Free Traffic Legal Advice

Live cases legal advice => Civil penalty charge notices (Councils, TFL and so on) => Topic started by: Chutzpah on July 18, 2023, 03:00:59 pm

Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: cp8759 on October 29, 2023, 02:48:30 pm
If this is the case, is it best to contact the council myself, or just wait and see if they ever reply to me and presume the matter settled if not?
I would contact the council and ask if they've issued a response. It's not the end of the world if the notice of rejection has been lost in the post, but it's best to dealt with this as soon as possible as that could save all the hassle of going through the traffic enforcement centre process.

If they have issued a rejection, ask if they can email you a copy.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Incandescent on October 27, 2023, 07:24:58 pm
The regulations are very clear: -
Regulation 8

Quote
(9) It is the duty of a charging authority to whom representations are duly made under this regulation—

(a)to consider them and any supporting evidence which the person making them provides; and
(b)within the period of 56 days beginning with the date on which the representations were served on it, to serve on that person notice of its decision as to whether or not it accepts—
(i)that one or more of the grounds in paragraph (3) has been established; or
(ii)that there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the penalty charge notice should be cancelled.
(10) Where a charging authority fails to comply with paragraph (9) within the period of 56 days mentioned there—

(a)it is deemed to have accepted the representations made under paragraph (1) and to have served notice to that effect under regulation 9(1);
and
(b)it must as soon as reasonably practicable refund any sum paid in respect of the penalty charge notice and (if applicable) the road user charge.
The applicable date for counting the 56 days is the date the representations were received by the authority, not the date then were sent. If the submission is done on-line then the date of sending and receiving the reps is the same.  So I suggest that when the period is well over the 56 days, you contact the council to tell them you have received no response to your reps, and the 56 days allowed by the regulations has expired. Quote the clause in the regulation that deems they have accepted your reps.

Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Chutzpah on October 27, 2023, 06:57:35 pm
Just to resurrect this thread, I put in my appeals and kept the email confirmation from the council.

I've never heard anything further, and if I return to the appeal page the outstanding amount is still the discounted amount (screenshot below is from a few minutes ago today)

https://ibb.co/6DxWPgS

If I'm reading paragraph 9 of regulation 8 correctly here (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/1783/regulation/8/made), the council had until the 18th September to reply to my original appeal (submitted on 24th July).

If this is the case, is it best to contact the council myself, or just wait and see if they ever reply to me and presume the matter settled if not?
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: cp8759 on July 25, 2023, 10:22:06 pm
It's the same photos on both PCNs, the photo on the earlier PCN is just zoomed-in for some reason. It matters not, you now have a compelling case, draft reps:

Dear Bristol City Council,

I challenge liability for PCN BS00000000 on the basis that the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

The PCN carries an 0870 premium rate telephone number, and I contend that as in Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022) this amounts to an excessive demand. While I appreciate other payment methods are available, binding authority from the High Court in the case of London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin) determined that where one payment method carries a surcharge, the availability of other payment methods is irrelevant and the penalty demanded is excessive.

It follows that the penalty charge must be cancelled.

I also challenge liability on the basis of a procedural impropriety. The council served a PCN dated 10 July 2023, then a few days later it issued a further PCN for the same contravention but with a date of issue of 17 July 2023.

Regulation 8(4) of The Road User Charging Schemes (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2013 defines a procedural impropriety as "the service of any notice or document, otherwise than... in accordance with the conditions subject to which or at the time or during the period when it is authorised or required by these Regulations".

Service of a second penalty charge with a different date of issue in respect of the same allegation is service of a document which was nether authorised nor required by the regulations, that is a procedural impropriety on the basis of which the PCN must be cancelled.

Yours faithfully,


Don't forget to upload a copy of Paul Bateman v Derbyshire, and keep a screenshot of the confirmation screen.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: cp8759 on July 25, 2023, 09:59:57 pm
So send me a PM please?
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Chutzpah on July 25, 2023, 09:41:19 pm
The PCN and the plate are the same in both letters.

Happy to share by private message, but I don't want to leave them public if that's ok.

(A number plate is still personal data)
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: cp8759 on July 25, 2023, 09:30:42 pm
You need to give us the PCN number and the number plate please. There's no point in hiding this, the council has this information already.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Chutzpah on July 25, 2023, 06:51:57 pm
As below

https://ibb.co/LtMDTs0
https://ibb.co/4Z0jb0S
https://ibb.co/P69gGWf
https://ibb.co/8mNvnLJ
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: cp8759 on July 25, 2023, 06:39:00 pm
Show us this new PCN please.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Chutzpah on July 25, 2023, 11:38:30 am
Just as a note, I sent the reps yesterday, I'll keep you updated.

I received another PCN today, dated the 19th July, with the same PCN number but different photos (this time of my car). All details otherwise the same, so no idea if they realised the original photos they were sending out were wrong and reissued with new issue and service dates.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: cp8759 on July 20, 2023, 10:09:46 pm
Bristol doesn't put the video online.

For now I would just send this https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-notices-(councils-tfl-and-so-on)/bristol-clean-air-zone-pcn-17j-a4-ring-road-hotwell-road-(caz0001)-(route-to-bri/msg974/#msg974 and see what comes back.

Bristol City Council hasn't contested any CAZ appeals I have filed this year, so I'm not sure they want to fight it out.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Chutzpah on July 20, 2023, 11:37:52 am
To be clear, they have a cropped photo of my numberplate.

But the two images of cars aren't mine.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Incandescent on July 20, 2023, 10:07:59 am
I think we'd better see the video to clear away all doubt. BTW, photos are not obligatory on the PCN, but I don't think that would excuse them putting in the wrong car if you went to adjudication.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: smart_fortwo on July 20, 2023, 02:06:57 am
Hang on a minute - you say the photos on the PCN are not of your car? The PCN states those images are extracted from images which in the opinion of the Council establish the contravention. But the image extracts don't include your car? Isn't that all a bit shaky?
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Chutzpah on July 19, 2023, 09:58:26 pm
Cheers, here's the other pages

https://ibb.co/McLSS8H
https://ibb.co/znQsSZC
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: cp8759 on July 19, 2023, 10:26:25 am
Let's see the other pages of the PCN please. They've obviously made some recent changes so we might as well check the whole document, but the 0870 issue still seems to be present.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: John U.K. on July 19, 2023, 07:26:41 am
Still using 0870 'phone number.
Title: Re: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Incandescent on July 18, 2023, 10:56:49 pm
If the PCN issues have been addressed by Bristol as you say, then there soesn't seem to be much else to support an appeal. Hopefully our learned administrator, (CP8759), will comment soon.
Title: Bristol CAZ
Post by: Chutzpah on July 18, 2023, 03:00:59 pm
Cross-posting from Pepipoo as I wasn't aware of the recent site issues over there.

I took the wrong turning a few weeks back in Bristol, realised my error and turned around at first opportunity. Realise now I've received this that I drove in the CAZ for about 50 metres.

Looking at previous posts on here/Pepipoo, they have amended the letter template so they are mentioning that the 14 day period and 28 day period is from date of service.

The pictures on the middle and right hand side aren't of my car (either of the cars shown), but I assume that's immaterial. The left is my plate.

Is it still worth appealing citing Paul Bateman v Derbyshire County Council (DJ00037-2209, 10 November 2022)? (as per other posts). It's unclear if that is proving persuasive at appeal.

https://ibb.co/DfyCRQg

https://ibb.co/mRFhgMC

The other two pages are the appeal form, I can post if relevant but I assumed they weren't.