@D D well you didn't read the guidance properly but I've re-posted the images for you:
(https://i.imgur.com/0hCMbXl.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/AnbfxKa.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/t7JiZLT.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/jSyXweS.jpeg)
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW63XxwPwKg
The one key mistake you will want to avoid is sending anything in the post, as I said last time it is 2024 after all.
The most viable argument to get out of this would be to get the lease company to transfer liability to you, make a simple "did not occur" representation, appeal to the tribunal and argue that the transfer of liability is invalid. The appeal will then be allowed and virtually all authorities will give up at this point.
However we would need to see the lease agreement, including the small print, in order to be able to give a definitive view on your chances of success.
I can see you made a representation on 10 June so it would also be helpful to see exactly what you said. Or if it was the lease company that made a representation, just confirm that to us please.
-
Everything uploaded now.
The only thing that I can see is the sign on the other side of the cross road has been installed not parallel with the curb and makes you think it’s in relation to the road straight ahead which is a through road for all vehicle's.
-
https://flic.kr/p/2pWPDqT (https://flic.kr/p/2pWPDqT)
https://flic.kr/p/2pWWASa (https://flic.kr/p/2pWWASa)
https://flic.kr/p/2pWUt2a (https://flic.kr/p/2pWUt2a)
https://flic.kr/p/2pWUt13 (https://flic.kr/p/2pWUt13)
-
Im trying to upload but I am receiving server full error and to contact admin..?
Anyone else getting this message?
You'll need to use a third party site, as advised in the thread John posted for you to consult in reply #1.
-
GSV link
https://maps.app.goo.gl/P9dAvpezyj4s7S9s7?g_st=ic
The first sign was un noticed or blocked by a vehicle.
When you pull up to the lights which I remember doing at a red signal, you cannot see the sign on the immediate left on the side walk. As soon as I entered the cross section I then noticed the sign on the far left facing me which is at the wrong angle and I was miss lead and due to traffic Building up behind me I hesitated and turned left which was in fact the road that has the restrictions on!
-
All documents received from the lease company are attached.
I understand that PCN is not in my name.
But do I just nip it in the bud and just pay the £30 half price while
I can?
Just don’t want to land myself a bigger fine for something that doesn’t have any flaws that we can pick up on to avoid paying.
Im trying to upload but I am receiving server full error and to contact admin..?
Anyone else getting this message?
-
For meaningful advice you need to have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and to post up here
all sides of the PCN (only redact yr name & address, leave everything else in);
a GSV link to the location;
and the video ( which is the evidence ).
Then the experts here can form a view on whether it's worth appealing.
When does the period for discounted payment expire?
-
Hello,
Before I go right into detail I wanted to know if anyone knows whether it’s worth challenging the bus lane pcn for travelling through Oxford Road to Brancaster Road at 18:59.
I have read a lot about how much this section has made but struggle to find any wins on appealing as it seems signage is in good order.
If you’d like me to upload the PCN to start with I can do this.
It’s 50% fee is £30 I’m tempted to just take this as a slap on the wrist and walk away… let me know your thoughts.
Thanks