Free Traffic Legal Advice
Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: efunc on June 10, 2024, 09:17:46 pm
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Result ! And after informal challenge, too.
Well done !
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Thanks all, another forum triumph:
Re: Penalty Charge Notice: NJ40245618
Traffic Management Act 2004
Vehicle Registration Number: WU08WKF
Date of Contravention: 08/06/2024 at 09:33
Location: CRANBROOK ROAD, CHISWICK
Thank you for writing to us regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice (PCN).
In response to your challenge, we have cancelled your Penalty Charge Notice after carefully considering what you say.
In light of the above the case is closed and no further action needs to be taken.
We apologise for the inconvenience this may have caused you.Yours sincerely Correspondence Team
On behalf of the London Borough of Hounslow
>:(
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I had a ticket in the exact same space for the exact same reason back in early April (the skip suspensions round the corner have been going on for 3 months now). My informal reps were rather less gracious than yours. The Fob Off letter, with much patronising wording came a day later.
2.5 months later, still no Notice to Owner. I realise they have 6 months, but perhaps they've clocked that these tickets are nonsense and that an Adjudicator is going to rip them apart.
No way I'm paying!
For meaningful advice, please have a read of
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/
and start your own thread (forum rule - one person's PCN per thread).
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I had a ticket in the exact same space for the exact same reason back in early April (the skip suspensions round the corner have been going on for 3 months now). My informal reps were rather less gracious than yours. The Fob Off letter, with much patronising wording came a day later.
2.5 months later, still no Notice to Owner. I realise they have 6 months, but perhaps they've clocked that these tickets are nonsense and that an Adjudicator is going to rip them apart.
No way I'm paying!
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Looks OK to me, but don't expect them to roll-over and cancel. Most informal challenges to PCNs get a Fob-Off letter. You'll probably need to stand your ground and wait for the Notice to Owner. Your case is quite cast-iron, so don't think they know everything; they don't !
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Thanks for your input. Final draft going in for submission:
Dear Sir/Madam
PCN No NJ40245618
date 08/06/2024
I was extremely dismayed to find a PCN placed on the windscreen of my car parked in Cranbrook Road, Chiswick, London W4 on the 8th June 2024, for the alleged Contravention Code: 21 (Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space).
The notice attached to the post in front of number 3 Cranbrook Road stated that the parking bay (singular) in front of 1-3 was suspended in order to accommodate a skip. As my images show, the skip was already present in the single parking bay in question. My car however was not parked here, but in an entirely different bay, around a 90 degree bend in the road, and separated from the suspended bay by double yellow lines.
Additionally, the post beside the bay that my vehicle was parked in did not have a parking suspension notice attached to it, indicating that this one was not suspended. If indeed it was suspended for the provision of a second skip then it would have been incumbent on the council to have displayed a warning notice next to it, clearly visible, and independent of the one around the blind corner of the one way road in front of #1-3. The photos taken by your CEO confirm that none was present here.
The offence therefore, did not occur, and I would be grateful if you would cancel the PCN.
Regards,
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Clearer. Best of luck! Keep us updated!
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Clearer?
Dear Sir/Madam
PCN No NJ40245618
date 08/06/2024
I was extremely dismayed to find a PCN placed on the windscreen of my car parked in Cranbrook Road, Chiswick, London W4 on the 8th June 2024, for the alleged Contravention Code: 21 (Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space).
The notice attached to the post in front of number 3 Cranbrook Road stated that the parking bay (singular) in front of 1-3 was suspended in order to accommodate a skip. As my images show, the skip was already present in the single parking bay in question. My car however was not parked here, but in an entirely different bay, around a 90 degree bend in the road, and separated from the suspended bay by double yellow lines.
Additionally, the post beside the bay that my vehicle was parked in did not have a parking suspension notice attached to it, indicating that it was not suspended. If indeed it was suspended for a second skip then it would be a requirement to have erected a warning notice next to it, independent of the one around the blind corner in front of #1-3 of the one way road.
The offence therefore, did not occur, and I would be grateful if you would cancel the PCN.
Regards
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I would maybe clarify the wording a bit, saying that:
the notice outside #3 mentions the suspension of the parking bay (singular) outside numbers 1 to 3
However, the bay outside #1 is a different bay to that outside #3, as can be seen from the pictures which show they are separated by double yellow lines
Not only is suspending the bay outside #1 unnecessary for the installation of a skip, but, if you had wanted to suspend both bays, you would have had to i) install signs outside both bays and ii) specify that two separate bays were suspended. Instead, the picture shows that the pole next to your parked car outside #1 has no sign at all. No sign --> no valid suspension
Lastly, you might want to edit the photos with some arrows and text to make it even clearer
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Something like this?
Dear Sir/Madam
PCN No NJ40245618
date 08/06/2024
I was extremely dismayed to find a PCN placed on the windscreen of my car parked in Cranbrook Road, Chiswick, London W4 on the 8th June 2024, for the alleged Contravention Code: 21 (Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space).
