Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: gge12 on June 06, 2024, 03:43:47 pm

Title: Re: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: LemonTootski on October 04, 2024, 05:19:58 pm
Well done, that is good news.

It's akin to a game of cards sometimes. The council showed their hand (wrongfully stating what the contravention was for), and with this knowledge, you were able to determine their assertion was totally unenforceable.

Well done. Let's hope more people benefit from this.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Incandescent on October 04, 2024, 02:31:43 pm
Very well done ! You held their hand to the fire.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on October 04, 2024, 11:47:26 am
Just to update, I lodged an appeal with the London tribunals E&TA last week to represent myself at an in person hearing. I stated it was unclear which of the statutory requirements of TMA 2004 this dropped kerb satisfied and that my previous representations had not been considered. I then said I would rely on Lambeth's submissions and would await the hearing which was scheduled for the end of the month.

I got an email this morning stating that Lambeth will not contest my appeal.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: LemonTootski on September 29, 2024, 10:06:00 pm
Hi, really sorry for the late reply to this topic, but I'll help out the best way I can.
This 'contravention' is NOT enforceable. This case is an exact carbon copy of the previous Hopton Road case (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/27-parked-in-a-special-enforcement-area-adjacent-to-a-footway-lowered-streatham/) listed on this forum.

Here is the representation I made:
(https://i.ibb.co/T1Jcg4y/rep-redact.png)

Of course, Lambeth Council naturally reject this rep with a boilerplate rejection letter:
(https://i.ibb.co/Jy93Jtf/1new.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/wsm0PVB/2-new.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/68ZbT3q/3new.jpg)
I then appealed, and it went to adjudication London Tribunals ETA.

At this point, I  kindly received the help of knowledgeable Board member @Pastmybest (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=156). I had to write a simple signed letter authorising @Pastmybest (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=156) to act as my representative at the tribunal in the matter of the PCN number xxxxxxx.

I then had to send:
- PCN
- NTO (Notice to Owner)
- My representation in full without redaction (the one you see above).

Pastmybest elected to attend the tribunal by telephone - there is no need for you to attend in person once you have delegated authorisation to him.

In my case, there were two technical arguments that pertain to the councils duty to both consider the representations and also their duty to provide information to the tribunal within a 7 day timescale.

Approximately two days later, after @Pastmybest (https://www.ftla.uk/index.php?action=profile;u=156) notified the tribunal that he was acting as my representative, I strangely out of the blue received notification that Lambeth Council were dropping the issue and no longer contesting the case:
(https://i.ibb.co/JdZVBPK/33333.png)
And that was that. Essentially, the whole Hopton Road honeytrap can be summed up in one sentence:

"Never ascribe to malice what can be put down to incompetence."

Hope this helps, and good luck with your case, and let us know the outcome.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: John U.K. on September 26, 2024, 04:28:10 pm
That's interesting - not come across it before and thanks for digging it out.

I wonder if authorities mostly comply with it as I wonder if the tribunal(s) close the case in favour of the appellant when then don't. It's not something, I presume, that can be ascertained from the evidence pack.


Thanks really to @Pastmybest. who started this hare running.
I assume the letter enclosing the Evidence Pack may carry a date, or the e-mail to which it is attached?I'll start a thread in the Flame Pit, which may be more appropriate as it may affect multiple cases.

Playing devil's advocate: if it does apply in London, the tribunal may plead that it allows latitude to appellants, so why not to EAs?
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: stamfordman on September 26, 2024, 04:21:24 pm
That's interesting - not come across it before and thanks for digging it out.

I wonder if authorities mostly comply with it as I wonder if the tribunal(s) close the case in favour of the appellant when then don't. It's not something, I presume, that can be ascertained from the evidence pack. 
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: John U.K. on September 26, 2024, 04:09:48 pm
Case Reference: 224043292A

I have a hearing scheduled for 23rd October. Received confirmation this morning. It says that I should receive Lambeth's submissions at least three days prior but I thought they had to submit their evidence within 7 days of me lodging the appeal?

I'm relatively confident but was not prepared to pay for representation.

Where did you get this 7 days from? If the council contests it has to send the pack in reasonable time, at least 5 days before hearing I think.

@stamfordman:
It took a lot of digging, but eventually I found in
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2022/9780348232752/schedule/1

Quote
Action upon receipt of notice of appeal and copy of such notice

3.—(1) Upon receiving a notice of appeal the proper officer
(of the tribunal)
Quote
must

(a)send an acknowledgement of its receipt to the appellant, and

(b)enter particulars of the appeal in the register.