The notice attached to the post in front of number 3 Cranbrook Road stated that the parking bay in front of 1-3 was suspended in order to accommodate a skip. As my images show, the skip was already present in the parking bay in question. My car was parked in an entirely different bay around a 90 degree bend in the road and separated from the suspended bay by double yellow lines. Additionally, the post beside the bay that my vehicle was parked in did not have a parking suspension notice attached to it, indicating that it was not suspended.
The offence therefore, did not occur, and I would be grateful if you would cancel the PCN.
Regards
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I will put something together this week, but entirely expect to get a rejection shortly afterwards...
Post a draft on here before submitting it to the council.
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Thank you for that. Incredible! 5 pictures of the car in the parking bay, and a final picture of a completely separate bay around the corner!
I will put something together this week, but entirely expect to get a rejection shortly afterwards...
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@efunc these are the council photos:
(https://i.imgur.com/eKeJDqb.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/4ZbD4UP.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/NFpQl1e.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/rJ2ATyv.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/peILYLJ.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/tko0dbp.png)
Aside from the fact that you can't even read the wording on the suspension sign, the photos prove beyond reasonable doubt that you were not in a suspended bay. It's worth writing some compelling representations that point this out to the council and I would include a threat of costs if they reject, as it would be wholly unreasonable for the council to issue a formal notice of rejection and if they do, then they need to be taught a lesson.
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Experience of this forum is that informal challenges are mosty not even read, the official concerned just presses a few buttons and gets a Fob-Off letter sent out. They game the system like this because most people then cough-up thinking the council know the law they are enforcing; a naive assumption !
Formal representations are considered in more detail.
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Thank you for that. I'm 100% in agreement. I will keep my representations brief then; I was intending a more lengthy argument to ensure that there would be no room for ambiguity and that they would cancel straight away, but if you think I'll get the standard fob-off, then there's no point in going to that effort at this stage.
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You appear to hae a very strong case, because there are double-yellow lines separating the bay round the corner and the one where the suspension sign is located, on the restriction sign for that bay. It looks as if they have made a complete Dogs Breakfast of the suspension details, so if it were me, I'd be taking them all the way on this one, right up to London Tribunals. If they really did mean the bay where you parked was suspended then they were obliged to put a suspension sign on the sign for the bay where you parked.
So provided you are up for it, submit a challenge as follows:
Dear Sirs
PCN No <nnn> date <date>
The offence did not occur, because the car was parked in a separate bay to the bay with the suspension sign upon it. The restrictions sign for the bay where I parked had no suspension sign displayed.
They will respond with the usual Fob-Off letter, and you must be prepared to wait for the Notice to Owner and submit reps again.
Don't fold and feed their coffers with gold !
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I'll need to make my representations soon. Can anyone point me to a similar case, and if an argument was successfully used to appeal a mislabeled suspended bay?
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Anybody know if this should be contested on the basis of inadequate signage, or the parking officer misinterpreting the suspended bay?
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Is it possible to request precise location of a parking bay from GPS coordinates or something? It seems like anyone could call anything 'suspended', and not have any proof to verify it.
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Evening all,
I would be grateful for any advice on this matter. Hounslow council seem to believe my partner parked in a suspended parking bay, however as you will see, this is not at all clear.
Contravention Code: 21
Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space
The location is 1 Cranbrook Road, Chiswick, London W4 2LH
Google Map (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cranbrook+Rd,+Chiswick,+London+W4+2LH/@51.4922679,-0.2536978,19z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x48760e472d753c47:0xdde26e928a7590cd!8m2!3d51.4917736!4d-0.2533008!16s%2Fg%2F1tj1l_9v?entry=ttu#:~:text=51.492215%2C%20%2D0.253381)
Cranbrook Road is a one-way road with numbers 2 - 28 at the front, followed by 1-3 further down. The signage outside Number 3 states that the length of the parking bay outside 1-3 is suspended (note bay singular, not bays). 1 is the white house and 3 is the greyer house, which are side by side with a parking bay outside of them where the suspension sign is positioned. My partner was parked where the blue Audi is now parked.
Clearly this suspension is in order to accommodate the Skip, which is correctly positioned in that bay.
However my partner was ticketed around the corner, beside Number 1, not in front of. Granted the front door of the house is at the side, however surely the bay that is being suspended is the one outside 1-3, not the one beside number 1? If indeed there is a suspension of the bay beside number 1 to accommodate a second skip should there not be additional signage on the post next to that bay?
crucially, this is a one-way road, so if you were to park where the blue Audi is parked in order to walk back towards the front of the road you would never know about the suspension because the sign is around the bend in front of the other bay.
Has the parking enforcement officer just misinterpreted the suspension, or have the council erected inadequate signage?
(https://i.ibb.co/TMG4yTT/pcna.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/g9csrN8/pcnb.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZgVcrF4/pcnc.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/bvNCmXF/pcne.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/fFXGZKh/pcnf.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/tmBHTY9/pcnd.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/R6yH2ZR/pcnh.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/6s15zKb/pcng.jpg)