(2) If the proper officer is satisfied that the notice of appeal is made in accordance with paragraph 2, the proper officer must send to the enforcement authority—

(a)a copy of the notice of appeal, and

(b)the directions extending the period for appealing (if any).

(3) Where an enforcement authority receives a copy of a notice of appeal sent to it under sub-paragraph (2), the authority must, within seven days of the day on which it receives that copy, deliver to the proper officer of a copy of each of the following—

(a)the original representations,

(b)the relevant penalty charge notice (if any), and

(c)the notice of rejection.

I am not sure if there are separate regulations for the London Tribunal.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on September 26, 2024, 02:52:15 pm
https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/27-parked-in-a-special-enforcement-area-adjacent-to-a-footway-lowered-streatham/msg28819/#msg28819
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: stamfordman on September 26, 2024, 02:07:32 pm
From PMB in the other thread:

'Then I would argue that the council had not complied with the requirement to submit to the tribunal a true copy of the PCN the representation and the notice of rejection within 7 days of being notified of an appeal'

What other thread?
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on September 26, 2024, 01:30:41 pm
From PMB in the other thread:

'Then I would argue that the council had not complied with the requirement to submit to the tribunal a true copy of the PCN the representation and the notice of rejection within 7 days of being notified of an appeal'
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: stamfordman on September 26, 2024, 12:35:23 pm
Case Reference: 224043292A

I have a hearing scheduled for 23rd October. Received confirmation this morning. It says that I should receive Lambeth's submissions at least three days prior but I thought they had to submit their evidence within 7 days of me lodging the appeal?

I'm relatively confident but was not prepared to pay for representation.

Where did you get this 7 days from? If the council contests it has to send the pack in reasonable time, at least 5 days before hearing I think.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on September 26, 2024, 10:22:21 am
Case Reference: 224043292A

I have a hearing scheduled for 23rd October. Received confirmation this morning. It says that I should receive Lambeth's submissions at least three days prior but I thought they had to submit their evidence within 7 days of me lodging the appeal?

I'm relatively confident but was not prepared to pay for representation.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Hippocrates on September 25, 2024, 10:47:12 pm
Hi, is anyone else able to advise with my representation please? I will be representing myself but just need a bit of help with my wording in the E&TA appeal. Am going to use a similar tactic to PMB which recently resulted in a DNC from Lambeth for the same contravention at this location: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/27-parked-in-a-special-enforcement-area-adjacent-to-a-footway-lowered-streatham/msg28819/#msg28819

Full submissions should be submitted upon receipt of the council's evidence pack. I trust you are confident to represent yourself? PMB and cp8759 have given you very sound advice. What is the the other case number please?
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: stamfordman on September 25, 2024, 12:16:11 pm
If they are going to contest they are given time to prepare an evidence pack that they copy to you and the tribunal. I don't know what that deadline is but I think it can be not long before the hearing.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on September 25, 2024, 11:43:45 am
Sorry only just saw your reply. When I logged in to the London tribunal website yesterday, the only option was to 'appeal online' which I did and requested a personal hearing. I said that Lambeth had not addressed my representations and that it was unclear which aspect of the section 86 of TMA 2004 the DK fulfils. Also that I will rely on their submissions in the hearing.

I have received a confirmation saying that the tribunal will consider my appeal and let me know if it's accepted within 7 days. Does that mean Lambeth have to submit their representations within this time or is it only after it's accepted? It says I can submit additional evidence up to 7 days prior to the hearing.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: stamfordman on September 24, 2024, 04:39:09 pm
Unless things have changed you don't need to write an appeal yet - just register the appeal with the tribunal and opt for a telephone hearing.

I doubt they will contest it anyway.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on September 24, 2024, 03:57:23 pm
last call for any free advice please?
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on September 23, 2024, 11:29:53 am
Hi, is anyone else able to advise with my representation please? I will be representing myself but just need a bit of help with my wording in the E&TA appeal. Am going to use a similar tactic to PMB which recently resulted in a DNC from Lambeth for the same contravention at this location: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/27-parked-in-a-special-enforcement-area-adjacent-to-a-footway-lowered-streatham/msg28819/#msg28819
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on September 12, 2024, 01:27:07 pm
Thank you
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Pastmybest on September 12, 2024, 01:09:50 pm
It's a boiler plate rejection as Stamf says, but more than that it does not deal with the representation in any way. That is a ground of appeal of it's self

I will go through the thread and draft an appeal in the next few days remind me if i have not done so by next week
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: stamfordman on September 10, 2024, 05:55:05 pm
It's just a boilerplate rejection which ignores your reps and which they hope will buy you off with the discount, but should be an easy win. I would register an appeal with the tribunal - I doubt they will contest.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on September 10, 2024, 04:20:00 pm
Yes please, just received the inevitable rejection of my formal appeal:
https://imgur.com/a/AvCbyB7
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Pastmybest on August 23, 2024, 02:37:55 pm
Thats fine send  it. I will deal with any appeal if you wish
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on August 23, 2024, 02:06:03 pm
Thanks for your help with this. Am intending to submit the following representation via the online portal:

Dear London Borough of Lambeth,

It is only a contravention to park adjacent to a dropped kerb if the kerb has been lowered for one of the statutory purposes listed in section 86 of the Traffic Management Act 2004. It is obvious from the Google Street View history that this particular dropped kerb was originally installed as a bin access ramp for the bins stored in Stanedge Court, see the image from July 2008 at https://maps.app.goo.gl/TSeQBmMtahEK7yreA

However by September 2020 access to this lowered kerb from Stanedge Court had been blocked off by the installation of a permanent fence, as shown by the image at https://maps.app.goo.gl/xt9in4vkLXkPxhxs6

That fence was present at the time of the alleged contravention and as far as I am aware, is still there.

As such the kerb no longer fulfills any of the statutory purposes at section 86 of the TMA 2004, even if one accepts that the kerb was ever lowered for the purposes of the statute.

I refer you to the case of Abigail Mendy v London Borough of Enfield (2160476330, 4 January 2017) and while I know councils love the mantra that first-instance cases are not binding, there is simply no reason to suppose the tribunal would reach a different conclusion in this instance.

In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur, and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Pastmybest on August 22, 2024, 01:36:05 pm
I have had a re read of the thread the challenge and the rejection of the challenge. We want them to maintain their position that the reason for the DK was to allow access to the building.

With that in mind send the same again but omit the paragraph about the cycle access

post exactly what you intend to send here before you send
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: H C Andersen on August 19, 2024, 10:18:57 pm
OP, it's nothing to do with a traffic order because the prohibition is statutory.

PMB will guide you.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Pastmybest on August 19, 2024, 06:01:19 pm
Please can someone help with this? Time is running out. Or should I use just the same response as my original appeal? Thanks

You have until Tuesday of next week the 27th I will draft something in the next day or so. If you do not hear from me by Thursday send me a PM to prompt me
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on August 18, 2024, 05:39:42 pm
Please can someone help with this? Time is running out. Or should I use just the same response as my original appeal? Thanks
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on August 07, 2024, 12:35:19 pm
Please see link below for NTO:
https://imgur.com/a/UpnCMd5
Title: Re: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Grant Urismo on August 07, 2024, 11:15:59 am
I'm sure we can help, but we need to see the NTO so we know what we are responding to. All sides of all pages please!
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on August 07, 2024, 10:49:37 am
Thanks have now received the NTO. Can anyone help me with making representation please? On the grounds that 'the traffic order which is alleged to have been contravened was invalid'.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Pastmybest on July 25, 2024, 11:23:46 am
How long do I have to formally appeal once I've received the notice to owner?

 28 days from date of service. IS THE V5C registered at the correct address. Check don't assume
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on July 24, 2024, 08:49:50 pm
How long do I have to formally appeal once I've received the notice to owner?
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on July 24, 2024, 08:47:56 pm
How long do I have to formally appeal once I've received the notice to keeper?
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Hippocrates on July 21, 2024, 03:52:01 pm
DK=dropped kerb.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on July 21, 2024, 03:38:28 pm
Sorry what is DK? So worth formally appealing once notice to owner is received?
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Pastmybest on July 18, 2024, 06:45:49 pm
And i would be surprised if they do this one as they have already committed to the reason for the DK as being vehicular access
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on July 18, 2024, 03:27:47 pm
17 Hopton Rd
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZFfm4dLfA1HPVTzB6?g_st=ac

It is the same location/PCN as another poster who took Lambeth to tribunal earlier this month. They did not contest the appeal:

https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/27-parked-in-a-special-enforcement-area-adjacent-to-a-footway-lowered-streatham/msg28819/#msg28819
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Enceladus on July 17, 2024, 09:59:57 am
Please post up a GSV (Google street View) location where you parked. Hopton Road seems to be quite long and meandering. I can't find the location.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on July 17, 2024, 09:38:44 am
Ok just received a rejection for my appeal. Interesting that they have specifically stated 'that it has been recorded that your vehicle had been parked obscuring the access to the building'.
https://imgur.com/a/YUMqoAo
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: cp8759 on June 18, 2024, 01:00:46 am
When you say there is no contravention in the photos do you mean in terms of potential access that I am blocking? I noticed in response to the other member's appeal for same PCN, Lambeth said that the dropped kerb is necessary to allow pedestrian and bike access to the road etc.
That's just a BS response from the council, it's blatantly obvious that that kerb was lowered for the access that has since been blocked off. There is no cycle path on that pavement nor is there a kerb lowered for pedestrians on the other side of the road. If you look at the kerb stones here https://maps.app.goo.gl/vWS3ufRG5ATvGtqS7 they're not lowered to meet the carriageway.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on June 17, 2024, 11:35:47 am
Thanks, will let you know how I get on.

When you say there is no contravention in the photos do you mean in terms of potential access that I am blocking? I noticed in response to the other member's appeal for same PCN, Lambeth said that the dropped kerb is necessary to allow pedestrian and bike access to the road etc.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: cp8759 on June 16, 2024, 01:39:01 am
Council photos do not show any contravention:

(https://i.imgur.com/NBYKFeq.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/CCDLCIf.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dV6hOrn.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZdlKkt5.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/b4KX1iU.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zUGNBBT.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8VyCSBE.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/bM0jsJw.jpeg)

@gge12 you can use the same draft I prepared for the other thread (https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/27-parked-in-a-special-enforcement-area-adjacent-to-a-footway-lowered-streatham/):

Dear London Borough of Lambeth,

It is only a contravention to park adjacent to a dropped kerb if the kerb has been lowered for one of the statutory purposes listed in section 86 of the Traffic Management Act 2004. It is obvious from the Google Street View history that this particular dropped kerb was originally installed as a bin access ramp for the bins stored in Stanedge Court, see the image from July 2008 at https://maps.app.goo.gl/TSeQBmMtahEK7yreA

It might have been arguable that the lowered kerb could also be used by cyclists entering or leaving the carriageway, and there is nothing to suggest that a "dual purpose" lowered kerb could not be enforced under section 86.

However by September 2020 access to this lowered kerb from Stanedge Court had been blocked off by the installation of a permanent fence, as shown by the image at https://maps.app.goo.gl/xt9in4vkLXkPxhxs6

That fence was present at the time of the alleged contravention and as far as I am aware, is still there.

As such the kerb no longer fulfills any of the statutory purposes at section 86 of the TMA 2004, even if one accepts that the kerb was ever lowered for the purposes of the statute.

I refer you to the case of Abigail Mendy v London Borough of Enfield (2160476330, 4 January 2017) and while I know councils love the mantra that first-instance cases are not binding, there is simply no reason to suppose the tribunal would reach a different conclusion in this instance.

In light of the above the alleged contravention did not occur, and the penalty charge must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Submit this online and please make sure to keep a screenshot of the confirmation page. It seems likely the council will reject, but as with the other thread it's hard to see how the council could win this at the tribunal.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on June 12, 2024, 09:03:57 am
Ok let's try again:

(https://i.imgur.com/0bQ7k0T.jpeg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8eTRomm.jpeg)
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: Hippocrates on June 11, 2024, 10:17:57 pm
1. You have redacted the PCN and VRM.
2. You have not included the second side of the PCN.

We need all this info. to help you.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on June 10, 2024, 01:51:15 pm
Thanks please see PCN below:

https://imgur.com/a/zzgw837
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: cp8759 on June 10, 2024, 12:37:52 am
@gge12 I have split out this topic from the other thread, please post up the documents required by the guidance which John U.K. has pointed you to.
Title: Re: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: John U.K. on June 06, 2024, 03:56:36 pm
I just received a PCN this morning in this exact same spot in front of the dropped kerb on Hopton Road in Streatham. Glad I found this forum as I will be appealing.

Please to have a read of https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/read-this-first-before-posting-your-case!-this-section-is-for-council-tfl-dartme/

and to start your own thread.
Title: Re: 27 - Parked in a special enforcement area adjacent to a footway, lowered ... STREATHAM
Post by: gge12 on June 06, 2024, 03:43:47 pm
I just received a PCN this morning in this exact same spot in front of the dropped kerb on Hopton Road in Streatham. Glad I found this forum as I will be appealing.